Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 20 posts - 1,141 through 1,160 (of 1,323 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #315525
    terraricca
    Participant

    K

    Quote
    The words “NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN” deny that Jesus can set a person free from sin. It is necessary to believe that you can be set free for the one who doubts cannot expect to receive anything from Jehovah.

    You can see this is true because those that love seek to justify their actions while those that love Jehovah seek to love as he does.

    you say;;deny that Jesus can set a person free from sin. “” this is not what I said and what I said is true;PS 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother
    Or give to God a ransom for him—

    only Christ the son of God that came from above from the father could give us salvation of our sins.

    Quote
    You can see this is true because those that love seek to justify their actions while those that love Jehovah seek to love as he does.

    Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

    do you think that Paul was teaching justification when he said those words in verse 10 ???

    #315536
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    This is what the KJV states.

    Psalm 49:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
    7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned.

    Colossians 1:10 teaches how to love as Jehovah does; a lesson that is the sum of Scripture.

    #315554
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,17:28)
    T,

    This is what the KJV states.

    Psalm 49:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
    7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned.

    Colossians 1:10 teaches how to love as Jehovah does; a lesson that is the sum of Scripture.


    K

    look back in the start of our conversation and you can see you are going out of track ,your answer does not even make sense

    #315619
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,06:54)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,01:21)
    Hi Kerwin and Mike,

    Jesus was a living existential paradox.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Ed J.

    Scripture cannot be broken.  A paradox is a break, lack of information is not.


    Hi Kerwin,

    A paradox can be and is true in many cases.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315629
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,09:27)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,06:54)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,01:21)
    Hi Kerwin and Mike,

    Jesus was a living existential paradox.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Ed J.

    Scripture cannot be broken.  A paradox is a break, lack of information is not.


    Hi Kerwin,

    A paradox can be and is true in many cases.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J.

    A paradox is a contradiction.

    Mary did not come to exist but that Jesus existed first.
    Jesus did not come to exist but that Mary existed first.

    According to those two statement neither Mary or Jesus exist as the other had to exist before they could.

    If they exist it is a contradiction and a contradiction is a break in Scripture.

    Another example is:

    Jehovah cannot be the God of those that are dead.
    Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac whose bodies were dead.
    If you claim they are dead in all ways then you have a contradiction and Jesus explicitly stated that could not be.

    #315633
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 11 2012,06:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,17:28)
    T,

    This is what the KJV states.

    Psalm 49:6-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
    7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned.

    Colossians 1:10 teaches how to love as Jehovah does; a lesson that is the sum of Scripture.


    K

    look back in the start of our conversation and you can see you are going out of track ,your answer does not even make sense


    T,

    Where do you consider the start of our conversation to be?

    #315641
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,15:07)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,09:27)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,06:54)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,01:21)
    Hi Kerwin and Mike,

    Jesus was a living existential paradox.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Ed J.

    Scripture cannot be broken.  A paradox is a break, lack of information is not.


    Hi Kerwin,

    A paradox can be and is true in many cases.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J.

    A paradox is a contradiction.

    Mary did not come to exist but that Jesus existed first.
    Jesus did not come to exist but that Mary existed first.

    According to those two statement neither Mary or Jesus exist as the other had to exist before they could.

    If they exist it is a contradiction and a contradiction is a break in Scripture.

    Another example is:

    Jehovah cannot be the God of those that are dead.
    Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac whose bodies were dead.
    If you claim they are dead in all ways then you have a contradiction and Jesus explicitly stated that could not be.


    Hi Kerwin, not so.

    Jesus is called 'a king' yet he died a servant.
      (is this not Paradoxical enough for you?)


    How about these…

    “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
    and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” (Matt 16:25)

    “whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.” (Mark 10:44)


    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315646
    kerwin
    Participant

    Ed J.

    How about these…

    “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
    and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” (Matt 16:25)

    “whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.” (Mark 10:44)

    Neither of those is a contradiction as a godly king serves God and his people and a human that receives eternal life must first surrender the life of this world and those things that belong to it.

    #315647
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,16:50)
    Ed J.

    How about these…

    “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
    and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” (Matt 16:25)

    “whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.” (Mark 10:44)

    Neither of those is a contradiction as a godly king serves God and his people and a human that receives eternal life must first surrender the life of this world and those things that belong to it.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Then you know the truth of paradoxes.
    Jesus was a living existential paradox.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315706
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2012,01:05)
    T8,

    We are instructed to walk according to the spirit.  The Spirit that we are instructed to walk by is neither the soul, as you do not walk by the soul, nor is it the on man walks by, as man falls short of the glory of God.  I do not see a spirit short of God's glory returning to Jehovah as did not come from him.  Our souls did.


    Is spirit and breath the same word? I thought it was.

    Anyway, for now I offer this:

    Job 32:8
    But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

    I Corinthians 12:13
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit

    I haven't got time to check, but I remember learning that baptism was an ongoing thing. So it meant that we had an eternal gift of the Spirit. A drink that is given to us always so that we will not thirst again.

    So the difference here is that the initial spirit or breath give us life and understanding, but not eternal life. Being given the Spirit continuous (baptism) is what eternal life is. As the Spirit is not taken away from us.

    Psalm 51:11
    Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

    #315736
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 12 2012,03:53)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2012,01:05)
    T8,

    We are instructed to walk according to the spirit.  The Spirit that we are instructed to walk by is neither the soul, as you do not walk by the soul, nor is it the on man walks by, as man falls short of the glory of God.  I do not see a spirit short of God's glory returning to Jehovah as did not come from him.  Our souls did.


    Is spirit and breath the same word? I thought it was.

    Anyway, for now I offer this:

    Job 32:8
    But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

    I Corinthians 12:13
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit

    I haven't got time to check, but I remember learning that baptism was an ongoing thing. So it meant that we had an eternal gift of the Spirit. A drink that is given to us always so that we will not thirst again.

    So the difference here is that the initial spirit or breath give us life and understanding, but not eternal life. Being given the Spirit continuous (baptism) is what eternal life is. As the Spirit is not taken away from us.

    Psalm 51:11
    Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.


    t8

    good description

    #315779
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8………..Right the Spirit is what give us our intellects it is not a person but it is Cognate thoughts, rather clean or unclean rather holy or unholy, spirits are not persons they are what is (IN) Persons, A Living Soul is a “separate” individual Person who has Spirits in it. A dead Soul is a a “separate” Body with no Spirits in it. Just that simple. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………..gene

    #315782
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,17:28)
    T,

    This is what the KJV states.

    7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Jesus is not one of “them” for he has never sinned.


    Pierre's version is correct, Kerwin.  The Hebrew says “no man” ('iysh).

    How will your explanation change now?

    #315784
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,23:53)
    Jesus also point blank tells the Jews he existed before Abraham existed.  But you are correct, Pierre:  The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.


    Mike,

    That is what you have been brought to want Jesus to state; it is not what Jesus was teaching.


    John 8 NWT
    57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”

    58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

    The teaching is easy enough for a third grader to understand it, Kerwin.  In fact, the teaching is backed up by more than 50 other scriptures.

    But, like I told Pierre, The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.

    #315829
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2012,22:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,23:53)
    Jesus also point blank tells the Jews he existed before Abraham existed.  But you are correct, Pierre:  The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.


    Mike,

    That is what you have been brought to want Jesus to state; it is not what Jesus was teaching.


    John 8 NWT
    57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”

    58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

    The teaching is easy enough for a third grader to understand it, Kerwin.  In fact, the teaching is backed up by more than 50 other scriptures.

    But, like I told Pierre, The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.


    Mike,

    The word “existence” is not in John 8:58 as “to become/became” is the best choice as it does not put anything in the text except making it past or present.  “Was” may be an acceptable alternative of “became”.  “I am”, “I am he” is present tense.

    #315884
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin………You are right apsolutly right. The man Jesus is the one God was speaking of , he is the heir of his   father king David's throne. Jesus plainly said he was the root and offspring of king David. No matter how hard these deceived separatist   Try to separate Jesus' human identity with his human Father and us they Can't , without destroying the integrity of our scriptures.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

    #315885
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2012,09:18)
    Kerwin………You are right apsolutly right. The man Jesus is the one God was speaking of , he is the heir of his   father king David's throne. Jesus plainly said he was the root and offspring of king David. No matter how hard these deceived separatist   Try to separate Jesus' human identity with his human Father and us they Can't , without destroying the integrity of our scriptures.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene


    Our scriptures :D :D

    #316065
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,18:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2012,22:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,03:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,23:53)
    Jesus also point blank tells the Jews he existed before Abraham existed.  But you are correct, Pierre:  The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.


    Mike,

    That is what you have been brought to want Jesus to state; it is not what Jesus was teaching.


    John 8 NWT
    57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”

    58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

    The teaching is easy enough for a third grader to understand it, Kerwin.  In fact, the teaching is backed up by more than 50 other scriptures.

    But, like I told Pierre, The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.


    Mike,

    The word “existence” is not in John 8:58 as “to become/became” is the best choice as it does not put anything in the text except making it past or present.  “Was” may be an acceptable alternative of “became”.  “I am”, “I am he” is present tense.


    Kerwin,

    You are once again playing games in your zealous effort to thwart any scriptures that teach what you don't WANT them to teach.

    Doesn't “Abraham became” mean basically the same thing as “Abraham came into being”?   ???

    And as for the present tense “I am”, look once again to John 14:9, as it is rendered in virtually every English translation there is, for the answer to your dilemma.

    These are called “idiomatic problems” that occur when translating one language to another, Kerwin.  If you can HONESTLY tell me that “I have been” is a COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE translation of the PRESENT TENSE “ego eimi” in John 14:9, then you will have a leg to stand on with John 8:58.

    So?  CAN YOU tell me that “I have been” in 14:9 is “faulty”, or that it deters from the teaching?  YES or NO?

    #316081
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin…….Yes Jesus existed in scriptures before Abraham and is before him in importance also. That was Jesus' point it had nothing to do with His existence as a “Sentinel” Being of any kind. These people affirm that Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth , but have absolutely no idea of what they are saying , they must force the text to say what in fact it is not saying and they do this over and over again and again, they have bought into the false teachings of the Trinitarians who as they are preexistences preachers that causes the separation of Jesus' Identity with the human race They will get their teachings thrown in their own faces at the return of Jesus, He will say to them well and Good , you who are not like me, them i am not like you either then right? so be gone from me, a just sentence for those who try to separate Jesus for our own Identity as Human Beings. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………….gene

    #316083
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Does this verse “mean” that David knew Jesus was of more importance too…

    “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
    until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall
    send the rod of thy strength (HolySpirit) out of Zion: rule
    thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Viewing 20 posts - 1,141 through 1,160 (of 1,323 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account