Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • Author
    Posts
  • #315281
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,12:09)
    k

    Quote
    * With his life Jesus revealed that a human being can overcome sin by the power of Jehovah through faith; even though tempted as is common to man.

    you do not believe in scriptures right ??? that is why you do not beleive in them ,

    NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN OR HE IS WITHOUT SIN ,EVEN IF HE HIS A ;PROPHET,A SAINT,OR MOSES HIMSELF


    Hi Pierre, what do you have to say about these Scriptures?

    1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he
    that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
    Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315287
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:12)
    K

    Quote
    I may have used words that are rarely used, therefore hard to understand.  If so then please let me know.

    USELESS COMMENT


    T,

    I will assume you understood my words.

    #315288
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:04)
    k

    Quote
    The Spirit of the Son is the Spirit of the Christ is the Spirit of the God is the the Holy Spirit as there is only one Spirit in the unity of the Spirit.

    how can anyone understand this ????


    T,

    Do you understand the begets?

    Would you prefer I use “also known as” instead?

    #315289
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:09)
    k

    Quote
    * With his life Jesus revealed that a human being can overcome sin by the power of Jehovah through faith; even though tempted as is common to man.

    you do not believe in scriptures right ??? that is why you do not beleive in them ,

    NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN OR HE IS WITHOUT SIN ,EVEN IF HE HIS A ;PROPHET,A SAINT,OR MOSES HIMSELF


    T,

    You say those words because the evil one has used them to trick you.

    I ask you what words do those that love sin want to hear:
    1} They are saved in their sins
    2} They are saved from their sins.

    #315297
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:12)
    K

    Quote
    I believe one aspect of God's Spirit is Jehovah's creative force; which is why it moved upon the face of the waters in Genesis 1:2.

    DO ,I CARE OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE ? NO,;;SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES ;;;IS GOD DIVIDED ???


    T,

    Aspect does not mean divided but instead speaks of a particular role of the Spirit's many roles. Jehovah uses his own Spirit to act on and communicate with creation. In this was it has been being an mediator between God and man. Jesus inherited it and so has become the Son of God.

    1 Peter 1:10-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    The Spirit of Christ, aka the Spirit of God, was in the Prophets of old communicating with them what was to come.

    #315347
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,22:54)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,12:04)
    k

    Quote
    The Spirit of the Son is the Spirit of the Christ is the Spirit of the God is the the Holy Spirit as there is only one Spirit in the unity of the Spirit.

    how can anyone understand this ????


    Hi Pierre,

    The “Spirit of Christ” is of God.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    my spirit is also of God as long as I stay with the scriptures and follow his will,

    #315350
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,00:51)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:12)
    K

    Quote
    I believe one aspect of God's Spirit is Jehovah's creative force; which is why it moved upon the face of the waters in Genesis 1:2.

    DO ,I CARE OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE ? NO,;;SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURES ;;;IS GOD DIVIDED ???


    T,

    Aspect does not mean divided but instead speaks of a particular role of the Spirit's many roles.  Jehovah uses his own Spirit to act on and communicate with creation. In this was it has been being an mediator between God and man.  Jesus inherited it and so has become the Son of God.

    1 Peter 1:10-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    The Spirit of Christ, aka the Spirit of God, was in the Prophets of old communicating with them what was to come.


    k

    Quote
    The Spirit of Christ, aka the Spirit of God, was in the Prophets of old communicating with them what was to come.

    1 Peter 1:10-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    this means that God as made the prophet known in prophecies what is to come ,

    Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
    Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
    Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    #315374
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,05:08)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 09 2012,07:50)
    To All………….Saying Jesus is the root from which Jesse and David came is a total LIE and corruption of scriptures.  Jesus is  (the Root), “OF” or (FROM)  Jesse and King David, He is also the Offspring of them both. Any half intelligent person can understand that.  Trinitarians and preexistences have to twist up that understanding in order to deny Jesus' complete Humanity.  

    They can not believe GOD took a Purely Human Being and Perfected Him, and raised him from the grave, which shows God's work in Humanity, they by this deny God's Glory for his work in Christ Jesus.  These Trinitarians and Preexistences are totally corrupted in their false teachings of the word of God, and they never stop twisting up and corrupting his word.  They are the Blind leading the Blind and are both in a ditch grouping at the walls falsehood.  

    peace and love to you all…………………………………………..gene


    g

    please explain how can a man born of man be pure IN THE EYES OF GOD???

    please do not be a religeous liar and say IT IS A MYSTERY  :D  :D


    Terricca………..You very own word shows how much your false dogmas have decieved you. Jesus said all things were possible with God, and God, said “Be you Holy for i am Holy and Be you Perfect for i am Perfect” and again he said ” I will take out of you the stony heart and give you a heart of “FLESH” and I will write my laws in your inward parts.

    Not to mention Jesus said he was a Son of Man over and over, and i do believe he was a man who did not sin. You trinitarians and preexistences simply can not stop Separating Jesus from his human identity with his Brothers and Sisters can you?

    Tell us Pierre what is a Son of Man mean to you?

    #315415
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,14:40)
    Your claim is not that Jesse and David are decedents of Jesus but that they were created through Jesus.  That idea of yours introduces a time paradox to your teaching…….


    Pierre is simply reading and believing what the scriptures teach, Kerwin.  If there is a “paradox” involved, then it is a paradox taught by the scriptures themselves – and not something made up by Pierre.

    It would seem then that your argument is against what the scriptures actually teach, and not against Pierre for repeating those teachings, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,14:40)
    ………in his name all things are created anew……


    But Col 1:16 says that ALL things WERE created by him – not “all NEW things ARE created by him”.

    And you can argue “aorist tense” until you're blue in the face, Kerwin, but this teaching is not only in Col 1:16.  It is also in John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2. And the words “NEW things” are not used in ANY of those teachings.

    #315416
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2012,18:32)
    …….and so scriptures are true in saying that Christ comes before Jesse because he existed before Jesse,

    the fact that you do not believe in the pre existence of Christ has the son of God and as God first creation does not make untrue…….


    Jesus also point blank tells the Jews he existed before Abraham existed.  But you are correct, Pierre: The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.

    #315417
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2012,07:50)
    To All………….Saying Jesus is the root from which Jesse and David came is a total LIE and corruption of scriptures.  Jesus is  (the Root), “OF” or (FROM)  Jesse and King David, He is also the Offspring of them both. Any half intelligent person can understand that.


    Look at your own words, Gene.  If the word “Root” means “from Jesse and David”, then what do your words “ALSO the offspring” mean?

    If “root” just means the same as “offspring”, then in Revelation 22:16, Jesus was saying, “I am the offspring AND ALSO the offspring of David”.  What sense does that make?

    But if “root” and “offspring” convey DIFFERENT meanings, such as “came before” and “came after”, then your own word “ALSO” makes perfect sense. Because then it would convey that Jesus “came before, AND ALSO came after”.

    See Gene?  If they both mean the same thing, the word “ALSO”, that YOU used, would be useless.  I believe this is God working through your conscience to teach you something.  I believe God caused you to use the word “ALSO” in your post.

    #315427
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,00:17)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:09)
    k

    Quote
    * With his life Jesus revealed that a human being can overcome sin by the power of Jehovah through faith; even though tempted as is common to man.

    you do not believe in scriptures right ??? that is why you do not beleive in them ,

    NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN OR HE IS WITHOUT SIN ,EVEN IF HE HIS A ;PROPHET,A SAINT,OR MOSES HIMSELF


    T,

    You say those words because the evil one has used them to trick you.

    I ask you what words do those that love sin want to hear:
    1} They are saved in their sins
    2} They are saved from their sins.


    K

    I know that but tell me does it says we do not sin ??

    I am not talking of sins that will bring dead

    So you must be perfect right???

    How come I can not see your perfection in your quotes ???
    Y

    #315429
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,00:17)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:09)
    k

    Quote
    * With his life Jesus revealed that a human being can overcome sin by the power of Jehovah through faith; even though tempted as is common to man.

    you do not believe in scriptures right ??? that is why you do not beleive in them ,

    NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN OR HE IS WITHOUT SIN ,EVEN IF HE HIS A ;PROPHET,A SAINT,OR MOSES HIMSELF


    T,

    You say those words because the evil one has used them to trick you.

    I ask you what words do those that love sin want to hear:
    1} They are saved in their sins
    2} They are saved from their sins.


    K

    We are not on tv

    #315477
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2012,00:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,00:17)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:09)
    k

    Quote
    * With his life Jesus revealed that a human being can overcome sin by the power of Jehovah through faith; even though tempted as is common to man.

    you do not believe in scriptures right ??? that is why you do not beleive in them ,

    NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN OR HE IS WITHOUT SIN ,EVEN IF HE HIS A ;PROPHET,A SAINT,OR MOSES HIMSELF


    T,

    You say those words because the evil one has used them to trick you.

    I ask you what words do those that love sin want to hear:
    1} They are saved in their sins
    2} They are saved from their sins.


    K

    We are not on tv


    T,

    I am not saying we are on TV though Jehovah watches us.

    I am saying the teachings of Satan, which are lies, crept into among the church and can lead you astray.

    Satan declares humans will sin
    Jehovah declares he sent Jesus to save us from our sins.

    Those who love sin continue to listen to Satan because his words justify their sinning while those that hunger and thirst for righteousness repent and listen to Jehovah because his words feed and give them drink.

    Jehovah teaches us that IF we sin we have a way to be cleansed of unrighteousness.

    #315478
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2012,00:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2012,00:17)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,07:09)
    k

    Quote
    * With his life Jesus revealed that a human being can overcome sin by the power of Jehovah through faith; even though tempted as is common to man.

    you do not believe in scriptures right ??? that is why you do not beleive in them ,

    NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN OR HE IS WITHOUT SIN ,EVEN IF HE HIS A ;PROPHET,A SAINT,OR MOSES HIMSELF


    T,

    You say those words because the evil one has used them to trick you.

    I ask you what words do those that love sin want to hear:
    1} They are saved in their sins
    2} They are saved from their sins.


    K

    I know that but tell me does it says we do not sin ??

    I am not talking of sins that will bring dead

    So you must be perfect right???

    How come I can not see your perfection in your quotes ???
    Y


    T,

    I can only speak  of the what Jehovah states:

    1) Those that sin are slaves to sin
    2) Anyone that continues to sin is a slave to sin.
    3) Jesus came to set us truly free slavery to sin.

    The words “NO MAN BORN OF MAN CAN CLAIM THAT HE DOES NOT SIN” deny that Jesus can set a person free from sin.  It is necessary to believe that you can be set free for the one who doubts cannot expect to receive anything from Jehovah.

    You can see this is true because those that love seek to justify their actions while those that love Jehovah seek to love as he does.

    #315479
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2012,23:53)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2012,18:32)
    …….and so scriptures are true in saying that Christ comes before Jesse because he existed before Jesse,

    the fact that you do not believe in the pre existence of Christ has the son of God and as God first creation does not make untrue…….


    Jesus also point blank tells the Jews he existed before Abraham existed.  But you are correct, Pierre:  The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.


    Mike,

    That is what you have been brought to want Jesus to state; it is not what Jesus was teaching.

    #315514
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,22:42)

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2012,22:54)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 09 2012,12:04)
    k

    Quote
    The Spirit of the Son is the Spirit of the Christ is the Spirit of the God is the the Holy Spirit as there is only one Spirit in the unity of the Spirit.

    how can anyone understand this ????


    Hi Pierre,

    The “Spirit of Christ” is of God.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    my spirit is also of God as long as I stay with the scriptures and follow his will,


    Hi Pierre,

    Are you giving yourself pats on the back?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315515
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,04:46)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,14:40)
    Your claim is not that Jesse and David are decedents of Jesus but that they were created through Jesus.  That idea of yours introduces a time paradox to your teaching…….


    Pierre is simply reading and believing what the scriptures teach, Kerwin.  If there is a “paradox” involved, then it is a paradox taught by the scriptures themselves – and not something made up by Pierre.

    It would seem then that your argument is against what the scriptures actually teach, and not against Pierre for repeating those teachings, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,14:40)
    ………in his name all things are created anew……


    But Col 1:16 says that ALL things WERE created by him – not “all NEW things ARE created by him”.

    And you can argue “aorist tense” until you're blue in the face, Kerwin, but this teaching is not only in Col 1:16.  It is also in John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2.  And the words “NEW things” are not used in ANY of those teachings.


    Hi Kerwin and Mike,

    Jesus was a living existential paradox.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315516
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,04:53)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 07 2012,18:32)
    …….and so scriptures are true in saying that Christ comes before Jesse because he existed before Jesse,

    the fact that you do not believe in the pre existence of Christ has the son of God and as God first creation does not make untrue…….


    Jesus also point blank tells the Jews he existed before Abraham existed.  But you are correct, Pierre:  The fact that Kerwin chooses not to believe these things for personal reasons doesn't make these things untrue.


    Hi Mike,

    No, “the Jews” did not live before Abraham – Judah(the Jews) was Abraham's great(Isaac) great(Jacob) grandson(Judah).

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #315518
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 11 2012,01:21)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2012,04:46)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,14:40)
    Your claim is not that Jesse and David are decedents of Jesus but that they were created through Jesus.  That idea of yours introduces a time paradox to your teaching…….


    Pierre is simply reading and believing what the scriptures teach, Kerwin.  If there is a “paradox” involved, then it is a paradox taught by the scriptures themselves – and not something made up by Pierre.

    It would seem then that your argument is against what the scriptures actually teach, and not against Pierre for repeating those teachings, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2012,14:40)
    ………in his name all things are created anew……


    But Col 1:16 says that ALL things WERE created by him – not “all NEW things ARE created by him”.

    And you can argue “aorist tense” until you're blue in the face, Kerwin, but this teaching is not only in Col 1:16.  It is also in John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2.  And the words “NEW things” are not used in ANY of those teachings.


    Hi Kerwin and Mike,

    Jesus was a living existential paradox.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J.

    Scripture cannot be broken. A paradox is a break, lack of information is not.

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