Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #308549
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    A child born of a surigate mother is conceived outside her womb. They are conceived in a test tube and then once conceived implanted in the surrigate.

    Conceived, and its Ancient Greek alternative, mean Mary contributed part or all of her genetic material. It is the female version of begot. Elizabeth contributed a part of her genetic material to John the Baptist and Scripture compares that act with Jesus' conception.

    Jesus was not conceived outside the woman as is done with a surigate mother; he was instead conceived inside the woman by the power oof God; acting through his Spirit.

    Psalm 77:3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.

    Do the words “I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and I was overwhelmed. Selah.” have a different meaning than those of Psalms 77:3?

    Psalm 77:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

    Do the words “I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and I made diligent search.” have a different meaning than those of Psalm 77:6?

    Jesus in the same way addressed his spirit as himself.

    #308557
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,17:09)
    Mike,

    Yes, I did forget.

    I agree that context is important to determine what Jesus is speaking of in John 8:58.

    John 8
    King James Version (KJV)

    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Jesus does not explicitly state that he had seen Abraham, and yet the Jews concluded he meant that.

    John 8
    King James Version (KJV)

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    Scriptue calls Abraham a prophet.

    Genesis 20:7
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

    Scripture tells us that Abraham and other prophets searced what and what manner of time the Spirit did signify when it testified of the days of Jesus' sufferings.

     
    1 Peter 1:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    It was revealed to Abraham and the others, even though they were not there, that it was unto a later generation.

    1 Peter 1:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Abraham saw Jesus day and rejoyced, just as other prophets did; even though none of them was there.

    The context of John 8:58 is not the context of John 14:9.  John 14:9 is stating I am currently with you and have been with up to to this time. Apllying the same idea to John 8:58 means Jesus is currently, and has been before Abraham became.  The present element is in John 14:9 even though it speaks of an action that started in the past and continues upto the present.


    Kerwin………this is right on brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

    #308569
    terraricca
    Participant

    k

    Quote
    A child born of a surigate mother is conceived outside her womb. They are conceived in a test tube and then once conceived implanted in the surrigate.

    you mean Human fertilization,OR Artificial insemination (AI) is the deliberate introduction of semen into a female for the purpose of fertilisation, by means other than ejaculation directly into the vagina or oviduct.

    SO ACCORDING TO YOU WHO DID FERTILIZED MARY ???YOUR ANSWER ;
    the power oof God; acting through his Spirit.

    BUT GOD HIS SPIRIT ,AND HIS SON HIS ALSO SPIRIT SO HOW CAN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON BE BORN FROM A WOMAN WHEN ALL CREATION WAS DONE THROUGH HIM ???COL;1;15-20-Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth

    ALL YOUR SCRIPTURES HAVE ABSOLUTLY ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHRIST THE SON OF GOD ,IT IS JUST YOUR INTERPRETATION OF YOUR IMAGINATION,IF YOU WANT WE CAN LOOK AT THEM ONE BY ONE ;

    Quote
    Jesus was not conceived outside the woman as is done with a surigate mother; he was instead conceived inside the woman by the power oof God


    IF NOT TELL ME WHY DID GOD INTERVINE ,WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR HIS INTERVENTION ???SHE COULD HAVE JOSEPH FERTILIZED HER AND BLESS THE CHILD LIKE HE DID MANY TIMES ,SO TELL US ????

    #308591
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,00:09)
    Jesus does not explicitly state that he had seen Abraham, and yet the Jews concluded he meant that.


    That sounds about right, Kerwin……..but is that the part Jesus corrected the Jews about?  NOPE.  I suppose Jesus could have also said, “When did I ever say I had seen Abraham?”  But he didn't correct them about that part, did he?  

    (And in all truthfulness, Jesus might have been one of the angels at Mamre, in which case Abraham and Jesus WOULD HAVE seen each other before.  And even if Jesus was existing alongside his God during Abraham's lifetime, Jesus WOULD HAVE seen Abraham from heaven.  So your claim that Abraham saw him through a vision or prophecy is just that – a claim.  There is no scriptural information to back up that claim – nor is there any scriptural information that says Jesus hadn't actually seen Abraham before, right?)

    But, regardless of all this speculation, the fact remains that Jesus corrected the Jews about something, right?

    From the CONTEXT, what thing did Jesus correct the Jews about?

    They said he was less than 50 years old.

    He said he was in existence even before Abraham was in existence.

    See?  The CONTEXT tells us exactly what Jesus corrected the mistaken Jews about, Kerwin.

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,00:09)
    The context of John 8:58 is not the context of John 14:9.  John 14:9 is stating I am currently with you and have been with up to to this time. Apllying the same idea to John 8:58 means Jesus is currently, and has been before Abraham became.


    More nonsense, Kerwin.  Can you paste any supporting evidence or any translations that render 14:9 as “I have been with you, and still am to this day…………” ?

    Even if you could, the same would apply to 8:58.  Jesus could have been saying, “Before Abraham existed, I have been, and still am to this day……….”.

    I believe you're going to have to deal with 14:9 in a more direct way, Kerwin.  Perhaps you could just admit the truth of the matter – that even though it is the Greek present “I am”, we ALL know that the English perfect “I have been” is meant in 14:9.

    Are you willing to admit this?

    #308623
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    Conception is usually when the seed becomes one with the egg and an unformed human being comes to be. In the case of identical twins one twin is conceived when it separates from its sibling.

    The conception occurs within the women when artificial insemination is used but within a test tube and then implanted when surrogacy is employed.

    God simply took a part of Mary and shaped that part into the single cell that was the beginning of Jesus' flesh. Just as in the case of identical twins no male seed was used, even though a conception took place. In this way Jesus was miraculously conceived.

    God did this as a sign; which he tells us in Isaiah 7:14.

    #308630
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    * Jesus was not one of the angels at Mamre as God did not speak through him at that time; nor is he an angel as the World to come is not subject to angels, though is subject to him.

    * Scripture does state that Abraham, and the other prophets saw the day of Jesus' suffering as well as the glories that come afterwards.

    * Jesus did not say he was in existence before Abraham was in existence.

    It is taught about the present indicative that:

    Quote
    With reference to time, the present indicative is usually present time, but it may be other than or broader that the present time (e.g. historical present, gnomic present).

    John 14:9 uses it just as Luke 15:29 does.

    Quote
    3. Extending-from-Past Present (Present of Past Action Still in Progress)

       The present tense may be used to describe an action that, begun in the past, continues in the present. The emphasis is on the present time.

       Luke 15:29 I have served you for these many years.

    Trinitarians tend to favor the Gnomic Present.

    Quote
    6. Gnomic Present

       The present tense may be used to make a statement of a general, timeless fact. “It does not say that something is happening, but that something does happen” (Williams, 27). The action or state continues without time limits.

       2Cor 9:7 God loves [as a general, timeless fact] a cheerful giver.

    I believe JW's favor the following.

    Quote
    7. Historical (Dramatic) Present

       The present tense may be used fairly frequently in narrative literature to portray a past event vividly, as though the reader were in the midst of the scene as it unfolds. [The category is frequently misunderstood; see Wallace for his discussions of exegetically significant examples.]

       Matt 26:40 He came to his disciples and found them sleeping, and he said …

    here is my source.

    “I am with you so very long.” seems to be an English Simple Present Indicative according to this lesson

    #308632
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2012,21:09)
    T;

    Conception is usually when the seed becomes one with the egg and an unformed human being comes to be.  In the case of identical twins one twin is conceived when it separates from its sibling.

    The conception occurs within the women when artificial insemination is used but within a test tube and then implanted when surrogacy is employed.

    God simply took a part of Mary and shaped that part into the single cell that was the beginning of Jesus' flesh.  Just as in the case of identical twins no male seed was used, even though a conception took place. In this way Jesus was miraculously conceived.

    God did this as a sign; which he tells us in Isaiah 7:14.


    K

    are you a priest in the world churches ??? you surely talk like one

    the funny thing is you do not know ,and so invented that opinion , just because you cannot come to grip that Christ the son of God existed before he was send as a man ,

    just as you do not understand creation ,and so do not understand God or his will ,

    your arguments are all centred around a dictionary in a language you do not even understand because you have to go trough some one else to see if it fits your understanding ,

    its sad , :(

    #308635
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    * Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary; you disagree.
    * Scripture states the Spirit of Christ comes from above; you disagree.

    #308636
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2012,23:13)
    T,

    * Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary; you disagree.
    * Scripture states the Spirit of Christ comes from above; you disagree.


    k

    Quote
    * Scripture states the Spirit of Christ comes from above; you disagree.

    first I can not answer your question because knowing you it would be miss interpreted ,
    so to make sure that I understand your question correctly ;please tell me what is your understanding of “Spirit of Christ “???
    and show your scripture ,were it says that it comes from above.

    Quote
    * Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary; you disagree.

    I will answer you when you have answered my questions ;

    BUT GOD HIS SPIRIT ,AND HIS SON HIS ALSO SPIRIT SO HOW CAN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON BE BORN FROM A WOMAN WHEN ALL CREATION WAS DONE THROUGH HIM ???COL;1;15-20-Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth,

    so why would John use the word BECAME instead of conception ???

    #308637
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Pierre,

    Because John is speaking of “The Word” becoming flesh rather than Jesus. (see Acts 10:38)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308642
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    1 Peter 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Since Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Word was made flesh both must be true. The mystery God has set for us is to deteermine how Scripture teaches both are true.

    #308648
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2012,16:25)
    so why would John use the word BECAME  instead of conception ???


    Terricca………..Because words are Spirit connected that is where words come from and the anointed one “Jesus” had the “SPIRIT which produced the Words (IN) Him No word has ever   become flesh while “IT” can come to be “IN” flesh but it can never be flesh itself. God and His words are ONE Just as you and yours words are one and the same, God the Father was “IN” Jesus You preexistences and Trinitarians simply do not believe what Jesus said over and over , the Father is “IN” Me

    You make Jesus the Spirit of the Father that was (IN) Him which was the Father and He was the one doing the Works (IN)and Through Jesus or don't you believe what Jesus said,   the Son of Man can do nothing of “HIMSELF”  the Father who is “IN” him “HE” does the WORKS You people are slow of heart and deny so many scriptures and force the text to meet your false doctrines.

    God was truly (IN) Jesus “via” His Holy Spirit, God is Spirit and lives vicariously in and through His creation.  God the Father was 'truly “IN” Jesus, and can be “IN” us also “via” his Spirits. Don't you believe Jesus and didn't Thomas come to see this and say My Lord “AND” My GOD When is the light ever going to turn on Pierre, God the Father was reconciling the whole world to “HIMSELF” through “HIS” anointing Spirit , that was “IN” Jesus who is called the CHRIST (the anointed one). why can't you Trinitarians and Preexistences people understand that?

    Problem is you Just do not understand what SPIRIT (IS) IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gene

    #308650
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2012,01:58)
    T;

    1 Peter 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Since Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Word was made flesh both must be true.  The mystery God has set for us is to deteermine how Scripture teaches both are true.


    k

    you make me sick ,the way you use scriptures ;so here are the true meaning of your single scripture, see context;

    1Pe 1:7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
    1Pe 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
    1Pe 1:9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
    1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
    1Pe 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
    1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things

    it talks about the promise that was foretold by the prophets, that promise was the spirit of Christ ;yes the Christ or deliverer to come this was the spirit in witch all faithful believed in.and hope to see.

    #308651
    terraricca
    Participant

    k

    Quote
    Since Scripture states Jesus was conceived of Mary and the Word was made flesh both must be true. The mystery God has set for us is to deteermine how Scripture teaches both are true.

    like always no scriptures ,just statements without understanding, they can only be true if THE WORD =CHRIST THE SON OF GOD WAS SEND DOWN FROM HEAVEN AS HE SAYS AND AS HIS DISCIPLES SAID,YOU DO NOT BELIEVE SCRIPTURES ,YOU ONLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT AND THE WAY YOU FEEL LIKE IT ;THIS IS WRONG OF THE DEVIL.

    #308652
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2012,09:48)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2012,16:25)
    so why would John use the word BECAME  instead of conception ???


    Terricca………..Because  words are Spirit connected that is where words come from and the anointed one “Jesus” had the “SPIRIT which produced the Words (IN) Him No word has ever   become flesh while “IT” can come to be “IN” flesh but it can never be flesh itself. God and His words are ONE Just as you and yours words are one and the same, God the Father was “IN” Jesus You preexistences and Trinitarians simply do not believe what Jesus said over and over , the Father is “IN” Me

    You make Jesus the Spirit of the Father that was (IN) Him which was the Father and He was the one doing the Works (IN)and Through Jesus or don't you believe what Jesus said,   the Son of Man can do nothing of “HIMSELF”  the Father who is “IN” him “HE” does the WORKS You people are slow of heart and deny so many scriptures and force the text to meet your false doctrines.

    God was truly (IN) Jesus “via” His Holy Spirit, God is Spirit and lives vicariously in and through His creation.  God the Father was 'truly “IN” Jesus, and can be “IN” us also “via” his Spirits. Don't you believe Jesus and didn't Thomas come to see this and say  My Lord “AND” My GOD When is the light ever going to turn on Pierre, God the Father was reconciling the whole world to “HIMSELF” through “HIS” anointing Spirit , that was “IN” Jesus who is called the CHRIST (the anointed one). why can't you Trinitarians and Preexistences people understand that?

    Problem is you Just do not understand what SPIRIT (IS) IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gene


    GENE

    you would not understand a thing,it does not matter witch way we show you,

    your understanding of SPIRIT, AND WORDS,AND BEINGS,AND ANGELS HIS SO FAR AWAY FROM SCRIPTURES TRUTH ,IT IS NO FUNNY ANYMORE.

    so unless you are reading scriptures what would give you some truth coming trough your mouth ,your mind is twisting the truth.

    #308656
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terricca……… Exactly I would not understand it in “WHICH WAY YOU SHOW IT” you have correctly said that at least , So Produce the “ONE SCRIPTURE” that says YOUR SATAN “IS” a ANGEL . Your trash talk and slamming me mean nothing to me or for that matter anyone else, Produce you PROOF ONE SCRIPTURE will do “IF YOU CAN”.

    peace and love ………………………………………………………………gene

    #308658
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2012,11:24)
    Terricca……… Exactly I would not understand it in “WHICH WAY YOU SHOW IT” you have correctly said that at least , So Produce the “ONE SCRIPTURE” that says YOUR SATAN “IS” a ANGEL . Your trash talk and slamming me mean nothing to me or for that matter anyone else, Produce you PROOF ONE SCRIPTURE will do “IF YOU CAN”.

    peace and love ………………………………………………………………gene


    G

    do you ever wander why Jesus spoked to the people in parables ??? it says ,so they ear but do not understand ,they see and yet do not grasp ,

    why you think was that ???

    now remember those were all Jews ,so they knew the scriptures,

    #308659
    terraricca
    Participant

    gene

    if you cannot see it with your knowledge in God,then you are blind to it ;if you cannot ear it with your heart then you are a stone ,and so cannot be healed

    MT 13:15 FOR HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR THEIR EARS,
    AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

    #308666
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2012,04:24)
    Terricca……… Exactly I would not understand it in “WHICH WAY YOU SHOW IT” you have correctly said that at least , So Produce the “ONE SCRIPTURE” that says YOUR SATAN “IS” a ANGEL . Your trash talk and slamming me mean nothing to me or for that matter anyone else, Produce you PROOF ONE SCRIPTURE will do “IF YOU CAN”.

    peace and love ………………………………………………………………gene


    Hi Gene, H3742

    כְּרוּב: cherub, plural cherubims
    An angelic being — cherub, (plural) cherubims.

    “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon
    the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” (Ezek 28:14-15)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308667
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,22:03)
    Jesus was not one of the angels at Mamre as God did not speak through him at that time;


    Says who?  Hebrews 1 tells us two things:
    1.  God has spoken to us in the past through various agencies.
    2.  God has spoken to us recently through His Son Jesus.

    Neither of those two things say that Jesus is not one of the “various ways” God spoke to us in the past.

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,22:03)
    nor is he an angel as the World to come is not subject to angels, though is subject to him.


    The word is “messenger”, Kerwin.  It is only “angel” in English.  So when Paul says that God did not subject the world to come to MESSENGERS, what is meant?  Does it mean that NO SINGLE BEING who rules over the world to come will be a messenger of God?  Or is Paul talking specifically about one group of “messenger”?

    I'd say it is the latter, and Jesus is not a part of that group, but rules over that group.  But does that mean that Jesus is not still a messenger of his God?

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,22:03)
    Jesus did not say he was in existence before Abraham was in existence.


    And Jesus did not say he HAD BEEN among Philip for a long time.  See?  I can do that too, Kerwin.  I can claim something I know is not the real teaching of scripture, just for the sake of claiming it.

    But the FACT of the matter is that you and I both KNOW that “have I been” is the CORRECT meaning of 14:9.  You and I both KNOW that “I have served” is the CORRECT meaning of Luke 15:29.  You and I both KNOW that “he came” is the CORRECT meaning of Matthew 26:40.  And you and I both KNOW that “I have been (existed)” is the CORRECT meaning of 8:58.

    It seems you have no problem accepting the TRUE meaning of the other three (plus many more in scripture), but because 8:58 messes with your doctrine, you refuse to accept the obvious.

    I hope I never get the the point that my own personal doctrine forces me to make illogical mish-mash sentences out of easy to understand scriptural teachings.

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