Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #307941
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,23:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,03:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?


    Are you serious?  Phil 2:  He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.

    John 1:  The Word BECAME FLESH.

    How many do you need, Kerwin?   ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.


    We agree that God could do that – or anything really.  And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human.  But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.


    Mike,

    They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.

    Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell.  Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.

    Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men.  His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.


    K

    Did scriptures not say that he was made by God ???

    #307955
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,16:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,03:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?


    Are you serious?  Phil 2:  He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.

    John 1:  The Word BECAME FLESH.

    How many do you need, Kerwin?   ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.


    We agree that God could do that – or anything really.  And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human.  But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.


    Mike,

    They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.

    Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell.  Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.

    Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men.  His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.


    Kerwin.

    How did God made the word flesh?
    How can he do that?

    Kerwin Do you think God could bring out his living word and shape him in a being,with a spirit body?
    Or is this not possible?

    wakeup.

    #307988
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word. God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them. In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand.

    It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers.

    This is what we are told God did and is doing.

    #307989
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,10:06)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 04 2012,03:05)
    Kerwin.

    How did God made the word flesh?
    How can he do that?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word. God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them. In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand.

    It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers.

    This is what we are told God did and is doing.


    Amen!

    #307991
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2012,11:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,23:23)

    Mike,

    They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.

    Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell.  Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.

    Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men.  His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.


    K

    Did scriptures not say that he was made by God ???


    T,

    It does as it is written:

    Matthew 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    #307997
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,10:06)
    Wakeup,

    It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word. God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them. In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand.

    It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers.

    This is what we are told God did and is doing.


    Kerwin.

    This is something new to me.
    Where is all that written?

    Some one that has excepted Christ;God would put his word in him;and that word becomes flesh. This means that a non believer has different flesh to a believer: is that so?
    And what happened if that beliver has gone back sliding to the world? will that flesh change again to the previous condition?

    Are you saying that the WORD was not the only one that was made flesh? Is he not unique?
    Strange;really because the WORD was made flesh by birth.

    I always thought that the flesh is always against the spirit,and the spirit is always against the flesh,they can not mix,just as water and oil. The spirit wants to do good, but the flesh says ,no what for,maybe next time.

    And I also thought that God did not PUT THE SPIRIT IN US; but we have to SEEK to get the spirit.

    wakeup.

    Something is not right somehow.

    wakeup.

    #308033
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    Quote
    This is something new to me.
    Where is all that written?

    I paraphrased what is written.

    The words “It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word” express the same idea as Ephsians 4:24.

    The words “God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them” expresses the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.

    The  words “In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand” are a conclusion based on the first two Scriptures.

    The words “It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers” comes from Romans 8:29.

    The words “This is what we are told God did and is doing” are a conclusion derived from the above.

    Quote
    Some one that has excepted Christ;God would put his word in him;and that word becomes flesh. This means that a non believer has different flesh to a believer: is that so?
    And what happened if that beliver has gone back sliding to the world? will that flesh change again to the previous condition?

    The old man is the inner man that falls short of God's glory and does not have the Word written on his heart or placed in him, Ephesians 4:22 and Romans 3:23.

    The old man becomes flesh when he takes on the charicteristic of flesh; the same is true of the new man.

    Quote
    Are you saying that the WORD was not the only one that was made flesh? Is he not unique? Strange;really because the WORD was made flesh by birth.

    Adam and Eve were created in the form of God's righteousness and holiness; for it is written:

    Genesis 1:27
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Therefore Jesus was not unique in that way but is instead unique in that he did not go in search of many schemes; even as is common to the rest of humanity, Ecclesiastes 7:29.  His uniqness made him the First of many brothers as well as the way by which the Word is written on the hearts and placed within believers; just as he declared he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, John 14:6.

    Quote
    I always thought that the flesh is always against the spirit,and the spirit is always against the flesh,they can not mix,just as water and oil. The spirit wants to do good, but the flesh says ,no what for,maybe next time.

    The old man walks according to the flesh and the new man according to God's Spirit even though they both have the trait of flesh; as they dwell in it.

    Quote
    And I also thought that God did not PUT THE SPIRIT IN US; but we have to SEEK to get the spirit.

    We are to seek to obtain the Spirit by faith before God places it in us by his grace.  Once we have received it we are to seek to live by it through the same faith; and those that live by it, do so by the same grace.

    #308036
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,17:44)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2012,11:32)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2012,23:23)

    Mike,

    They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.

    Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell.  Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.

    Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men.  His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.


    K

    Did scriptures not say that he was made by God ???


    T,

    It does as it is written:

    Matthew 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


    k

    explain this scriptures just as Paul say it and all his listener understand it ;;

    Ro 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
    Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
    Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Ro 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
    Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

    #308056
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2012,11:31)
    k

    explain this scriptures just as Paul say it and all his listener understand it ;;

    Ro 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
    Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
    Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Ro 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
    Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.


    T,

    A believer follows Jesus by receiving and living by the Spirit; even while wearing flesh that reveal them as a descendant of  Adam.

    Jesus the first to live by the Spirit; even to tasting death; did not earn the wages of sin; which is death, but instead escaped Death which has no hold on him, Acts 2:24.  Jesus also bears flesh that declares him to be a descendant of David and of Adam, Matthew 1:1-16.

    #308063
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2012,16:07)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    This is something new to me.
    Where is all that written?

    I paraphrased what is written.

    The words “It is written that the new man is created in the form of God as regards the obedience to and the set aside of his Word” express the same idea as Ephsians 4:24.

    The words “God does this by writing the Word on a persons heart and placing the Word in them” expresses the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33.

    The  words “In this way God's Word becomes flesh; even as he revealed beforehand” are a conclusion based on the first two Scriptures.

    The words “It was done first with Jesus; so that he would become the First of many brothers” comes from Romans 8:29.

    The words “This is what we are told God did and is doing” are a conclusion derived from the above.

    Quote
    Some one that has excepted Christ;God would put his word in him;and that word becomes flesh. This means that a non believer has different flesh to a believer: is that so?
    And what happened if that beliver has gone back sliding to the world? will that flesh change again to the previous condition?

    The old man is the inner man that falls short of God's glory and does not have the Word written on his heart or placed in him, Ephesians 4:22 and Romans 3:23.

    The old man becomes flesh when he takes on the charicteristic of flesh; the same is true of the new man.

    Quote
    Are you saying that the WORD was not the only one that was made flesh? Is he not unique? Strange;really because the WORD was made flesh by birth.

    Adam and Eve were created in the form of God's righteousness and holiness; for it is written:

    Genesis 1:27
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Therefore Jesus was not unique in that way but is instead unique in that he did not go in search of many schemes; even as is common to the rest of humanity, Ecclesiastes 7:29.  His uniqness made him the First of many brothers as well as the way by which the Word is written on the hearts and placed within believers; just as he declared he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, John 14:6.

    Quote
    I always thought that the flesh is always against the spirit,and the spirit is always against the flesh,they can not mix,just as water and oil. The spirit wants to do good, but the flesh says ,no what for,maybe next time.

    The old man walks according to the flesh and the new man according to God's Spirit even though they both have the trait of flesh; as they dwell in it.

    Quote
    And I also thought that God did not PUT THE SPIRIT IN US; but we have to SEEK to get the spirit.

    We are to seek to obtain the Spirit by faith before God places it in us by his grace.  Once we have received it we are to seek to live by it through the same faith; and those that live by it, do so by the same grace.


    Kerwin.

    Jesus simply said; the word that I speak to you they are spirit: not flesh.

    Here you are saying that the word became flesh in us??

    Is this mans concept?

    wakeup.

    #308071
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us, this is a sense of speaking not a real fact because no “word” ever has became flesh, Words are Spirit according to Jesus and so they could never be flash. the word i am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “LIFE” , all it takes is to believe what Jesus said. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………….gene

    #308074
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,23:09)
    Mike,

    There are times you think you have a point which I think is foolishness.  One such is going to Descartes' words which equated thinking to existence.


    Is this your way of ACKNOWLEDGING to the rest of us that you DO understand the simple FACT that Descartes equated thinking to existence?

    Kudos for you, Kerwin!  Did the truth set you free?

    Now, if the words “I am” (in the absense of any conflicting context) simply mean “I exist”, what do they mean when Jesus said them in John 8:58?

    Consider this context, Kerwin:

    Mike, surely you are younger than your brother Brad, right?

    Truly I say to you Kerwin, before my brother Brad ginomai, I am.

    Using THIS context, one would have to be CONFUSED to think it meant ANYTHING other than, I have been in existence longer than my brother Brad.  So what do YOU think my answer to you meant in that example, Kerwin?

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,23:09)
    Why would you think you could fool anyone by insisting that the flawed conclusion of the unbelieving Jews is true?


    And why do YOU keep making this same claim?  I have told you TWICE already that the Jews were NOT right.  But what exactly were the Jews wrong about in 8:57-58, Kerwin?  They were wrong about Jesus not seeing Abraham because he was less than 50 years old.  That is what the CONTEXT tells us.

    But here's the clincher:  YOU keep bringing up the “flawed conclusion of the unbelieving Jews” – when YOU are the one who believes the very thing Jesus proved them wrong about!

    Can't you see that both YOU and the Jews think that Jesus was a man who, up until that point, had not even existed for 50 years yet?  So by highlighting the Jews “flawed conclusion”, you simultaneously highlight YOUR OWN “flawed conclusion” – because they are one and the same!    ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,23:09)
    Professor Jason BeDuhn is a hypocrite as he does just as he accuses other translators of doing.  Anyone can see that as 'I am” is present tense……………


    Jason BeDuhn has probably FORGOTTEN more about the Greek language than you or I will ever learn in the first place, Kerwin.  He graduated Harvard with a Masters in New Testament and Christian Origins.  He is currently the Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University.  This guy lives, breathes, studies, and teaches the Greek NT.

    You have made a bold statement condemning him, but let's see if you can put your money where your mouth is:

    John 14:9
    Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?

    The bolded words above are written in the PRESENT tense, just like in 8:58 – yet virtually every English translation renders the present “I am” as a past “I have been”.

    This is one of the “idiomatic uses” of “I am” that Professor Be Duhn mentioned in the excerpt I posted for you.

    Kerwin, do you think that, in John 14:9, Jesus is talking about HAVING BEEN with Philip for a long time?

    Or do you think he is saying he WILL BE with Philip for a long time?

    WHICH ONE, PLEASE?

    #308075
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2012,08:43)
    Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us……………


    But Gene,

    As I've told you 100 times already, John 1:14 DOESN'T say, “The Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.

    Instead, it says “The Word BECAME flesh”.

    Adding the word “IN” into that scripture changes the entire context and teaching – which is why you do it.  But does ADDING our own words to CHANGE the teaching really result in the “truth” of the scripture?  

    Don't feel so all alone, though – for Kerwin does the same thing.  He doesn't come right out and put the word “IN” in parenthesis like you do, but if you read his recent posts to Wakeup on this thread, it is clear that his understanding only works if the word “IN” is added to 1:14.

    Here is what he just said to Wakeup:

    Quote
    God does this by…………..placing the Word in them.

    It was done first with Jesus……………..

    See?  His understanding also relies on believing that God placed the Word IN Jesus.  Yet John 1:14 doesn't teach any such thing.  It teaches that “the Word BECAME flesh” – not that “the Word was placed IN someone who was already flesh”.

    #308090
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2012,00:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2012,11:31)
    k

    explain this scriptures just as Paul say it and all his listener understand it ;;

    Ro 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
    Ro 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
    Ro 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Ro 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
    Ro 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.


    T,

    A believer follows Jesus by receiving and living by the Spirit; even while wearing flesh that reveal them as a descendant of  Adam.

    Jesus the first to live by the Spirit; even to tasting death; did not earn the wages of sin; which is death, but instead escaped Death which has no hold on him, Acts 2:24.  Jesus also bears flesh that declares him to be a descendant of David and of Adam, Matthew 1:1-16.


    k

    Quote
    Jesus the first to live by the Spirit

    SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE TO THIS ???

    #308109
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,03:12)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2012,08:43)
    Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us……………


    But Gene,

    As I've told you 100 times already, John 1:14 DOESN'T say, “The Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.

    Instead, it says “The Word BECAME flesh”.

    Adding the word “IN” into that scripture changes the entire context and teaching – which is why you do it.  But does ADDING our own words to CHANGE the teaching really result in the “truth” of the scripture?  

    Don't feel so all alone, though – for Kerwin does the same thing.  He doesn't come right out and put the word “IN” in parenthesis like you do, but if you read his recent posts to Wakeup on this thread, it is clear that his understanding only works if the word “IN” is added to 1:14.

    Here is what he just said to Wakeup:

    Quote
    God does this by…………..placing the Word in them.

    It was done first with Jesus……………..

    See?  His understanding also relies on believing that God placed the Word IN Jesus.  Yet John 1:14 doesn't teach any such thing.  It teaches that “the Word BECAME flesh” – not that “the Word was placed IN someone who was already flesh”.


    Hi Mike,

    “Believest thou not that I in the Father, and  the Father in me?
    the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
    but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #308121
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2012,17:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2012,03:12)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2012,08:43)
    Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us……………


    But Gene,

    As I've told you 100 times already, John 1:14 DOESN'T say, “The Word came to be IN someone who was flesh”.

    Instead, it says “The Word BECAME flesh”.

    Adding the word “IN” into that scripture changes the entire context and teaching – which is why you do it.  But does ADDING our own words to CHANGE the teaching really result in the “truth” of the scripture?  

    Don't feel so all alone, though – for Kerwin does the same thing.  He doesn't come right out and put the word “IN” in parenthesis like you do, but if you read his recent posts to Wakeup on this thread, it is clear that his understanding only works if the word “IN” is added to 1:14.

    Here is what he just said to Wakeup:

    Quote
    God does this by…………..placing the Word in them.

    It was done first with Jesus……………..

    See?  His understanding also relies on believing that God placed the Word IN Jesus.  Yet John 1:14 doesn't teach any such thing.  It teaches that “the Word BECAME flesh” – not that “the Word was placed IN someone who was already flesh”.


    Hi Mike,

    “Believest thou not that I in the Father, and  the Father in me?
    the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
    but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    we can not be in God ,because it would mean that God follows our will,

    but Gods will can be in us because we follow his will,and so not ours

    #308185
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    Quote
    Kerwin.

    Jesus simply said; the word that I speak to you they are spirit: not flesh.

    Here you are saying that the word became flesh in us??

    Is this mans concept?

    wakeup.

    Consider that it is written:

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    There is no contradiction as Jesus' words are of the Spirit and not of the flesh.

    It is not a man concept as humanity by nature rejects the promise that God will write his Word on their hearts and place it in their inward being because they do not love the light.

    #308186
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Quote
    SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE TO THIS

    You know we are to follow Jesus; so I don't know why you ask for me to reveal that Jesus was the first to live by the Spirit.

    Galatians 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    Does Jesus walk by the Spirit or the flesh?  As he lived; so are we to follow him.

    #308191
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2012,01:43)
    Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us, this is a sense of speaking not a real fact because no “word” ever has became flesh, Words are Spirit according to Jesus and so they could never be flash. the word i am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “LIFE” , all it takes is to believe what Jesus said. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………….gene


    GEneB.

    Why try to change the scripture?

    John 1:14.simply says''and the word was =MADE= flesh.''

    Was Jesus resurrected in the spirit:Yes; and he appeared to the apostles in the flesh,ate and drank with them,then went off in the spirit; then appeared somewhere else in the flesh again.

    Do you realy think that this is impossible?
    Is this too hard to believe?

    wakeup.

    #308273
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2012,14:13)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    Kerwin.

    Jesus simply said;  the word that I speak to you they are spirit:  not flesh.

    Here you are saying that the word became flesh in us??

    Is this mans concept?

    wakeup.

    Consider that it is written:

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    There is no contradiction as Jesus' words are of the Spirit and not of the flesh.

    It is not a man concept as humanity by nature rejects the promise that God will write his Word on their hearts and place it in their inward being because they do not love the light.


    Gene,

    Some words to consider.

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