Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #307826
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2012,11:56)
    Oh, you mean like if we could produce a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY says, “I came down from heaven”?  

    Or maybe one where Jesus SPECIFICALLY speaks about the glory he had alongside God before the world began?  

    If only we could find a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY said, “No one has gone into heaven, except for the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man”.

    Boy, it sure is too bad for us that no scriptures like that exist, Gene.  :)


    Mike…………Yes lets deal with those scriptures if you are so sure they mean “SPECIFICALLY” what you “THINK” they do , you will find they do not mean what you assume they do and that is is you past Trinitarian and Preexistence perceptions that are blinding you from understanding the truth that Jesus never existed before his berth on this earth. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene

    #307827
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,09:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2012,11:56)
    Oh, you mean like if we could produce a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY says, “I came down from heaven”?  

    Or maybe one where Jesus SPECIFICALLY speaks about the glory he had alongside God before the world began?  

    If only we could find a scripture where Jesus SPECIFICALLY said, “No one has gone into heaven, except for the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man”.

    Boy, it sure is too bad for us that no scriptures like that exist, Gene.  :)


    Mike…………Yes lets deal with those scriptures if you are so sure they mean “SPECIFICALLY” what you “THINK” they do , you will find they do not mean what you assume they do and that is is you past Trinitarian and Preexistence perceptions that are blinding you from understanding the truth that Jesus never existed before his berth on this earth. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene


    gene

    all you understanding runs around your idea that Christ his a man only and that for some reason God chose a MAN to save all off creation,and so this Man Called Jesus Christ did not exist prior to his birth as a man ,even if he says otherwise ,

    so we will never come to your faulty believe ,because you have to twist many scriptures and that is what can not be done by anyone that s take Gods word in his heart ,

    #307833
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terrica………So you now deny Jesus was a Man, now that is interesting, and so since Sin entered in by man, Jesus could not be the sacrifice to remove it, in your preexistence theology becasue Jesus was not a Man . But scripture says and demonstrated he was a Man , and as a SON of MAN could qualify to redeem us all. Your work of separating Jesus' identity from man is a false teaching IMO

    As i have said over and over Trinitarians and Preexistences are both in the same boat of preaching deceptions . You don't even believe Jesus' words himself saying over and over 70 or 80 time he was a “SON of MAN”. And you accuse me of having a faulty belief and twisting scriptures. That is a JOKE at best Pierre> You Trinitarian Roots have bound you IMO>

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene

    #307834
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,13:16)
    Terrica………So you now deny Jesus was a Man, now that is interesting, and so since Sin entered in by man, Jesus could not be the sacrifice to remove it,  in your preexistence theology becasue Jesus was not a Man . But scripture says and demonstrated he was a Man , and as a SON of MAN  could qualify to redeem us all.  Your work of separating Jesus' identity from man is a false teaching IMO

    As i have said over and over Trinitarians and Preexistences are both in the same boat of preaching deceptions . You don't even believe Jesus' words himself saying over and over 70 or 80 time he was a “SON of MAN”. And you accuse me of having a  faulty belief and twisting scriptures. That is a JOKE at best Pierre> You Trinitarian Roots have bound you IMO>

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene


    gene

    see gene ,this is what you do in scriptures,and blind yourself,with your own ideas,

    did I say that I do not believe that Christ came down from heaven and took the cover of a man ??? NO i did not deny this ,

    but your purpose is not truth so you take the liberty of what you feel it should be ,not all of us think this way ,and me in particular do not ,

    #307837
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth. This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………
    …………gene

    #307841
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2012,09:01)
    Mike…………Yes lets deal with those scriptures if you are so sure they mean “SPECIFICALLY” what you “THINK” they do , you will find they do not mean what you assume they do and that is is you past Trinitarian and Preexistence perceptions that are blinding you from understanding the truth that Jesus never existed before his berth on this earth.


    Oh I see.  Not only does John 8:58 not really mean what it clearly says, but neither do any of the other three supporting scriptures I gave?  Okay Gene.  :)

    I'm sure you're right, that all of those scriptures mean NONSENSICAL things like, “the thought of me in God's head had glory before the world began” – instead of the most obvious, logical meaning to the words written.  :)

    Whatever.

    #307842
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2012,21:20)
    “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Matthew 5:18, Matthew 24:34, and Luke 21:32 of the KJV. I simply equate God’s word being fulfilled in a person as them being made perfect.


    Okay Kerwin,

    Remember the two deals I offered you. Are you bailing on the first one because you can't find a sane person in the whole world who thinks “I am” means “I am THINKING” in Descartes' statement?

    Does that mean you're ready to ACKNOWLEDGE to all of us what I'm sure you've known to be the truth since the first time you ever heard his statement? Are you ready to man up and clearly ADMIT that, I think, therefore I am means I think, therefore I exist?

    Now on to the second deal I made you: If you cannot show a REASON for Jesus to be saying “fulfilled” or “perfected”, you must accept the OBVIOUS translation of what Jesus was saying in John 8:58.

    Let's try yours on for size:
    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    What are the Jews commenting about here, Kerwin?

    1. Are they speaking about something being “perfected”, or “fulfilled”?

    2. Or are they talking about the AGE of Jesus, and the fact that his AGE of less than 50 years would likely prohibit him from having ever seen Abraham?

    Which one, Kerwin?

    #307847
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,16:29)
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth.  This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………

    …………gene


    g

    Quote
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man.

    He was the son of God as the first creation,and he became like man ,to give his live as a man so that we can be saved ';NO MAN BORN TO ADAM CAN PAY THE RANSOM OF HIS LIVE ,NOT FOR HIMSELF NEVER MIND FOR OTHERS,

    THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD ,AND HIS SON FOR THE RIGHTEOUS,

    UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS NOT HIS HUMANITY THAT IS IMPORTANT BUT HIS SACRIFICE ,AND THE LOVE OF GOD THAT MADE IT POSIBLE ,

    THE SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE WAS THAT HE LOVED HIS FATHER EVEN UNTIL DEAD,ALL FOR HIS FATHERS LOVE AND WILL

    #307851
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2012,16:29)
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man.


    Gene,

    What is your basis for making this claim? If scripture says Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made into a human being, then why couldn't this human being have “come down from heaven”?

    God can make sons of Abraham out of stones, Gene. Can He not make one out of a spirit being?

    Anyway, where is your scriptural proof that a spirit being cannot be made into a human being? Where is your scriptural proof to back up the words you said here?

    #307877
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Remember the two deals I offered you.  Are you bailing on the first one because you can't find a sane person in the whole world who thinks “I am” means “I am THINKING” in Descartes' statement?

    I bail because it has become a useless conversation.  It has become useless because it is irrelevant as I have already pointed to Scripture where “I am” means “I am he” or “I am Christ”.  

    What does “I am” mean in this statement “Before Abraham is to become, I am”, when the discussion is about  Abraham being the father of those that believe and the Jews and “to become” being a past and/or future action?

    I quoted this because “genesthai” is used here as well.  It is the same word used in exactly the same way and speaking of Abraham; and his seed, which is reckoned through his faith.  

    Romans 4:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, so shall thy seed be.

    Quote
    Let's try yours on for size:
    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    What are the Jews commenting about here, Kerwin?  

    1.  Are they speaking about something being “perfected”, or “fulfilled”?  

    2.  Or are they talking about the AGE of Jesus, and the fact that his AGE of less than 50 years would likely prohibit him from having ever seen Abraham?

    They are voicing their lack of understanding as they did in John 8:52-53, 48, and 33.
    1) Jesus did not say he saw Abraham.
    2) Abraham, a prophet saw Jesus’ day of execution and the glory to follow.
    3) Abraham was in Sheol when Jesus was executed; even though he saw the self sacrifice while he was yet in his mortal flesh.

    Unbelievers are not a creditable source of doctrine.  Jesus is the Seed through who Abraham has and is to become the father of many nations and Jesus is the One through who Abraham is to be fulfilled.

    #307878
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2012,06:05)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 01 2012,16:29)
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man.


    Gene,

    What is your basis for making this claim?  If scripture says Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made into a human being, then why couldn't this human being have “come down from heaven”?

    God can make sons of Abraham out of stones, Gene.  Can He not make one out of a spirit being?

    Anyway, where is your scriptural proof that a spirit being cannot be made into a human being?  Where is your scriptural proof to back up the words you said here?


    Mike,

    “might” is nothing.

    Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?

    The two males who warned Lot revealed they were not composed of spirit by eating and touching Lot; were nevertheless called Messengers, and not humans.

    God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.

    #307889
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,10:42)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,16:29)
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth.  This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………

    …………gene


    g

    Quote
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man.

    He was the son of God as the first creation,and he became like man ,to give his live as a man so that we can be saved ';NO MAN BORN TO ADAM CAN PAY THE RANSOM OF HIS  LIVE ,NOT FOR HIMSELF NEVER MIND FOR OTHERS,

    THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD ,AND HIS SON FOR THE RIGHTEOUS,

    UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS NOT HIS HUMANITY THAT IS IMPORTANT BUT HIS SACRIFICE ,AND THE LOVE OF GOD THAT MADE IT POSIBLE ,

    THE SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE WAS THAT HE LOVED HIS FATHER EVEN UNTIL DEAD,ALL FOR HIS FATHERS LOVE AND WILL


    Pierre………….Heb 3:3 say he was a Man. In Genesis God said “HER SEED” would bruise Satan's head, and as far as i am concerned all “SEED” of Women are human Beings ,ot “MORPHED” Being of any kind.

    peace and love …………………………………….gene

    #307900
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 03 2012,10:23)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,10:42)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 02 2012,16:29)
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man. You preach what the Gnostic's Preached , they believed Jesus was in “DISGUISE” as a Human but really was not a Man as we are. Your teachings and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians all are in lines with the Gnostic's teachings about Jesus coming from the Pelora of the GODS, Sent by the Gods to straighten out this earth.  This whole teaching denies Jesus' humanity. and His work as a plain Human Being and More it denies God the Fathers perfecting work in a fellow Human Being through his “anointing spirit” also., so in effect preexistences and trinitarians are not only are denying Jesus but the Father also. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………………………

    …………gene


    g

    Quote
    Terricca…………if he “Came down” from Heaven ” then he was “NOT” a Man.

    He was the son of God as the first creation,and he became like man ,to give his live as a man so that we can be saved ';NO MAN BORN TO ADAM CAN PAY THE RANSOM OF HIS  LIVE ,NOT FOR HIMSELF NEVER MIND FOR OTHERS,

    THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD ,AND HIS SON FOR THE RIGHTEOUS,

    UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS NOT HIS HUMANITY THAT IS IMPORTANT BUT HIS SACRIFICE ,AND THE LOVE OF GOD THAT MADE IT POSIBLE ,

    THE SPIRIT IN CHRIST THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE WAS THAT HE LOVED HIS FATHER EVEN UNTIL DEAD,ALL FOR HIS FATHERS LOVE AND WILL


    Pierre………….Heb 3:3 say he was a Man. In Genesis God said “HER SEED” would bruise Satan's head, and as far as i am concerned all “SEED” of Women are human Beings ,ot “MORPHED” Being of any kind.

    peace and love …………………………………….gene


    gene

    lets correct your statement :ALL SEED OF A MAN ARE MAN,

    SO YOU ARE ONLY HALF RIGHT ;

    because the main seed is of God , Christ father his God ,and it is with the power of his that he made Christ to become a man ,so to fullfil his own written words,

    PR 17:2 A servant who acts wisely will rule over a son who acts shamefully,
    And will share in the inheritance among brothers.

    MAL 1:6 “ ‘A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?’ says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, ‘How have we despised Your name?’

    RO 15:8 For I say that Christ HAS become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

    GE 17:12 “And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.

    ZEC 11:16 “For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.

    AC 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.

    RO 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

    RO 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all,

    RO 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

    2CO 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

    2CO 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

    Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
    Heb 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

    Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
    “What is man that you are mindful of him,
    the son of man that you care for him?
    Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
    you crowned him with glory and honor
    Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”

    In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
    Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
    Heb 2:11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
    Heb 2:12 He says,
    “I will declare your name to my brothers;
    in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”
    Heb 2:13 And again,
    “I will put my trust in him.”

    And again he says,
    “Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
    Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
    Heb 2:15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
    Heb 2:16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
    Heb 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
    Heb 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    God give Gene understanding so he can see not with the flesh but with your spirit ,

    #307906
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:20)
    I bail because it has become a useless conversation.


    I can see why YOU would consider it “useless”, because YOU'RE on the losing end of it.  But it is not “useless” to me, Kerwin.  I want a clear statement from you that “I think, therefore I am” means “I think, therefore I EXIST”.  If you cannot produce any evidence from the history of mankind where someone of reputation thought it meant anything other than this, than you need to accept and acknowledge that “I am” means “I exist” in that statement.

    Will you acknowledge this OBVIOUS FACT?  Or will you continue to play games because you know that admitting what you already know to be the truth will hurt your stance on John 8:58?  (That's right Kerwin, the rest of us can EASILY see the reason why a seemingly intelligent person would have trouble admitting something that is so obvious to even a 5 year old.)

    So, do you have a SUPPORTED alternative meaning to “I think, therefore I am”?  If not, then go ahead and ADMIT to us what you already know to be the truth of the matter.  It will do your soul some good to acknowledge truth.

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:20)
    What does “I am” mean in this statement “Before Abraham is to become, I am”,


    Where did the word “is” come from?

    Now, you already KNOW, from the two (of MANY) scriptures I recently posted for you, that “ginomai” in the second aorist OFTEN TIMES has a past tense meaning.  

    You already KNOW, from the NETNotes info I posted, that the Greek aorist tense is, in their words, “generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations”.

    And you already KNOW, from John 14:9, that the Greek present tense “I am” sometimes has an English meaning of “I have been”.

    I'm going to add one more piece of expert information to these things you already KNOW.  This is an excerpt from a book written by Greek expert, Professor Jason BeDuhn:

    “The majority of translations recognize these idiomatic uses of ‘I am’, and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear.  Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.  All the translations except the LB and NWT also ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English.  These changes in the meaning of the Greek and in the normal procedure for translation point to a bias that has interfered with the work of the translators.  No one listening to Jesus, and no one reading John in his own time would have picked up on a divine self-identification in the mere expression ‘I am’, which, if you think about it, is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.  The NWT understands the relation between the two verbs correctly.  The average Bible reader might never guess that there was something wrong with the other translations, and might even assume that the error was to be found in the NWT.”

    And here's how the NWT translates John 8:58,
    Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

    So after applying all these things that you now KNOW, tell me TRUTHFULLY if you can fault the NWT translation of 8:58. Can you?

    And I'll even add to this list one more thing…………..CONTEXT!
    John 8:57 NWT
     Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”

    The Jews were making a claim about the AGE of Jesus, implying that he could not have possibly ever seen Abraham, because he hadn't even been alive for 50 years yet.

    Jesus' answer was to tell them that before Abraham ever existed, he had already been in existence.

    Kerwin, you can keep playing games all you want.  You can keep PRETENDING that you don't realize “I am” in Descartes' statement can mean nothing other than “I exist” – but know for a fact that we can see right through your charade.  Know that we can see the bias that drives you to that charade.

    You can keep PRETENDING that Jesus was talking about being “perfected” before Abraham was to be “perfected” – but know for a fact that we can see how you have to ADD your own words into the sentence to keep from acknowledging the pre-existence of your Lord.  (You and Gene do this in MANY scriptures.)  Know that we can see the BIAS that would lead you to “not understand” the simple context of this passage.

    Kerwin, you are not fooling anyone here except for Gene.

    #307907
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?


    Are you serious?  Phil 2:  He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.

    John 1:  The Word BECAME FLESH.

    How many do you need, Kerwin?   ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.


    We agree that God could do that – or anything really.  And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human.  But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.

    #307908
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,14:33)
    God give Gene understanding so he can see not with the flesh but with your spirit ,


    …….through the name of your Holy Servant Jesus Christ, Amen.

    #307909
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,15:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2012,14:33)
    God give Gene understanding so he can see not with the flesh but with your spirit ,


    …….through the name of your Holy Servant Jesus Christ, Amen.


    of cause their is no other way :)

    #307911
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I wasn't correcting – just joining in with the prayer. I too would love nothing more than for that prayer to be answered. :)

    #307937
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    There are times you think you have a point which I think is foolishness.  One such is going to Descartes' words which equated thinking to existence.  

    In this example Descartes words placed in a different context take on a different meaning.

    What are you doing?
    I think.
    Are you considering?
    I think therefore I am.

    Why would you think you could fool anyone by insisting that the flawed conclusion of the unbelieving Jews is true?

    Professor Jason BeDuhn is a hypocrite as he does just as he accuses other translators of doing.  Anyone can see that as 'I am” is present tense and given that aorist infinitives can be translated either to past or future tense, depending on the context, then it is reasonable to conclude that the action performed by and to Abraham's benefit occurred after the present and not before.  

    I have no problem with translating the aorist infinitive of “to become” as past tense since Jesus was predestined to be the Christ even before the creation of the world.

    The stronger argument is that before Abraham is to become the Father of Many Nations, Jesus is the one by whom he does it.

    Facts that support it being the strongest argument.

    1) It answers the unbelievers question of who he is; as did Jesus' words about Abraham seeing his day.

    2) The verb forms are correct.

    3) The same verb and form is used elsewhere to reveal Abraham is the Father of many nations by his faith.

    4) It is a true statement.

    As I stated from the beginning, Jesus' words are vague but there is a reason the Spirit chose to be vague.

    #307940
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2012,03:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    Where is you Scriptural proof that a being composed of spirit was transformed into a being composed of flesh?


    Are you serious?  Phil 2:  He was existing in the form of God……….and was made into the likeness of a human being.

    John 1:  The Word BECAME FLESH.

    How many do you need, Kerwin?   ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2012,02:31)
    God can transform a beast into a human and a human into a beast but Scripture does not speak of such happening.


    We agree that God could do that – or anything really.  And I agree that scripture doesn't speak of God transforming a beast into a human.  But the scriptures I just paraphrased above DO speak of God transforming a spirit being into a human being.


    Mike,

    They do not speak of Jehovah transforming a creature of spirit to a human being as you so falsely conclude.

    Seth was made in the likeness of Adam starting from a single cell.  Like Seth, Jesus was made of a woman.

    Jesus has a inner self and an outer self as is common to men.  His inner self, the Word, led to him to not viewing equality to Jehovah a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the inner form of a servant.

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