Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #307416
    terraricca
    Participant

    gene

    Quote
    Terricca………….What did Jesus says Spirit was?, the words I am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “ARE” Life. Just that simple Life is what Spirit is , and our words express that Spiirt life that is “IN” us. Get it?

    The Flesh is not the life that is in it, that the life, is the  kind or type of spirit IN IT.  When we die our Spirit does not die it goes into a state of unconsciousness or inactivity we are unaware of anything until a New is regenerated and our  Spirits are added back into them. That is called the resurrection of the dead . What does Scripture say , the dead know nothing, in the day they die their “thought” Parish. And again scripture shows there is No activity (IN) the grave Just as it say in scripture the is no work or thoughts taking place when a person dies. Need Scripture ? I have posted them many times here.

    Abraham,  Isaac,  Jacob are all still asleep or inactive without consciousness they are waiting the “RESURRECTION” back to Life again  with a body Just as Jesus the first to achieve that goal from the grave has. God has made it that none of the Patriarchs and Prophets will become “LIVINGS SOULS” again without us also. as Scripture say . When are you people going to start to believe there is a resurrection of the “DEAD” ?

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gen

    Edited by Gene Balthrop on July 29 2012,08:31

    the words I am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “ARE” Life

    tell just like if we both were beside Christ when he said those words ;and I ask you, what does it mean what Jesus just said  ??? is it not knowledge ??? because if not then what is this meaning of; the dead know nothing, in the day they die their “thought” Parish,

    #307418
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother.

    peace and love to you………………………………….gene

    #307419
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2012,03:34)
    Here is a better example “Before Fred is to think, I am”.


    “Before Fred is to think, I am”?  Is that supposed to make sense to anyone?  ???

    Kerwin,

    I just roll my eyes when you start with these absolutely nonsensical things certain word phrases could mean.  It is clear to the rest of us that you are going to illogical lengths just to force the words to say something other than what they CLEARLY mean.

    The statement, “I think, therefore I am” means, “I think, therefore I EXIST“.  It's not rocket science.  But because you KNOW that's what it means, yet don't want the word “exist” to be associated with Jesus saying “I am” in 8:58, you will continue to PRETEND that you don't know the very simple meaning of “I think, therefore I am”.  

    Don't you feel just a little bit ashamed of your doctrine when you have to disassociate yourself with the (in your own words) “REASONABLE” meaning of certain phrases, and opt instead for nonsensical ones?  I mean, look at this that you just posted:

    Quote
    Jesus is instead teaching that before Abraham “to become”, I am.


    What the freak does that even mean?  ???  Do you seriously think that makes a lick of sense to anyone?   ???

    While it may be true that, in verse 56, Jesus was speaking of Abraham seeing his day via prophecy, the Jews equated that statement with Jesus literally having seen Abraham.  They claimed that this could not be since Jesus hadn't even lived for 50 years yet.  His answer was a CORRECTION of their claim, as he pointed out to them that he was in existence even BEFORE Abraham existed.

    That is the “REASONABLE” explanation of John 8:58, Kerwin.  But because the “REASONABLE” explanation dampers your doctrine, you cannot accept it, and are reduced to imagining all sorts of NONSENSICAL things those clear words must mean instead of the “REASONABLE” explanation.

    This is not a good way to go about understanding scripture, Kerwin.  We should not START with our own solid beliefs, and then FORCE the scriptures to teach them.

    Kerwin, you seem to be purposely focusing on verse 56 as a diversion, when our disagreement actually concerns the Jews' statement in verse 57, and Jesus' answer to that statement in verse 58.

    #307420
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,08:47)
    Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother.

    peace and love to you………………………………….gene


    I can't

    #307423
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2012,08:17)
    Mike………..If iI say Before Abraham EXISTED, I have Been, still does not work for you, because  I COULD ASK YOU ,  I have “been” what ?


    And therein lies the answer, Gene.

    If someone says “I have been…………BUSY”, then we know they are talking about being busy.

    If they say, “I have been…………SICK”, then we know they are talking about being ill.

    BUT……………………

    If a person simply says, “I have been”………… without anything else added to the end of the statement, then they are talking about existing.

    Get it?  The statement, “I think, therefore I am”, doesn't mean “I think, therefore I am busy”, because the author didn't add the word “busy” to the end of the sentence.  Nor does it mean, “I think, therefore I am sick”, because the author didn't add the word “sick” to the end of the sentence.  And without words added to the end of the sentence, the phrase “I am” simply (and always) means “I exist”.

    Do you understand that the phrase, “I am TIRED” means one thing, while the phrase, “I am”, without a modifying word attached to the end, simply means “I exist”?

    #307440
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,01:47)
    Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother.

    peace and love to you………………………………….gene


    Hi geneB.

    Terra is quoting John6:63.—-the words that I speak to you they are spirit,they are life.

    There is power in his words.
    In our words too.With just words one can make sombody happy or sad,or angree.
    We also can create things with our words; discussing a project,or a plan.

    wakeup.

    #307443
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 29 2012,10:12)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,01:47)
    Terricca………… sorry I am not following you . Please try to clarify what you saying Brother.

    peace and love to you………………………………….gene


    Hi geneB.

    Terra is quoting John6:63.—-the words that I speak to you they are spirit,they are life.

    There is power in his words.
    In our words too.With just words one can make sombody happy or sad,or angree.
    We also can create things with our words; discussing a project,or a plan.

    wakeup.


    :)

    #307446
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2012,02:15)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 27 2012,08:17)
    Mike………..If iI say Before Abraham EXISTED, I have Been, still does not work for you, because  I COULD ASK YOU ,  I have “been” what ?


    And therein lies the answer, Gene.

    If someone says “I have been…………BUSY”, then we know they are talking about being busy.

    If they say, “I have been…………SICK”, then we know they are talking about being ill.

    BUT……………………

    If a person simply says, “I have been”………… without anything else added to the end of the statement, then they are talking about existing.

    Get it?  The statement, “I think, therefore I am”, doesn't mean “I think, therefore I am busy”, because the author didn't add the word “busy” to the end of the sentence.  Nor does it mean, “I think, therefore I am sick”, because the author didn't add the word “sick” to the end of the sentence.  And without words added to the end of the sentence, the phrase “I am” simply (and always) means “I exist”.

    Do you understand that the phrase, “I am TIRED” means one thing, while the phrase, “I am”, without a modifying word attached to the end, simply means “I exist”?


    Mike, Mike, …….Talking about “SPECULATION” and ASSUMPTIONS, come on, if a Person say I have Been , My question would be been what? , your still forcing texts to meet you preexistences dogmas brother. You simply can not use “I HAVE BEEN” as any SPECIFIC statement that Jesus was talking about His existence as a sentinel “BEING” of any Kind. This i a good example why we can't make any head way here Mike, you seem to be unable to acknowledge what me and Kerwin are saying does make sense. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………………gene

    #307447
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wakeup…….He was re-quoting what i Quoted out of scriptures to him. I want to Know what is His Point he was making , sometime Pierre has a hard time letting us understand him becasue of the language barriers . I just want to know what the meant by what he wrote the is all>

    peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………………………………………….gene

    #307448
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,12:06)
    if a Person say I have Been , My question would be been what? , your still forcing texts to meet you preexistences dogmas brother.


    Genesis 31:38
    I have been with you for twenty years now. Your sheep and goats have not miscarried, nor have I eaten rams from your flocks.

    What did Jacob mean by the words “I have been” in the scripture above, Gene?  Would you ask him the question, “You have been WHAT?” if he said those words to you?  Or would you LOGICALLY understand that Jacob was saying, “I have EXISTED/LIVED with you for twenty years now”?

    What about this one:
    John 14:9
    Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?

    Would you ask Jesus WHAT he had been among you?  Or would you understand that Jesus was saying he had been EXISTING among you?

    You and Kerwin do the same thing, Gene.  You KNOW in your heart of hearts that the statement, “I think, therefore I am” means, “I think, therefore I EXIST” – but you must PRETEND that you don't understand this simple concept.  ???

    I don't know why you guys do that.  It only makes you seem unintelligent, as if you can't understand simple English word phrases that any 5 year old could understand.  ???

    Gene, are you SERIOUSLY not intelligent enough to understand that “I am tired” means someone is tired, and “I am” means someone EXISTS?

    #307453
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………..He added with you in his statement. So that defined what he meant , not just the words I have been If i were to try to draw a conclusion of that sentence with out the word “with You” is would be exactly what you are doing with the statement Jesus make when he said “ before Abraham I am that statement still lack saying what he was before Abraham, can't you see that brother. When ever we add any kind of meaning to a text that is called forcing the text IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………………………..gene

    #307475
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,12:46)
    Mike………..He added with you in his statement.


    And how does that change what the words “I have been” mean?

    Are you saying that it DOESN'T mean “I have EXISTED with you……..”? ???

    If not, then what?

    #307501
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    “Before Fred is to think, I am” has an inferred “to think” as it the subject of the conversation.  

    Many think Jesus said before Abraham was born, I am; though that infers Jesus is born.  Others translate it to “was” or another past tense verb even though the same type of verb can indicate something occurring in the future.

    It is also in a middle voice and so eliminates born or exist since it is an action Abraham performed or performs on himself where he shares in the result.

    Here are some uses of the Aorist infinitive in the active voice.

    Herod wants to kill you (Luke 13:31)

    Don't think that I came to destroy the law (Matthew 5:17)

    It is necessary for me to stay in your house (Luke 19:5)

    Wasn’t it necessary for the Christ to suffer. . . ? (Luke 24:26)

    As you see none of these are past tense words; though the last is speaking of a past event.

    In short, with the wrong voice, Jesus is teaching us that he is to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect.
    I definitely require to learn more as the traditions of experts appear to be different.

    #307503
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,05:11)
    Wakeup…….He was re-quoting what i Quoted out of scriptures to him. I want to Know what is His Point he was making , sometime Pierre has a hard time letting us understand him becasue of the language barriers . I just want to know what the meant by what he wrote the is all>

    peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………………………………………….gene


    O.K. GeneB

    But we must have patience with everything as you know.

    wakeup.

    #307509
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2012,07:22)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,12:46)
    Mike………..He added with you in his statement.


    And how does that change what the words “I have been” mean?

    Are you saying that it DOESN'T mean “I have EXISTED with you……..”?  ???

    If not, then what?


    Mike……….It doesn't change the words, “i have been” at all, but by adding the words “with you” defines how he has been . Get it?

    No i am not saying it doesn't mean ” i have existed ” at all, but the word (WITH) define how or in what way He was there.

    Mike can't you understand this Brother?

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

    #307510
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2012,19:25)
    Mike,

    “Before Fred is to think, I am” has an inferred “to think” as it the subject of the conversation.  

    Many think Jesus said before Abraham was born, I am; though that infers Jesus is born.  Others translate it to “was” or another past tense verb even though the same type of verb can indicate something occurring in the future.

    It is also in a middle voice and so eliminates born or exist since it is an action Abraham performed or performs on himself where he shares in the result.

    Here are some uses of the Aorist infinitive in the active voice.

    Herod wants to kill you (Luke 13:31)

    Don't think that I came to destroy the law (Matthew 5:17)

    It is necessary for me to stay in your house (Luke 19:5)

    Wasn’t it necessary for the Christ to suffer. . . ? (Luke 24:26)

    As you see none of these are past tense words; though the last is speaking of a past event.

    In short, with the wrong voice, Jesus is teaching us that he is to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect.
    I definitely require to learn more as the traditions of experts appear to be different.


    Kerwin…………..Good Point brother.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

    #307535
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,07:18)
    No i am not saying it doesn't mean ” i have existed ” at all, but the word (WITH) define how or in what way He was there.

    Mike can't you understand this Brother?


    Yes Gene,

    I understand. When Jesus says, “I have been with you”, he means “I have EXISTED with you”.

    We seem to be in agreement on this……… are we?

    #307536
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2012,02:25)
    In short, with the wrong voice, Jesus is teaching us that he is to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect.


    Kerwin,

    That entire post was nonsense and a diversion from the point of discussion.

    Gene, look up John 8:58 in the Greek Interlinear.  Here is what the last part says:

    AMEN AMEN I AM SAYING TO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM TO COME INTO BEING, I AM

    You told Kerwin, “Good point”.  Could you tell me how it is a “good point” for Kerwin to conclude that Jesus is teaching “I am to be made perfect before Abraham is to be made perfect” from the Greek words as translated above?  ???

    Come on Kerwin!  ???  How in the world do you get YOUR translation out of the Greek words of 8:58?  

    Don't you feel even the least bit ashamed of yourself when you bulldoze the scriptures this way?  You have come up with an interpretation that is IMPOSSIBLE to be reached from the Greek words we have to go on.  ???

    #307538
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Also Kerwin,

    You have yet to address this:

    Do you agree that the statement, “I think, therefore I am means, “I think, therefore I exist?  YES or NO?

    #307614
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2012,23:30)
    Also Kerwin,

    You have yet to address this:

    Do you agree that the statement, “I think, therefore I am means, “I think, therefore I exist?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    I have addressed in two different ways.

    1) I am x where x is the inferred word depending on context.
    a} I think therefore I am [existing]
    b} I think therefore I am [thinking]

    2) The form is different than that of before Abraham x, I am.

    You have already mentioned the effects of context on meaning in relationship to the factor x in the statement before Abraham x, I am.  You believe the unbelieving Jews were correct in their conclusion that Jesus saw Abraham; even though their premise that Abraham could not see Jesus' day without Jesus existing in his was flawed. I see them as being incorrect because of their lack of understanding.

    As for the effects of on the words “I Am”, here are two witnesses where certain experts believe “Christ” is inferred.

    Luke 21:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

    and

    Mark 13:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    I am curious how so many experts obtained past tense verbs out of a verb that seems to be used in future tense in most cases.  I am also curious how they believe Abraham acted on his own birth/existence.  I can see how he participated but that would be a passive verb and not a middle as it is.  Though I am curious it is already clear what variables can be plugged into the form of the statement that render it true.

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