Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #307047
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,23:34)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,21:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,04:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08)

    you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view ????


    T;

    Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.


    k

    well now go back and show in scriptures how the word “ginomai” should be understood in the true meaning


    T,

    Jesus is greater than Abraham.  A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”  A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.

    Hebrews 11
    King James Version (KJV)

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34.  Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58, like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.


    Kerwin

    Jn 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
    Jn 8:52 At this the Jews exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
    Jn 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

    you can see in those scriptures that the conversation does not goes around 'IF ABRAHAM IS GREATER OR JESUS” because they claim that all have died ,and Christ just told them in verse 51 that if anyone keep his word he will never see dead “

    then in verse 53 a new question is asked ; Who do you think you are? and on this question Jesus answered :

    Jn 8:54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
    Jn 8:55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.
    Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
    Jn 8:57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
    Jn 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    so he identify for whom he works and what he was doing for him (keeping his word)that is his father who they call their God ,55 and in the following verses  Christ tell them in 56 how Abraham felt at the” thought” of seeing my day ;in this way Christ had said that he was before Abraham was ,and when they tell him that he his not yet 50 years old, 57 ,then Christ added ; “before Abraham was born, I am!”58

    so the original question;Jn 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets

    was related to the fact that he said keep my word and you should not see dead ;

    then the new question was ask; Who do you think you are? and so the answer also changed ,and after ward another question came out ;when he said that he was their and saw Abraham be happy about his day ;this broth to another comment of the Pharisees ;notice that he was not more than 50 years old and yet he sew Abraham ,and so Christ finish of by saying ;   “before Abraham was born, I am!”58

    so for those reasons I think you do not show the truth ,because Christ did not lie ,even John the baptist agree with what he said ;Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’

    also Paul ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    Jude ;Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    just to name a few;

    #307075
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terricca……….You have correctly quoted it question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? . Jesus did not say he was alive as a existing “Being” before Abraham now did He?, you Preexistences add that Part to the text.  You can not use that as a “PROOF TEXT” Because you are supposing That is what Jesus was saying but fact is he did not “Specifically” say that now did he Brother?

    Now Before all AGES, Has nothing to do with a time Period, But as the context shows is relating as More in power and Authority in other words “AHEAD OF” in importances> The word in Greek means in importance, not necessarily meaning a TIME Period. Like the man came Before the Board, that means in front of, and has nothing to do with a time period at all. Are you following this Pierre?

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………..gene

    #307076
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)
    Jesus is greater than Abraham.  A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”  A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.


    Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right>

    peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene

    #307081
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,02:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)
    Jesus is greater than Abraham.  A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”  A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.


    Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right>

    peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene


    Gene B.

    Before GeneB. ''I am''.
    During the second ww. ''I am.''

    wakeup.

    #307083
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,09:24)
    Terricca……….You have correctly quoted it question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? . Jesus did not say he was alive as a existing “Being” before Abraham now did He?, you Preexistences add that Part to the text.  You can not use that as a “PROOF TEXT” Because you are supposing That is what Jesus was saying but fact is he did not “Specifically” say that now did he Brother?

    Now Before all AGES, Has nothing to do with a time Period, But as the context shows is relating as More in  power and Authority in other words   “AHEAD OF” in importances>  The word in Greek means in importance, not  necessarily meaning a TIME Period. Like the man came Before the Board, that means in front of, and has nothing to do with a time period at all.  Are you following this Pierre?

    peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………………………………………..gene


    gene

    did i changed the meaning of the scriptures ???no

    but you do,big time,

    #307113
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,06:23)
    K

    Quote
    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    is an image the same as form ??? it depend what you  describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
    but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere  a visible being an invisible being  ,can it be done ??? this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right ??? like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;

    so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them  ,and so the IMAGE  would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,

    WHAT YOU THINK???


    T;

    I believe you are correct in some ways and incorrect in others.

    Ephesians 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Paraphrases of Ephesians 4:24

    1] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's likeness is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    2] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's image is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    3] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's form is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    4] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's reflection is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    5] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's shape is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    All these mean the same as the are comparing those things the new man has  in common with Jehovah.

    Does the new man, who exists in the image of Jehovah according to Ephesians 4:24, view equality with God as something not to be grasped; and so empties himself; taking on the image of a servant?

    #307119
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,17:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,06:23)
    K

    Quote
    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    is an image the same as form ??? it depend what you  describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
    but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere  a visible being an invisible being  ,can it be done ??? this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right ??? like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;

    so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them  ,and so the IMAGE  would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,

    WHAT YOU THINK???


    T;

    I believe you are correct in some ways and incorrect in others.

    Ephesians 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Paraphrases of Ephesians 4:24

    1] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's likeness is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    2] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's image is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    3] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's form is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    4] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's reflection is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    5] And that ye put on the new man, which after God's shape is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    All these mean the same as the are comparing those things the new man has  in common with Jehovah.

    Does the new man, who exists in the image of Jehovah according to Ephesians 4:24, view equality with God as something not to be grasped; and so empties himself; taking on the image of a servant?


    K

    Quote
    I believe you are correct in some ways and incorrect in others.

    I believe I am correct in all I said ;
    you are not proving anything ;take that scripture;EPH 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

    what is it that scripture says ???

    1) it ask to put on what we had not before

    2)gives the reason why we should do it

    3) it give the final achievement or results of that task

    I do not understand what is it you try to make me seen ???

    did I miss some thing ???

    if you try to connect this to Christ ,this can not be done for the reason that we were not created in the form or nature of God but of men,BUT CHRIST WAS CREATED IN THE FORM OR NATURE OF GOD AND SO THEIR IS ONLY ONE WAY TO GO AND THAT IS DOWNWARD ,BECAUSE HE COULD NOT BECOME GOD ALMIGHTY right ??? yes

    #307121
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 25 2012,23:03)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,02:41)
    Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right>

    peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene


    Gene B.

    Before GeneB. ''I am''.
    During the second ww. ''I am.''

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    The Scripture does not state before Abraham, I am, so your questions are irrelevant to it.  These are relevant, and I believe what you intended.

    Before Gene to “ginomai”, I am.

    Before WWII to “ginomai”, I am.

    #307128
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    1] I gave proof that the words “image” and “form” can be used in one another's place without changing the meaning of what is said.

    2] I gave proof that new man is created in the image (form) of God.

    3] I asked if the new man, who exists in the form (image) of God, would:
    a} see equality with God something not to be grasped
    b} empty himself
    c} choose to take on the form (image) of a servant.

    I am not revealing a complicated idea, nor one I think you disagree with.  But if you wish to hear what has been opened to me; then yes a righteous man will do these things.

    #307130
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene said:

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2012,09:24)
    question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? .


    And Kerwin said:

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)

    In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34.  Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58,
    like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.

    Do you guys listen to yourselves?  What kind of nonsense is this?

    I think, therefore I am.  – René Descartes

    Kerwin, can you or Gene tell me what the words “I am” mean in this famous philosophical statement?  (Please just give me a direct and honest answer.)

    #307135
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2012,08:19)
    Gene said:

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2012,09:24)
    question is “I AM WHAT? I am written about in scriptures ?, I am before him in importance?, I am in the plan and will of God before him ?, I am existing as a living Being ? .


    And Kerwin said:

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)

    In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34.  Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58,
    like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.

    Do you guys listen to yourselves?  What kind of nonsense is this?

    I think, therefore I am.  – René Descartes

    Kerwin, can you or Gene tell me what the words “I am” mean in this famous philosophical statement?  (Please just give me a direct and honest answer.)


    Mike,

    He is considering.

    #307139
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,19:57)
    T,

    1] I gave proof that the words “image” and “form” can be used in one another's place without changing the meaning of what is said.

    2] I gave proof that new man is created in the image (form) of God.

    3] I asked if the new man, who exists in the form (image) of God, would:
    a} see equality with God something not to be grasped
    b} empty himself
    c} choose to take on the form (image) of a servant.

    I am not revealing a complicated idea, nor one I think you disagree with.  But if you wish to hear what has been opened to me; then yes a righteous man will do these things.


    Kerwin

    you only give me opinions ,

    could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you

    and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,

    #307146
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    Quote
    Kerwin

    you only give me opinions ,

    could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you

    and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,

    Edited by terraricca on July 26 2012,10:24

    What you write sounds like foolishness as I obvious did not give my opinion in any way.  Everything I said is a fact, but requires the correct understanding of English and how the new man exists in the form (image) of Jehovah.

    I am not sure what question I did not answer. Perhaps you can repeat it. Thank you!

    #307157
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,23:14)
    T;

    Quote
    Kerwin

    you only give me opinions ,

    could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you

    and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,

    Edited by terraricca on July 26 2012,10:24

    What you write sounds like foolishness as I obvious did not give my opinion in any way.  Everything I said is a fact, but requires the correct understanding of English and how the new man exists in the form (image) of Jehovah.

    I am not sure what question I did not answer.  Perhaps you can repeat it.  Thank you!


    K

    One page back :D

    #307162
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    Mankind was created in the form of God; then went in search of many schemes.

    Jesus, like Adam before him, was created in the form of God.

    Adam was created a new man, just as Jesus would later be, but , unlike Jesus, chose to put on the old man when he disobeyed.

    Does Jesus wear the new man created like God in true holiness and righteousness?

    #307177
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,11:11)

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 25 2012,23:03)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 26 2012,02:41)
    Kerwin……….This is true BROTHER. Jesus was showing His place in importance to them. You have it right>

    peace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………gene


    Gene B.

    Before GeneB. ''I am''.
    During the second ww. ''I am.''

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    The Scripture does not state before Abraham, I am, so your questions are irrelevant to it.  These are relevant, and I believe what you intended.

    Before Gene to “ginomai”, I am.

    Before WWII to “ginomai”, I am.


    Kerwin.

    Jesus simply means; before Abraham, I was already in existence,even though I am only 33yrs old.

    What is the fuss.

    wakeup.

    #307178
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 26 2012,17:29)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 26 2012,23:14)
    T;

    Quote
    Kerwin

    you only give me opinions ,

    could you bring your prove beside the understanding just like I showed you ,thank you

    and again answer my questions ;it seems you do not interested to learn from others just to dump your views and opinions ,

    Edited by terraricca on July 26 2012,10:24

    What you write sounds like foolishness as I obvious did not give my opinion in any way.  Everything I said is a fact, but requires the correct understanding of English and how the new man exists in the form (image) of Jehovah.

    I am not sure what question I did not answer.  Perhaps you can repeat it.  Thank you!


    K

    One page back  :D


    Terra.

    You quoted in the previous page.Jesus saying;
    If anyone follow my words,he will never see death.
    We know we all die; so how can we not see death?
    can you explain?

    wakeup.

    #307181
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All………the Word BEFORE can be rendered in two way, as in Time or Place. Example,

    I shall pass “BEFORE” You. As God did Moses, this is a PLACE or POSITION meaning in front of.

    I shall go before the Court, again a PLACE of POSITION, has nothing to do with Time at all>

    I shall go before the Court before 10:00, that implies “both” Position and time.

    But if you can, “Notice this”, even in time it still is dealing with a POSITION (in time).

    Preexistences and Trinitarians use this Word as a time “only” becasue it enforces their Dogmas of Preexistence , Just as they twist up the word of John 1, to mean Jesus instead of what is actually written. Both are Separatists Who can not believe Jesus was a prophesied Human Being that God Perfected and Used for the salvation of Mankind. They do not want us to have our true Identity With Jesus , but endless work to move him away “Separating” Mankind from Jesus These are indeed Clouds without Water who should tremble at the work of iniquity they do. The blind leading the blind who are in a ditch and don't even KNOW IT . IMO

    Trinitarians and Preexistences are No Different they “BOTH” are workers of Separation IMO

    peace and love to you all ……………………………………..Gene

    #307225
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene,

    You're doing it again in this last post of yours.  You are offering mulitple other things certain words could mean, but not giving any thought to how those meanings would alter John 8:58.  

    For example, if the word “before” referred to “position” in 8:58, there would be no word “ginomai” used.

    But it doesn't say “before Abraham I am”, as in “I am before Abraham in position”.  Instead, it says, “before Abraham EXISTED, I have been”.

    In order for “position” to be the meaning here, the word “existed” must vanish from the scripture.  Would you like to re-write the scripture without that word, Gene?  Or is it better that we form our understanding around the words that were actually written?

    P.S.  I'm waiting for your answer to my question:

    In the statement, “I think, therefore I am”, what does the “I am” part mean?  Doesn't it mean “I exist”?  YES or NO?

    #307226
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,21:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2012,08:19)

    I think, therefore I am.  – René Descartes

    Kerwin, can you or Gene tell me what the words “I am” mean in this famous philosophical statement?  (Please just give me a direct and honest answer.)


    Mike,

    He is considering.


    What? ???

    Do the words “I am” mean “I exist” in that statement, Kerwin? YES or NO?

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