Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 20 posts - 461 through 480 (of 1,323 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #306126
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2012,01:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,05:07)

    From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?


    Philippians 2 is speaking of an event that occurred.  


    So then Phil 2:5-6 truly teaches, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:  Who, [although he WAS] existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped…….”

    Are we in agreement on this point?

    #306128
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2012,07:25)
    IN  Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context.


    Gene,

    The CONTEXT of Phil 2 is that Jesus WAS existing in the form of God, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being.  It's good that you understand “existing in the form of God” as a past tense statement from Paul's point of view.  I think Kerwin is finally ready to DIRECTLY acknowledge this point too.  And just last week, I helped Marty, who had been insisting that it was a present tense statement, to see the truth of the matter.

    So now that we all agree “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE statement from the time Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians, we only have to decide HOW FAR in the past it refers to.  

    You guys offer “he was existing in the form of God WHILE a human being, AND THEN was made into the likeness of a human being”.  

    We offer, “he was existing in the form of God in heaven, AND THEN was made into the likeness of a human being”.

    Now I ask you:  Which one actually makes sense?  The one where a HUMAN BEING was MADE in the likeness of a human being?   ???

    Or the one where someone was existing in a NON-HUMAN BEING form, and then was MADE the likeness of a human being?

    To me, it's a no brainer even if we only used that one passage.  But once we start comparing Phil 2 with the other 50 scriptures that also support the pre-existence of Jesus, it's no longer even a contest.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2012,07:25)
    Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born?


    If the BEING Jesus said he existed before Abraham existed, then why would YOU assume that he existed as something other than a BEING?  Do you have any scriptural reason to assume that he DID exist before Abraham, but NOT as a being?

    #306164
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8,

    You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.  It clearly does not state that before Abraham “ginomai”, I am. “ginomai” has many meaning of which you or others can cherry pick the one they fell more comfortable.  Basing a teaching on such a hard to understand Scripture instead of using more easily understood to understand it is questionable behavior.  “ginomai” is a word used of fulfilled prophecy and Jesus is addressed as the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15.

    I doubt that is what is speaking of as just like everyone else Abraham is fulfilled after Jesus for all are fulfilled in him.  Jesus started out the conversation speaking of that fulfillment.

    #306171
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25)
    T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO .  IN  Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born?  Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO

    The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both.  Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity  God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity  that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN”  You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs.  You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.

    T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene


    Gene B.

    John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?

    Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-

    Go and work this one out.

    wakeup.

    #306174
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 18 2012,06:32)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25)
    T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO .  IN  Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born?  Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO

    The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both.  Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity  God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity  that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN”  You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs.  You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.

    T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene


    Gene B.

    John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?

    Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-

    Go and work this one out.

    wakeup.


    Good post wakeup

    And so in heaven their are two gods as well God almighty and the god that made it that men became gods SATAN

    #306176
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,23:32)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25)
    T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO .  IN  Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born?  Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO

    The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both.  Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity  God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity  that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN”  You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs.  You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.

    T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene


    Gene B.

    John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?

    Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-

    Go and work this one out.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup…….what you are saying has nothing to do with my Post. But Here is some for you. Jesus said “for thou art the “ONLY” true GOD” Now what does the word ONLY mean to you. do you Believe what Jesus said? , And what about Paul who said thou are many “SO-CALLED” Gods but unto Us there is ONLY ONE God. Jesus was chiding those Pharisees as people who were given the representations of God to the People By God the Father and they were not fulfilling their responsibilities of the Positions given them .

    Just a was with Moses , he was God representative on earth to the Isrealites and was therefore as God to them. When God give a person those responsibilities they are (IN A SENSE) a God to them being representatives of HIM. Even So with Jesus, But Non of that Make any of then a REAL GOD> IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………..gene

    #306185
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2012,09:07)

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 17 2012,23:32)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2012,00:25)
    T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO .  IN  Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born?  Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO

    The Work of SEPARATION of identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both.  Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity  God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity  that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN”  You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs.  You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.

    T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene


    Gene B.

    John10:34.Jesus answered them, is it not written—I SAID—ye are gods?

    Gen.3:22. AND THE LORD GOD SAID,Behold the man is become as one of –US–TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL; ——-

    Go and work this one out.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup…….what you are saying has nothing to do with my Post. But Here is some  for you. Jesus said “for thou art the “ONLY” true GOD” Now what does the word ONLY mean to you. do you Believe what Jesus said? , And what about Paul who said thou are many “SO-CALLED” Gods but unto Us there is ONLY ONE God. Jesus was chiding those Pharisees as people who were given the representations of God to the People By God the Father and they were not fulfilling their responsibilities of the Positions given them .  

    Just a was with Moses , he was God representative on earth to the Isrealites and was therefore as God to them.  When God give a person those responsibilities they are (IN A SENSE) a God to them being representatives of HIM. Even So with Jesus, But Non of that Make any of then a REAL GOD> IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Wakeup………………………………..gene


    Gene

    So what you are saying IS that their is only one true almighty GOD ,who his the GOD of Gods ,right ???

    This I do not think anyone will dispute this.

    #306203
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44)
    T8,

    You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.


    Read the context, Kerwin.

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

    58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”

    The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did. He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.

    In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim. Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.

    #306231
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 17 2012,07:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2012,01:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,05:07)

    From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?


    Philippians 2 is speaking of an event that occurred.  


    So then Phil 2:5-6 truly teaches, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:  Who, [although he WAS] existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped…….”

    Are we in agreement on this point?


    Mike,

    Jesus was in the form of Jehovah and because he was in the form of Jehovah he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped but instead chose to empty himself and take on the form of a servant.

    That example sums up the mind-set of Jesus.

    #306233
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Yes Kerwin,

    That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly.  Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding. Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God. But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings. They already are in that likeness, right?

    Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”.  Are we in agreement on that part? I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.

    #306237
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44)
    T8,

    You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.


    Read the context, Kerwin.

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

      58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”

    The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did.  He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.

    In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim.  Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.


    Mike,

    Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?

    #306264
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04)
    Yes Kerwin,

    That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly.  Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding.  Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God.  But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings.  They already are in that likeness, right?

    Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”.  Are we in agreement on that part?  I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.


    Mike,

    What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.

    1) She is the exact form of her mother.

    2) She is the exact image of her mother.

    #306266
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin,

    #2 sounds worded stronger.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #306276
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ June 22 2006,20:37)
    Some teach or speculate that the Angel of the Lord is a pre-existant Christ. Again this is speculation, but I forward these 2 scriptures that could point to this:

    Judges 13:16-18
    16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.
    17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
    18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    Isaiah 9:6
    For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
    And the government will rest on His shoulders;
    And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    We know Isaiah 9:6 is Christ and he is called wonderful counselor and the Angel of the Lord is called 'Wonderful'.
    NOTE: There were no commas in the original texts.

    The word 'wonderful' in both scriptures are as follows:

    Judges 13:16-18


    Transliteration – pil'iy {pil-ee'} or paliy' {paw-lee'}
    Word Origin – from 6381
    Part of Speech – adjective
    Usage in the KJV – secret 1, wonderful 1, variant 2

    Isaiah 9:6


    Transliteration – pele' {peh'-leh}
    Word Origin – from 6381
    Part of Speech – noun masculine
    Usage in the KJV – wonder 8, wonderful 3, wonderfully 1, marvellous

    They are effectively the same word, but one is used as an adjective and the other as a noun.

    This on it's own doesn't hold much water, but there are other verses that could point to this notion.

    Acts:7:36-39
    36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
    37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
    38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
    39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

    1 Corinthians 10:1-4
    1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
    2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
    3 They all ate the same spiritual food
    4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    Now compare the next 3 scriptures:

    Numbers 21:5-6
    5 The people spoke against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food.”
    6 The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.

    Judges 2:1
    1 Now the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you,

    1 Corinthians 10:9 KJV
    9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

    So in 3 accounts we have the LORD, Angel of the Lord, and Christ. Although some other translations do not have the word 'Christ' in this verse. (Could be the Trinity bias of the KJV at work?)

    Anyway, are they the same being?
    Are they different beings of rank working toward the same purpose?

    So far I have speculated that the Angel of the Lord is Christ.
    To speculate that they are all different beings, I give this next verse:

    Revelation 1:1
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

    What do others think?


    T8.

    The word of God did appear as an angel sometimes.
    But we can understand why he did not identify himself as christ.
    because the christ is still future to them.

    wakeup.

    #306335
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44)
    T8,

    You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.


    Read the context, Kerwin.

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

      58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”

    The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did.  He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.

    In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim.  Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.


    Mike,

    Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?


    From what I just posted, it is clear the Jews DIDN'T know what they were talking about.

    But JESUS knew what they asked, and HE knew what HE was talking about when he gave them the answer he gave them.

    #306336
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2012,01:54)
    Mike,

    What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.

    1) She is the exact form of her mother.

    2) She is the exact image of her mother.


    I don't know.

    I could mold some clay into the FORM of a hummingbird, and I could also show you a photo I took which is an IMAGE of a hummingbird. In my analogy there is a difference, but I suppose the words are sometimes synonyms.

    Why do you ask?

    #306342
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04)
    Yes Kerwin,

    That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly.  Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding.  Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God.  But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings.  They already are in that likeness, right?

    Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”.  Are we in agreement on that part?  I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.


    Mike,

    What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.

    1) She is the exact form of her mother.

    2) She is the exact image of her mother.


    kerwin

    it could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way

    this is 1 and 2

    #306414
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,06:01)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 18 2012,01:54)
    Mike,

    What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.

    1) She is the exact form of her mother.

    2) She is the exact image of her mother.


    I don't know.  

    I could mold some clay into the FORM of a hummingbird, and I could also show you a photo I took which is an IMAGE of a hummingbird.  In my analogy there is a difference, but I suppose the words are sometimes synonyms.

    Why do you ask?


    Mike;

    Because Scripture uses image more than form to express the same idea.

    2 Corinthians 4:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    and

    Colossians 1:15
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Could the word form be used instead of image in the above two passages without changing the meaning?

    #306415
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,05:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,01:44)
    T8,

    You quote John 8:58 as if you believe it states before Abraham existed I did.


    Read the context, Kerwin.

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

      58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”

    The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did.  He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.

    In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim.  Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.


    Mike,

    Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?


    From what I just posted, it is clear the Jews DIDN'T know what they were talking about.

    But JESUS knew what they asked, and HE knew what HE was talking about when he gave them the answer he gave them.


    Mike,

    Where did Jesus claim that he saw Abraham?

    #306416
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04)
    Yes Kerwin,

    That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly.  Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding.  Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God.  But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings.  They already are in that likeness, right?

    Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”.  Are we in agreement on that part?  I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.


    Mike,

    What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.

    1) She is the exact form of her mother.

    2) She is the exact image of her mother.


    kerwin

    it could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way

    this is 1 and 2


    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    What does image mean in the following passage?

    Colossians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  

    Here is another passage to consider.

    Ephesians 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Viewing 20 posts - 461 through 480 (of 1,323 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account