Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #305726
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?

    #305788
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:27)
    Kerwin,

    Do you agree that “existing in the form of God” is PAST TENSE, otherwise Paul would have been writing about the form Jesus was in AT THE TIME Paul actually wrote the letter?  YES or NO?

    And Jesus cannot be in the form of God and in the form of a servant at the same time.  He could be in the form of God UP UNTIL THE VERY LAST SECOND before taking the form of a servant, but not both at the same time.  At least not in this context – unless you believe God is a servant.  Paul was CONTRASTING one form Jesus was in from a DIFFERENT form Jesus was in.  Can you see that?


    Mike;

    The present tense is to reveal an ongoing action that resulted in certain past actions.  It's use does not reveal whether or not that same action continues to this day; but only that is resulted in other actions.

    According to you angels have both the form of God and of servants concurrently.

    You are trying to argue that Jesus emptied himself of the outer nature of Jehovah, which you believe is like that of the angels, and put on the outer nature of a human being.

    Jesus saw equality with God as something not to be grasped and so chose to make himself nothing.  While Jehovah is the one that made him in the likeness of humanity.  Jesus did not choose to be in the likeness of humanity; he was made that way.

    #305790
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29)
    Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?


    Mike,

    It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.

    A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.

    #305874
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Actually, it is scriptural that Jesus is BOTH the rod AND the root of Jesse.

    Can you show any scripture where a root is not “what comes before”? In 29:18 it certainly refers to one who worships another god FIRST, thereby causing others to follow.

    #305875
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,03:21)
    Mike;

    The present tense is to reveal an ongoing action that resulted in certain past actions.


    Please explain:

    Phil 2:6
    Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped……….

    In your explanation, it means Jesus is NOW existing in the form of God AS THE RESULT OF not considering equality with God something to be grasped.  Is that correct?

    Or is it more accurate to say that, at the time Paul wrote his letter, he was saying, “Jesus WAS/HAD BEEN existing in the form of God………..”?

    My question that you keep avoiding with your diversion is:

    Was Paul talking in the present, saying that Jesus IS NOW existing in the form of God (from his point of view when he wrote the letter)?  

    Or was Paul speaking of a time BEFORE Jesus was exalted to heaven, and therefore meaning “Jesus WAS existing in the form of God…..”

    Kerwin, was Paul referring to Jesus existing in the form of God while he was on earth?  If you say “YES”, then you are also understanding “existing” as a PAST ACTION from Paul's point of view.

    #305889
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,20:37)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29)
    Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?


    Mike,

    It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.

    A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.


    Kerwin.

    Did Mary have to change baby Jesus nappies,and gave her breast for milk?

    wakeup.

    #305913
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,03:21)
    While Jehovah is the one that made him in the likeness of humanity. Jesus did not choose to be in the likeness of humanity; he was made that way.


    And was Jesus in any other form before being made in the likeness of a human being?

    It seems to me that the non-preexisters really don't know what to make of Phil 2. You all want to say Jesus was a human being when “existing in the form of God”, yet don't know how to explain how someone who already was a human being could be made in the likeness of a human being.

    #305924
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,03:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,20:37)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29)
    Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?


    Mike,

    It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.

    A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.


    Kerwin.

    Did Mary have to change baby Jesus nappies,and gave her breast for milk?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    That is a reasonable belief since that is common to humanity though Scripture makes no mention of it. Here is the closest I found but it only hints at the answer.

    Luke 11
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
    28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

    #305948
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,18:41)

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,03:11)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,20:37)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2012,05:29)
    Kerwin, do YOU have anything to add to my last post to Gene – seeing how you and he have shared the view that root and branch carry the same metaphorical meaning?


    Mike,

    It seems to me that Jesus is the Rod of Jesse and the church is the Branch that grows out of his roots.

    A root is the member or faction of a household as used in Deuteronomy 29:18.


    Kerwin.

    Did Mary have to change baby Jesus nappies,and gave her breast for milk?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    That is a reasonable belief since that is common to humanity though Scripture makes no mention of it.  Here is the closest I found but it only hints at the answer.

    Luke 11
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
    28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.


    Kerwin.

    Here is my next question:
    Did Mary have to Change Gods nappies,and feed on her breast?

    wakeup.

    #305985
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,19:49)
    Kerwin.

    Here is my next question:
    Did Mary have to Change Gods nappies,and feed on her breast?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I do not hold that Jesus is Jehovah.

    I do hold that he is the Son of Yahweh's Spirit.

    #305991
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2012,09:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2012,03:21)
    While Jehovah is the one that made him in the likeness of humanity.  Jesus did not choose to be in the likeness of humanity; he was made that way.


    And was Jesus in any other form before being made in the likeness of a human being?  

    It seems to me that the non-preexisters really don't know what to make of Phil 2.  You all want to say Jesus was a human being when “existing in the form of God”, yet don't know how to explain how someone who already was a human being could be made in the likeness of a human being.


    Mike,

    Scripture already teaches us that with this verse.

    Genesis 5:3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

    #305994
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    You hold that an angel has the outward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the outward form of a servant.
    You also hold that an angel has the inward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the inward of a servant.

    You argue that Philippians 2:6-7 teaches that Jesus surrendered the outward form of one servant and took on the outward form of another.  That is clearly not in those verses.  

    What is in those verses is that Jesus having a godly attitude had no desire to be equal but instead humbled himself and choose to serve Jehovah and mankind.

    The whole event being spoken of occurred in the past.  Later verses teach us that it occurred simultaneously to his death on the cross and perhaps prior.  Because of his behavior he was exalted.

    #305998
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,16:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2012,09:04)
    It seems to me that the non-preexisters really don't know what to make of Phil 2.  You all want to say Jesus was a human being when “existing in the form of God”, yet don't know how to explain how someone who already was a human being could be made in the likeness of a human being.


    Mike,

    Scripture already teaches us that with this verse.

    Genesis 5:3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


    Kerwin,

    In that scripture, could you tell me which one was already existing in the likeness of a human being when he was made in the likeness of a human being?  Was it Adam or Seth?  ???

    #305999
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,16:39)
    Mike,

    You hold that an angel has the outward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the outward form of a servant.
    You also hold that an angel has the inward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the inward of a servant.

    You argue that Philippians 2:6-7 teaches that Jesus surrendered the outward form of one servant and took on the outward form of another.  That is clearly not in those verses.  

    What is in those verses is that Jesus having a godly attitude had no desire to be equal but instead humbled himself and choose to serve Jehovah and mankind.

    The whole event being spoken of occurred in the past.  Later verses teach us that it occurred simultaneously to his death on the cross and perhaps prior.  Because of his behavior he was exalted.


    Kerwin,

    You are speaking in riddles and claiming to know certain things I believe when I've never told you I believe those things. ???

    Here is the simple question, and I would like a simple answer to it for once:

    From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?

    #306020
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2012,08:35)

    Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,19:49)
    Kerwin.

    Here is my next question:
    Did Mary have to Change Gods nappies,and feed on her breast?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I do not hold that Jesus is Jehovah.

    I do hold that he is the Son of Yahweh's Spirit.


    Kerwin.

    You have answered correctly, Jesus is not Jehovah.
    He is the son of God.

    He was the word of God;(spirit). the words that I speak to you they are spirit,and it is the spirit that quickens.It is Jesus that will quicken us at his coming.

    The spirit word of God was changed into flesh,and was given a name;(jesus). and this man is of the root of David.

    We will be quickened by the word of God(now glorified Jesus) at his coming.(of the root of David).
    AND HIS NEW NAME IS ;THE WORD OF GOD.(rev19).

    have a nice day,

    wakeup.

    #306028
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    He was the Word of God before the Word became flesh, Wakeup. His new name is known only to him. (Rev 19:12)

    #306065
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,05:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2012,16:39)
    Mike,

    You hold that an angel has the outward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the outward form of a servant.
    You also hold that an angel has the inward form of Jehovah at the same time he has the inward of a servant.

    You argue that Philippians 2:6-7 teaches that Jesus surrendered the outward form of one servant and took on the outward form of another.  That is clearly not in those verses.  

    What is in those verses is that Jesus having a godly attitude had no desire to be equal but instead humbled himself and choose to serve Jehovah and mankind.

    The whole event being spoken of occurred in the past.  Later verses teach us that it occurred simultaneously to his death on the cross and perhaps prior.  Because of his behavior he was exalted.


    Kerwin,

    You are speaking in riddles and claiming to know certain things I believe when I've never told you I believe those things.  ???

    Here is the simple question, and I would like a simple answer to it for once:

    From Paul's point of view when he wrote the letter to the Philippians, was “existing in the form of God” PRESENT tense, or PAST tense?


    Mike,

    You did tell me you believe that angels have the outer nature of Jehovah; as you believe angels and Jehovah all have bodies composed of spirit.  In fact your current argument is based on the idea Jesus has the outer form of Jehovah.

    You also told me you believe angels have the outer form of servants; because they, like humanity, bear the form of a servant.

    As for inner form; the new man is said to exist in the image of Jehovah; as is Jesus. As far as I know this is what you believe.  The new man serves God. Angels also bear the same image.

    Jesus currently exists in the form of Jehovah as he is the exact image of his being, which is written elsewhere in Scripture.  

    Seth was begotten in the outward likeness of Adam; and the inward image of Adam who had fallen from Jehovah's glory.  Seth descends from Adam.  Humanity already existed in its own likeness when Jesus was made in it.

    Philippians 2 is speaking of an event that occurred.  That event is then tied to Jesus' service of self-sacrifice.  

    There is no riddles in these things.

    #306067
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Those who deny that Jesus existed before Abraham and that he wasn't the Word and that God did not create all things through him are basically going against not only one or two scriptures, but many. They then systematically come up with a way to interpret each verse in a way that is not written.

    This is how all false doctrine works. You take a scripture or truth from scripture and apply that truth to a context so that the natural reading of the scripture is changed.

    So if I could convince you that the Devil did not exist for example, you would then read every verse about the devil in a different way to as it is written.

    Trinitarians, those that deny that God made all things through Jesus Christ, and those that deny the existence of the Devil all work on this premise.

    As for those who seek the truth, they only need to read the scripture for themselves and cast aside any bias, prejudice, and predefined beliefs. So if Jesus said “before Abraham I am”, then you read it for what it says and deal with it even if it contradicts something you believe.

    #306076
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,12:52)
    He was the Word of God before the Word became flesh, Wakeup.  His new name is known only to him.  (Rev 19:12)


    I agree mike.he was the word of God before he was made flesh, and he was simply called the Lord; made flesh through the genealogy of David.

    God the father is a life giving spirit;and his word is also a life giving spirit,for he created all,but by the will of the owner only.And his owner is the Lord of host.

    God owes everything,and everything;his word also he owned,its his.
    God can make his word into anything he wants,stone, flesh, wood, spirit.

    cheers.

    wakeup.

    #306078
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8………Surely you Jest, where is the Word “JESUS” written in John 1:1 , isn't that a little hypocritical of you brother when that is exactly what PREEXISTENCES all DO .  IN  Philippians Paul is clearly talking about Jesus Preexistences on this EARTH during his day before Jesus died and went to heaven , not Prior to that time, but you preexistences add your thoughts to those scriptures which corrupts and change the context. Even concerning Abraham , Where did Jesus ever say He was alive as a “BEING” before Abraham was Born?  Again you not only take the scripture out of context you add a Preexistence factor to it as those deluded Pharisees did when Jesus spoke those words. No Preexistences or Trinitarians have any right to Judge others when they do exactly what they accuse other of doing . IMO

    The Work of SEPARATION of the identity of Jesus with humanity is the biggest deception on this earth in Christianity. It moves Jesus away form His flesh Brothers and Sisters, it is a Hugh work of deception fostered by Preexistences and Trinitarians Both.  Making Jesus something different completely destroys the work of GOD in humanity  God was not using a Preexistent “Being to Save Humanity  that would be against the 'LAW of REDEMPTION” Which required it to be a kinsmen . You Preexistences as well as Trinitarians Trash the Work of GOD (IN) Humanity and also the Work of Jesus as being a PURE Human BEING. Who came into being from the roots of Davis and his Father JESSE. Just as scripture says. Also you neglect other scriptures , Like where Moses, Issiah, and other Prophets who said Jesus would come from among His “BRETHREN”  You accuse us of ignoring many scriptures when in fact it is you preexistences who are ignoring many many scriptures and force the text to fit you belifs.  You have produce no one scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive as a “BEING” of any KIND before his Berth on this earth , nor have you produced any activity of a prior existence either.

    T8 rather you understand it or Not You Preexistences are Just as Much the problem as Trinitarians only worse becasue the Trinitarians at least acknowledge God Presents (IN) Jesus which you Preexistences fail to do. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours T8………………………………………………………………..gene

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