Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #305340
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2012,13:37)
    Jesus posed this question:

    Luke 20:44
    King James Version (KJV)

    44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

    The answer is also in Scripture.

    Romans 1:3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


    That is actually part of the answer to Jesus' question, Kerwin, but do you know why?  Jesus is the son of David ONLY according to the flesh.  But David would not call his son “my Lord”, and so there must be something else to the story.  This is the part you deny – the part where, although Jesus was a branch of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, he also existed as the Root of David long before David even became flesh.

    This is what Jesus was trying to teach the Pharisees.

    Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2012,13:37)
    If you are only go by the order of things in the sentence it does appear that Jesus chose to become a srvant before being ginomai in the likeness of humanity.  One possible flaw to such reasoning is that Ginomai is a word with multiple meanings.


    Praise be to Jehovah!  I don't know that we'll ever get you to see what is so clear to us, but I give you loads of credit for being sincere enough to acknowledge that our understanding “appears to be reasonable”.  (I joined what you recently said to t8 with what you just said to me to get that quote.)

    Now, if our understanding appears to be reasonable, and there are many scriptures that support that understanding, while there are NO scriptures that contradict it, why are you having such a hard time accepting the reasonable?

    #305341
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 08 2012,13:46)
    God's purpose for it is to teach us to be like minded with Christ who exists both in the form of God and the form of a servant.


    It doesn't teach that Jesus existed in the form of God AT THE SAME TIME he existed in the form of a servant.  In fact, it teaches quite the opposite.  It teaches that although Jesus WAS EXISTING in the form of God, he didn't cling to that good existence, but instead made himself of no account and TOOK ON the form of a servant by being made into a human being.

    The teaching is that we also be willing to walk away from any luxuries we have, if doing so will be to the benefit of others.  This mind of Christ is echoed in Matthew 19:21…….

    Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

    What Jesus did by leaving God's side to be made as a human would be like you giving up being a human to be made as a cockroach.  And then, being found in appearance as a cockroach, you suffer humility among the other cockroaches for 33 years until you, a once powerful human being, are put to death by these puny cockroaches.

    This is the sacrifice Jesus made, Kerwin.  He came to dwell among what would be the equivalent of cockroaches to us, and to suffer humility, cruelty, and even death at the hands of those he used to be able to squash like a bug.

    Kerwin, imagine the humility you would feel if you were about to fight some 3 year old girls, and unknown to those watching, God took away your strength so that everyone saw you, a full grown man, getting your butt kicked viciously by three year old girls.  You would be a laughing stock.  That is the humility Jesus, the second most powerful being in existence, suffered at the hand of puny human beings, for the sake of puny human beings.

    This is the mind of Christ we are to have in us.

    #305368
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    That is actually part of the answer to Jesus' question, Kerwin, but do you know why?  Jesus is the son of David ONLY according to the flesh.  But David would not call his son “my Lord”, and so there must be something else to the story.  This is the part you deny – the part where, although Jesus was a branch of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, he also existed as the Root of David long before David even became flesh.

    The inferred pard of Jesus' teaching is that he is the Son of God through the Spirit; as his heart is superior to David's.

    As for Jesus being the root of David, Jehovah promised David a son to sit on his throne forever and David believed. Jesus is spoken of in Eve's curse.

    Quote
    Now, if our understanding appears to be reasonable, and there are many scriptures that support that understanding, while there are NO scriptures that contradict it, why are you having such a hard time accepting the reasonable?

    Appearances are deceptive but the Word of God wins through.

    #305372
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin, “root” refers to that which is first, and “branch” refers to that which comes after.

    Jesus is both the Root AND the Branch of David.  Why do you nonsensically try to pretend that both words mean “descendent”?  ???

    And it's truly sad that you can admit our understanding “appears reasonable”, but then use “appearances can be deceiving” to give you an “out” from believing the reasonable.

    I will remind you that not only is our understanding “reasonable”, but it is supported by MANY scriptures, and refuted by NONE.  Doesn't that also count for something?   ???

    #305405
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……….Any commentary will tell you that Jesus was talking about His origin Not some tricky wording as you assume it is. Jesus is also as David from the ROOT of JESSE , Need proof?

    Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Now Mike who was that “ROOT” was it not Jesus? Not there Jesus is called the root of Jesse, but you make what is said in revelation as meaning Jesus is the root of David . Jesus meant he was the Root and offspring of King David, Just as he said he was. It's all one thing meaning the decedent of King David. No mixed Meaning implied there,You just forcing the text to meet you dogmas of “PREEXISTENCE” brother.

    peace and love to you…………………………………………………………………gene

    #305408
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 10 2012,08:50)
    Mike……….Any commentary will tell you that Jesus was talking about His origin Not some tricky wording as you assume it is. Jesus is also as David from the ROOT of JESSE , Need proof?

    Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Now Mike who was that “ROOT” was it not Jesus? Not there Jesus is called the root of Jesse, but you make what is said in revelation as meaning Jesus is the root of David . Jesus meant he was the Root and offspring of King David, Just as he said he was. It's all one thing meaning the decedent of King David.  No mixed Meaning implied there,You just forcing the text to meet you dogmas of “PREEXISTENCE” brother.

    peace and love to you…………………………………………………………………gene


    gene

    Jn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
    Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
    Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
    Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

    if this is not clear I really don't know how it would be said better ;for a believer that is

    #305418
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2012,06:46)
    T8,

    I am more concerned that the teaching of this Scripture be retained than disproving your teaching of preexistence.  Much of what you say about this Philippians 2 does not work within the context as its purpose as God's purpose for it is to teach us to be like minded with Christ who exists both in the form of God and the form of a servant.  

    The element order within the sentence can be construed to infer preexistence because  “ginomai” has some meanings that do so.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Excellent post! The more informed a person is
    – the better “{a decision}” they can make.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305422
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 10 2012,01:50)
    Mike……….Any commentary will tell you that Jesus was talking about His origin Not some tricky wording as you assume it is. Jesus is also as David from the ROOT of JESSE , Need proof?

    Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Now Mike who was that “ROOT” was it not Jesus? Not there Jesus is called the root of Jesse, but you make what is said in revelation as meaning Jesus is the root of David . Jesus meant he was the Root and offspring of King David, Just as he said he was. It's all one thing meaning the decedent of King David.  No mixed Meaning implied there,You just forcing the text to meet you dogmas of “PREEXISTENCE” brother.

    peace and love to you…………………………………………………………………gene


    To All,

    Jesse means to exist. That means:
    the God part will continue to exist.
    Consider carefully these tie in verses:

    (Gal.2:20) “i am crucified with Christ:
    nevertheless I live;” (Nahum 1:14)

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #305444
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    It doesn't teach that Jesus existed in the form of God AT THE SAME TIME he existed in the form of a servant. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. It teaches that although Jesus WAS EXISTING in the form of God, he didn't cling to that good existence, but instead made himself of no account and TOOK ON the form of a servant by being made into a human being.

    Philippians 2
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    The verb “being” is present and yet had resulted in him choosing to take the form of a servant. ” Having been” is past tense. So it explicitly teaches Jesus is both in the form of God and the form of a servant at the same time.

    Quote
    The teaching is that we also be willing to walk away from any luxuries we have, if doing so will be to the benefit of others.

    Matthew 19:21 is a type with a man specifically putting wealth before God, while a person that like minded with Christ will put nothing before God. Phillipians 2 is teaching more.

    Philippians 2
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
    2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
    3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
    4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    Quote
    What Jesus did by leaving God's side to be made as a human would be like you giving up being a human to be made as a cockroach. And then, being found in appearance as a cockroach, you suffer humility among the other cockroaches for 33 years until you, a once powerful human being, are put to death by these puny cockroaches.

    This is the sacrifice Jesus made, Kerwin. He came to dwell among what would be the equivalent of cockroaches to us, and to suffer humility, cruelty, and even death at the hands of those he used to be able to squash like a bug.

    Kerwin, imagine the humility you would feel if you were about to fight some 3 year old girls, and unknown to those watching, God took away your strength so that everyone saw you, a full grown man, getting your butt kicked viciously by three year old girls. You would be a laughing stock. That is the humility Jesus, the second most powerful being in existence, suffered at the hand of puny human beings, for the sake of puny human beings.

    A godley mindset is the one Jesus demonstrated.

    What you write is mainly speculation.

    Matthew 11:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    Luke 23:34
    King James Version (KJV)

    34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

    He does not see humanity as we see cockroaches nor was he concerned about being a figure of ridicule as he exists in the form of God.

    #305446
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all;

    Deuteronomy 29:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

    What does root mean in this passage?

    #305452
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2012,08:50)
    Isa 11:10….> And in that day there shall be a “root” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


    Isaiah 11:1
    There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

    Gene, does this scripture demonstrate that Jesus is the BRANCH of Jesse, which means he comes AFTER Jesse?

    Isaiah 11:10
    “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

    Gene, does this scripture demonstrate that Jesus is the ROOT of Jesse, which means he came BEFORE Jesse?

    So tell me how those two scriptures don't coincide EXACTLY with this scripture:

    Revelation 22:16
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    #305453
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2012,18:35)
    To all;

    Deuteronomy 29:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

    What does root mean in this passage?


    Deuteronomy 29:18 NET
    Beware that the heart of no man, woman, clan, or tribe among you turns away from the Lord our God today to pursue and serve the gods of those nations; beware that there is among you no root producing poisonous and bitter fruit.

    It means “the start”, or “that which comes first”. In other words, make sure none of you are going to be the one who STARTS to worship other gods, causing those who come AFTER you to also worship them.

    #305454
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2012,18:35)
    To all;

    Deuteronomy 29:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

    What does root mean in this passage?


    k

    Quote
    What does root mean in this passage?

    origin ,from before ,from the past ,prior ,

    what you think it means ???

    #305455
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2012,18:28)
    Philippians 2
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    The verb “being” is present and yet had resulted in him choosing to take the form of a servant.  ” Having been” is past tense. So it explicitly teaches Jesus is both in the form of God and the form of a servant at the same time.


    Let me try to help you, Kerwin.  IF “existing in the form of God” is meant as a present, then Paul could not have been writing about Jesus' existence on earth, but must have been writing in present time about Jesus, RIGHT THEN, existing in the form of God.

    Do you think Paul was talking about the exalted Jesus being in the form of God?  If not, then it is definitely used as a past tense.

    I'll give you a make-shift example:

    In 2006, Obama, seeing that he wasn't going to win the south, decided to campaign in Georgia after all.

    Do you see how the verb is technically a present tense, but is describing an action Obama performed 6 years ago?

    #305515
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,07:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2012,18:35)
    To all;

    Deuteronomy 29:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

    What does root mean in this passage?


    k

    Quote
    What does root mean in this passage?

    origin ,from before ,from the past ,prior ,

    what you think it means ???


    T;

    It is speaking of each member of the House of Israel being a root.They bear gall and wormwood.

    What does the Root of the House of Jesse bear?

    #305518
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2012,01:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,07:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2012,18:35)
    To all;

    Deuteronomy 29:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

    What does root mean in this passage?


    k

    Quote
    What does root mean in this passage?

    origin ,from before ,from the past ,prior ,

    what you think it means ???


    T;

    It is speaking of each member of the House of Israel being a root.They bear gall and wormwood.

    What does the Root of the House of Jesse bear?


    K

    No it does not talk to Israel but to the offspring of it, and of the bad that some of them drag with them ,from of old ,

    #305665
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin? Gene?

    #305686
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    The ongoing action “seeing” does not stop before the past action “decided” initiates. Instead the “seeing” results in the “decided”. In fact a wise candidate would continue to keep an eye on things on the ground just in case circumstances changed.

    Philippians 2:6-7 tells us that Jesus was in the form of God when he saw equality with God a thing not to be strived for but instead emptied himself; and chose to take on the form of a servant. Just like President Obama seeing and making and decision at the same time, Jesus was in the form of God when he took on the form of a servant.

    It does not work how you hope it does as 1) Jesus is not said to have the form of an angel, 2) The outward form leads no one to see equality with God as thing not be strove for, 3) Angels have the inner form of a servant.

    #305708
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 12 2012,23:03)
    Mike,

    The ongoing action “seeing” does not stop before the past action “decided” initiates. Instead the “seeing” results in the “decided”.  In fact a wise candidate would continue to keep an eye on things on the ground just in case circumstances changed.

    Philippians 2:6-7 tells us that Jesus was in the form of God when he saw equality with God a thing not to  be strived for but instead emptied himself; and chose to take on the form of a servant.  Just like President Obama seeing and making and decision at the same time, Jesus was in the form of God when he took on the form of a servant.

    It does not work how you hope it does as 1) Jesus is not said to have the form of an angel, 2) The outward form leads no one to see equality with God as thing not be strove for, 3) Angels have the inner form of a servant.


    kerwin

    did you ever read the scriptures once ??? I start to wander.

    #305725
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    Do you agree that “existing in the form of God” is PAST TENSE, otherwise Paul would have been writing about the form Jesus was in AT THE TIME Paul actually wrote the letter? YES or NO?

    And Jesus cannot be in the form of God and in the form of a servant at the same time. He could be in the form of God UP UNTIL THE VERY LAST SECOND before taking the form of a servant, but not both at the same time. At least not in this context – unless you believe God is a servant. Paul was CONTRASTING one form Jesus was in from a DIFFERENT form Jesus was in. Can you see that?

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