Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #305045
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 06 2012,10:30)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,11:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,18:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36)
    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    who is the “”himself “””???in that scripture


    You don't know?


    edj

    please answer the question and so I will answer you again


    “Himself” in Phil.2:7 refers to Jesus.


    RIGHT

    COULD YOU NOW TELL ME HOW AND WHY HE DID IT ???

    #305046
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,12:21)
    T8;

    You are inadvertently altering the passage when you replace “the nature of a servant” with “the nature of man.  Philippians 2:6-7 is clearly speaking of the inner nature of God as Jesus sees equality to God as something not to be grasped because of that nature.   Satan has the outer nature of an angel and yet does seek to be equal to God.  In addition “nature of a servant” speaks of the inner nature as both those with outer natures of an angel and of a human can have the inner nature of a servant.

    The order of things seems to infer that all that was done previously to Jesus being “made” in the likeness of humanity but the word “made” is elsewhere translated “born” so it bears more looking into.


    Philippians 2:7
    Context
    NET ©
    but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, 1 by looking like other men, 2 and by sharing in human nature. 3
    NIV ©
    but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
    NASB ©
    but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
    NLT ©
    He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form.
    MSG ©
    Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became [human]!
    BBE ©
    But he made himself as nothing, taking the form of a servant, being made like men;
    NRSV ©
    but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form,
    NKJV ©
    but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
    KJV
    But
    made
    (0) himself
    of no reputation
    (5656)_, and took upon him
    (5631) the form
    of a servant
    _, and was made
    (5637) in
    the likeness
    of men
    _:
    NASB ©
    but emptied
    Himself
    , taking
    the form
    of a bond-servant
    , and being
    made
    in the likeness
    of men
    .
    GREEK
    alla

    CONJeauton

    F-3ASMekenwsen
    (5656)
    V-AAI-3Smorfhn

    N-ASFdoulou

    N-GSMlabwn
    (5631)
    V-2AAP-NSMen

    PREPomoiwmati

    N-DSNanyrwpwn

    N-GPMgenomenov
    (5637)
    V-2ADP-NSMkai

    CONJschmati

    N-DSN

    STUDY SCRIPTURES IS NOT ALWAYS ASKING QUESTIONS BUT RESEARCHED

    #305048
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2012,06:57)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 06 2012,10:30)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,11:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,18:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36)
    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    who is the “”himself “””???in that scripture


    You don't know?


    edj

    please answer the question and so I will answer you again


    “Himself” in Phil.2:7 refers to Jesus.


    RIGHT

    COULD YOU NOW TELL ME HOW AND WHY HE DID IT ???


    Hi Pierre,

    How and why he did what?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305049
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Pierre: I assume you mean the crucifixion.

    How: by antagonizing the Sanhedrin to want him killed.
    Why: to separate the spirit of Lucifer from the God Spirit.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305058
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 06 2012,14:16)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 06 2012,06:57)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 06 2012,10:30)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,11:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,18:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36)
    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    who is the “”himself “””???in that scripture


    You don't know?


    edj

    please answer the question and so I will answer you again


    “Himself” in Phil.2:7 refers to Jesus.


    RIGHT

    COULD YOU NOW TELL ME HOW AND WHY HE DID IT ???


    Hi Pierre,

    How and why he did what?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    ed

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    what is it that Christ does by himself ,and how did he do it ???

    #305064
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Pierre, I explained in this post…

    Quote (Ed J @ July 06 2012,07:20)
    Hi Pierre: I assume you mean the crucifixion.

    How: by antagonizing the Sanhedrin to want him killed.
    Why: to separate the spirit of Lucifer from the God Spirit.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305066
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,08:21)
    T8;

    You are inadvertently altering the passage when you replace “the nature of a servant” with “the nature of man.  

    The order of things seems to infer that all that was done previously to Jesus being “made” in the likeness of humanity but the word “made” is elsewhere translated “born” so it bears more looking into.


    being made in human likeness…

    Is that clear enough?

    If he was made in the likeness of humans, then he has human nature does he not?

    #305092
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ July 06 2012,05:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,08:21)
    T8;

    You are inadvertently altering the passage when you replace “the nature of a servant” with “the nature of man.  

    The order of things seems to infer that all that was done previously to Jesus being “made” in the likeness of humanity but the word “made” is elsewhere translated “born” so it bears more looking into.


    being made in human likeness…

    Is that clear enough?

    If he was made in the likeness of humans, then he has human nature does he not?


    T8;

    Jesus was made with a human nature but that does not justify substituting that fact for the fact he chose to serve God. I assure you that not all humans willingly serve Jehovah. The inner human nature is the flesh nature as it falls short of the godly nature. It is the godly nature that compels one to humble themselves and take on the nature of a servant. The outer nature counts for nothing.

    Jehovah is our Creator and thus he chose to make Jesus in the likeness of humanity and not in the likeness of the Messengers. His reason for that choice is that it is humans that Jesus aids and not Messengers.

    #305093
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:47)
    Actually Kerwin,

    I have some better questions for you:

    When was Jesus existing as something other than a human being so that he had to be (your words) “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?

    And what was he existing as before he had to be “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?


    Mike;

    I do not believe he had to be anything as the same word is used with Abraham in the statement “before Abraham was made, I am”.

    I do know that Jehovah chose to make Jesus in the likeness of humanity and not Messengers; as it is humans he helps and not Messengers.

    #305142
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I have no clue what you are talking about with your Abraham reference, but I read your answer to my post and to t8's post, and it seems you are missing a step:

    Was existing in the form of God > was made in the likeness of a human being.

    Your claim that Jehovah made him from nothing into the likeness of a human being seems to ignore Phil 2:6, where we're told Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made into a human being.

    #305150
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,05:12)
    I have no clue what you are talking about with your Abraham reference, but I read your answer to my post and to t8's post, and it seems you are missing a step:

    Was existing in the form of God > was made in the likeness of a human being.

    Your claim that Jehovah made him from nothing into the likeness of a human being seems to ignore Phil 2:6, where we're told Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made into a human being.


    Mike,

    Did Abraham exist before he was “made” of woman?

    Do you believe that a person can have the inner form of God and the outer likeness of humanity?

    #305157
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin, you don't seem to be addressing the point here. Jesus was existing in the form of God, [but then] was made into the likeness of a human being.

    Where is that said about Abraham?

    Your last question is getting into philosophy, and I'd rather not go there unless the scriptures clearly answer the question you asked. If not, we would just be wasting time speculating anyway, right?

    #305183
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,06:05)
    Kerwin, you don't seem to be addressing the point here.  Jesus was existing in the form of God, [but then] was made into the likeness of a human being.

    Where is that said about Abraham?

    Your last question is getting into philosophy, and I'd rather not go there unless the scriptures clearly answer the question you asked.  If not, we would just be wasting time speculating anyway, right?


    Mike;

    As for Abraham; I did not know that there was any doubt he was born of woman.  

    If my memory serves me well then the same Greek ancient Greek word is used in relation to the “made” in Philippians 2:7.

    Christianity is the philosophy of God.  I do not know what you think a philosophy is but the people of that time saw it as a way of life.  An example of this is stoicism

    I believe you were speaking of speculative matters that cannot be tested for either truth or falseness.

    The Scriptures does answer the question if you understand the words.

    Does the Spirit have likeness of the inner form of God?

    Does the new man?

    Does Scripture teach that their are humans with the Spirit?

    #305187
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,22:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:47)
    Actually Kerwin,

    I have some better questions for you:

    When was Jesus existing as something other than a human being so that he had to be (your words) “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?

    And what was he existing as before he had to be “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?


    Mike;

    I do not believe he had to be anything as the same word is used with Abraham in the statement “before Abraham was made, I am”.  

    I do know that Jehovah chose to make Jesus in the likeness of humanity and not Messengers; as it is humans he helps and not Messengers.


    k

    Quote
    I do not believe

    is this you version of the truth of the word of God ???

    I was always taught that we have to believe what scriptures says ,not WHAT WE MAY BELIEVE OR NOT ,THIS HIS IRRELEVANT,TO ANYONE THAT BELIEVE IN SCRIPTURES.

    #305202
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,17:57)
    T8;

    Jesus was made with a human nature but that does not justify substituting that fact for the fact he chose to serve God. I assure you that not all humans willingly serve Jehovah. The inner human nature is the flesh nature as it falls short of the godly nature. It is the godly nature that compels one to humble themselves and take on the nature of a servant. The outer nature counts for nothing.

    Jehovah is our Creator and thus he chose to make Jesus in the likeness of humanity and not in the likeness of the Messengers. His reason for that choice is that it is humans that Jesus aids and not Messengers.


    Sorry I am not following you.

    What part of your post disproves that Jesus existed in the form of God or with divine nature, emptied himself and came as a man/being with human nature.

    Nothing from what I can tell.

    The scripture stands.

    #305217
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,20:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,06:05)
    Kerwin, you don't seem to be addressing the point here.  Jesus was existing in the form of God, [but then] was made into the likeness of a human being.

    Where is that said about Abraham?


    Mike;

    As for Abraham; I did not know that there was any doubt he was born of woman.  


    Where was Abraham said to have existed in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being?

    Your words about Abraham do bring up another point, though:

    Galatians 4:4
    But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,

    If there was never any doubt that Jesus was ONLY born of a woman, then why did Paul write what he did in the above verse?  The only reason to specify that the Son God sent was born of a woman is if there was another existence Jesus was having before being born of a woman.  Otherwise, Paul would have been subject to people like you saying, “I did not know that there was any doubt he was born of woman, so why mention it?”

    To which Paul would have answered:  Jesus was existing in the form of God BEFORE being born of a woman.

    And THAT, Kerwin, remains the point of the discussion: Jesus was existing in the form of God BEFORE being made into the likeness of a human being.

    #305218
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,05:21)
    T8;

    You are inadvertently altering the passage when you replace “the nature of a servant” with “the nature of man.  Philippians 2:6-7 is clearly speaking of the inner nature of God as Jesus sees equality to God as something not to be grasped because of that nature.   Satan has the outer nature of an angel and yet does seek to be equal to God.  In addition “nature of a servant” speaks of the inner nature as both those with outer natures of an angel and of a human can have the inner nature of a servant.

    The order of things seems to infer that all that was done previously to Jesus being “made” in the likeness of humanity but the word “made” is elsewhere translated “born” so it bears more looking into.


    Kerwin……….You have it right Brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

    #305223
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2012,09:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,05:21)
    T8;

    You are inadvertently altering the passage when you replace “the nature of a servant” with “the nature of man.  Philippians 2:6-7 is clearly speaking of the inner nature of God as Jesus sees equality to God as something not to be grasped because of that nature.   Satan has the outer nature of an angel and yet does seek to be equal to God.  In addition “nature of a servant” speaks of the inner nature as both those with outer natures of an angel and of a human can have the inner nature of a servant.

    The order of things seems to infer that all that was done previously to Jesus being “made” in the likeness of humanity but the word “made” is elsewhere translated “born” so it bears more looking into.


    Kerwin……….You have it right Brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    GENE

    what is an INNER NATURE ????

    #305327
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Where was Abraham said to have existed in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being?

    I was adressing the fact that Scripture testified Abraham was ginomai as was Jesus ginomai in the likeness of men. Jesus was also ginomai of woman and ginomai under the Law.

    As to your question Abraham is only credited with being in the form of God while Jesus and the new man both exist in the form of God. Humanity was created in the form of God but chased after many inventions.

    Jesus outer man is the Son of man and his inner man is the Son of God.

    Jesus posed this question:

    Luke 20:44
    King James Version (KJV)

    44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

    The answer is also in Scripture.

    Romans 1:3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Quote
    And THAT, Kerwin, remains the point of the discussion: Jesus was existing in the form of God BEFORE being made into the likeness of a human being.

    If you are only go by the order of things in the sentence it does appear that Jesus chose to become a srvant before being ginomai in the likeness of humanity. One possible flaw to such reasoning is that Ginomai is a word with multiple meanings.

    #305330
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ July 07 2012,15:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,17:57)
    T8;

    Jesus was made with a human nature but that does not justify substituting that fact for the fact he chose to serve God.  I assure you that not all humans willingly serve Jehovah.  The inner human nature is the flesh nature as it falls short of the godly nature.  It is the godly nature that compels one to humble themselves and take on the nature of a servant.  The outer nature counts for nothing.

    Jehovah is our Creator and thus he chose to make Jesus in the likeness of humanity and not in the likeness of the Messengers.  His reason for that choice is that it is humans that Jesus aids and not Messengers.


    Sorry I am not following you.

    What part of your post disproves that Jesus existed in the form of God or with divine nature, emptied himself and came as a man/being with human nature.

    Nothing from what I can tell.

    The scripture stands.


    T8,

    I am more concerned that the teaching of this Scripture be retained than disproving your teaching of preexistence. Much of what you say about this Philippians 2 does not work within the context as its purpose as God's purpose for it is to teach us to be like minded with Christ who exists both in the form of God and the form of a servant.

    The element order within the sentence can be construed to infer preexistence because “ginomai” has some meanings that do so.

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