Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #304882
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8;

    If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived. You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them. The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.

    I chose to use a false interpretation that we would both agree is false to reveal that an untruth can be gleaned from an apparent reasonable inference.

    One that use the context of Philippians 2:5 is Jesus having the mind of God and therefore not desiring to be equal to God but emptied himself of that desire taking on the mind of a servant.

    #304887
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,18:52)
    T8;

    If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived.   You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them.  The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.  

    I chose to use a false interpretation that we would both agree is false to reveal that an untruth can be gleaned from an apparent reasonable inference.

    One that use the context of Philippians 2:5 is Jesus having the mind of God and therefore not desiring to be equal to God but emptied himself of that desire taking on the mind of a servant.


    Kerwin…………You have it right brother. Jesus had the mind of God and therefore His Natural while in the flesh on this earth , and laid it aside and took on the Nature of a servant. While at time of his earth existences , not some Preexist pas as T8 and Mike and others “ASSUME”. The past Paul was talking about was his earthly existence. He was not referencing anything before that time at all.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

    #304888
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,09:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,03:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00)
    I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable.  I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.


    It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures.  So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.


    Mike;

    Jesus has never had authority equal to Jehovah.  He has always served Jehovah.  That flawed interpretation may be held by those Trinitarians that hold that Jesus has equal authority to Jehovah.  If you think it through carefully I am sure you will realize that you too hold it to be false.

    The lesson of this passage is having the same mind-set as Christ and so replacing form with mind-set is more reasonable than using authority.  It also goes with the words “thought it not robbery to be equal with God”.  

    Jesus having the  same mindset as God thought it not robbery to be equal to God, emptied himself, taking on the mindset of a servant.  

    A servant has a mindset that is willing to serve and not be equal to God; and therefore meek towards God.  Emptied himself therefore means to become meek.

    That is what I have been brought to understand.  T8 sees it different as he believes that Jesus was the nature of God and then emptied him self of that nature,  taking on the the nature of humanity; not that of angels.  He does this by applying the  words of Hebrews 2:16 to the pattern set forth in Philippians 2:6-7; just as I applied the words of Philippians 2:5.

    It seems T8 believes that Jesus was not originally either a human or an angel but was a Jehovah and then stopped being a Jehovah and became a human being and not an angel.


    Kerwin……….Years ago i did an extensive search on the words ” thought it not robbery to be made equal with God”, it he should be rendered , “Thought not to rob God to make himself equal with him”.

    Another word Jesus never tried to make himself equal with God even though he had been given so much authority and power , but he took on the “attitude” or Nature of a Servant , you have it right on this brother. Paul was Just giving us an example of Jesus' Mindset in his relationship with God being fully Obedient to him, setting us an example of our relationship we should have also.

    Philip  2:6-8, Has nothing to do with a Past earthly existence at all.  Preexistences like their counter part Trinitarians are forcing the text to say what in fact is is not saying at all. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

    #304902
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2012,07:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,09:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,03:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00)
    I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable.  I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.


    It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures.  So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.


    Mike;

    Jesus has never had authority equal to Jehovah.  He has always served Jehovah.  That flawed interpretation may be held by those Trinitarians that hold that Jesus has equal authority to Jehovah.  If you think it through carefully I am sure you will realize that you too hold it to be false.

    The lesson of this passage is having the same mind-set as Christ and so replacing form with mind-set is more reasonable than using authority.  It also goes with the words “thought it not robbery to be equal with God”.  

    Jesus having the  same mindset as God thought it not robbery to be equal to God, emptied himself, taking on the mindset of a servant.  

    A servant has a mindset that is willing to serve and not be equal to God; and therefore meek towards God.  Emptied himself therefore means to become meek.

    That is what I have been brought to understand.  T8 sees it different as he believes that Jesus was the nature of God and then emptied him self of that nature,  taking on the the nature of humanity; not that of angels.  He does this by applying the  words of Hebrews 2:16 to the pattern set forth in Philippians 2:6-7; just as I applied the words of Philippians 2:5.

    It seems T8 believes that Jesus was not originally either a human or an angel but was a Jehovah and then stopped being a Jehovah and became a human being and not an angel.


    Kerwin……….Years ago i did an extensive search on the word ” thought it not robbery to be made equal with God” it he should be rendered , “Thought not to rob God to make himself equal with him”.

    Another word Jesus never tried to make himself equal with God even thought he had been given so much authority and power , but he took on the attitude or Nature of a Servant , you have it right on this brother. Paul was Just giving us an example off Jesus Mindset in his relationship with God being fully Obedient to him setting us an example of our relationship we should have also.

    Philip  2:6-8, Has nothing to do with a Past earthly existence at all.  Preexistences like their counter part Trinitarians are forcing the text to say what in fact is is not saying at all. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene


    gene

    :D :D :D what a pair of guy's you are,how can you interpret the words of God ,if not through his own scriptures ,

    it says 'your taught's are not my taught s say God ,

    were are the scriptures to show that what we interpret is wrong??? you never did present one ,and if you do then you have to twisted to mean what you try to say ,this is not being truthful is it ???

    #304925
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,05:26)
    I have no clue why you're even talking about “authority”.  The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance of a person or thing”.

    Jesus was existing with an outward appearance like that of God when he was a spirit being, but then took on the the outward appearance of a lowly servant by being made into a human being.  Humans are “a little lower than the angels”, right?

    I'm just glad I got the chance to see your own words saying t8's interpretation of Phil 2 was “reasonable”.  If you'd let go of your personal WISH for Jesus to have been exactly like you, you'd be able to see that not only is it very reasonable, but aligns with every other scripture in the Bible, while coming into contrast with absolutely none of them.


    Mike;

    Morph is not restricted to just outside appearance despite what you have been led to believe.  It has much the same use as reflection, image, or any other word that is a synonym.

    Quote
    3444 morphḗ – properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence.

    Do you believe that Jesus having the outward appearance of God saw equality with God as something not be grasped but emptied himself and took on the outward appearance of a servant?  I do not believe that you do once you consider it as am of the belief that you believe God judges by the heart and not by the outward appearance.

    The words are not “form of a human” but they are “form of a servant” and Angels and Humans are both servants.  God is not.  Unless you using a Trinitarian interpretation you are inferring that he emptied himself of the outward appearance of a higher servant just to take on the outward appearance of a lower servant.

    Note: My source is here.

    #304977
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    Is “authority” a synonym of “outward appearance”?

    And btw, the words are “was existing in the form of God”………………”emptied himself”………………………..”and was made into the likeness of a human being”.

    #304983
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305006
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike;

    I know that the English word “shape” can be used to describe authority and that certain experts state the ancient Greek word “morph” can be used as the outward expression that embodies an inner substance. I do not believe that Phillipians 2 is speaking of authority even though a litteral understanding of clauses “shape of God” and “shape of a servant” give that impression.

    Jesus chose to be a servant and was created in the likeness of humanity. He did not choose to be a human but was made one by Jehovah.

    Jesus being in the very form of Jehovah; saw equality with him as something not to be grasped but emptied himself taking on the form of a servant; and was made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity.

    It can be seen that Jehovah's mindset led Jesus to empty himself and take on the mindset of a servant.

    #305007
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36)
    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    who is the “”himself “””???in that scripture

    #305009
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Good, then we agree that “authority” is not what is meant by the word “morphe” in Phil 2, and therefore shouldn't waste time discussing things that neither of us even believe.

    You said, Jesus being in the very form of Jehovah; saw equality with him as something not to be grasped but emptied himself taking on the form of a servant; and was made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity.

    We seem to agree on this as well. Jesus was existing in the form of God, but emptied himself and was made by Jehovah in the likeness of a human being.

    So how does this not speak of someone who was existing in one form, and then was made into a different one?

    #305010
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Actually Kerwin,

    I have some better questions for you:

    When was Jesus existing as something other than a human being so that he had to be (your words) “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?

    And what was he existing as before he had to be “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity”?

    #305014
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,21:52)
    T8;

    If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived.   You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them.  The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.

    Who, being in very nature God, 
      did not consider equality with God
    something to be used to his own advantage;
    rather, he made himself nothing
     by taking the very nature of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.
    And being found in appearance as a man,
     he humbled himself
     by becoming obedient to death —
     even death on a cross!
    Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
     and gave him the name that is above every name,
    that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
     in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    What can you say now. Scripture speaks for itself.
    These are my words yes, but I have been given them.
    I am not the author.
    Not my problem if you deny what the author wrote.
    You are the one trying to get around what these words say.
    I just accept them because I also accept that I am a student.
    And remember, before you post in haste, that you are arguing not against me with this.
    So long as you are aware that you are arguing against the author.

    #305015
    terraricca
    Participant

    all

    Phil 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
    Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    what is Paul try to say ,or what is it that we can learn??

    yes we can see that Paul believed that Christ existed way before he came down to earth has a man,

    so what it mean wen Paul say ;;being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    let see it from the true perspective;Christ being the first of Gods creation ,the only creation made by God himself and so posses the nature of God ,;now Christ the son of God is ask to go down to earth and to give up and die there in a brutal way,;;think Christ could now call up his title and his high vesting nature ;to decline that request,and who would blame him ??? but HE DID NOT DO THAT ,WHY BECAUSE HIS FATHER ASK HIM TO DO IT ,AND SO HE DID;; but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,

    THIS SCRIPTURE SHOW THAT HE LEFT HIS GODLY NATURE(position) FOR A SERVANT NATURE(position) ,his servant nature means being a man ??? of cause NOT,THIS ONLY MEAN THAT HE SURRENDER HIMSELF TO WHAT HIS FATHER ASK AND SO BECAME A SERVANT TO HIS FATHER WILL (Christ has mention this many times )

    ( if you would know Moses story you could understand this better)

    what was their in for Christ ???

    Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,
    Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    yes the son of God find delight in mankind ,and so accept to save it

    #305016
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36)
    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    who is the “”himself “””???in that scripture


    You don't know?

    #305017
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,18:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36)
    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    who is the “”himself “””???in that scripture


    You don't know?


    edj

    please answer the question and so I will answer you again

    #305028
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ July 05 2012,06:00)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2012,21:52)
    T8;

    If you believe you are only quoting Scriptures then you are deceived.   You are interpreting those Scriptures as you seek to know them.  The question you should be asking is whether that interpretation is from God or man.

    Who, being in very nature God, 
      did not consider equality with God
     something to be used to his own advantage;
     rather, he made himself nothing
     by taking the very nature of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.
    And being found in appearance as a man,
     he humbled himself
     by becoming obedient to death —
     even death on a cross!
    Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
     and gave him the name that is above every name,
     that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
     in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
     and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
     to the glory of God the Father.

    What can you say now. Scripture speaks for itself.
    These are my words yes, but I have been given them.
    I am not the author.
    Not my problem if you deny what the author wrote.
    You are the one trying to get around what these words say.
    I just accept them because I also accept that I am a student.
    And remember, before you post in haste, that you are arguing not against me with this.
    So long as you are aware that you are arguing against the author.


    T8;

    You are not seeing the words that you wrote but only what you have been told they mean.

    Don't you know that there is a godly nature; of whom God is the originator?

    Isn't a characteristic of that nature, to see equality with Jehovah as something not to be grasped but instead to humble yourself and take on the nature of a servant.

    As a servant he was created by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity; and being found in that appearance he served by sacrificing himself on the cross. As a reward Jehovah gave his servant eternal life and exalted him to the highest place.

    There is nothing about angels in this passage.

    #305029
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    kerwin.

    It is not really a mystery that he had the nature of God.
    That is not what is being disputed.
    It is the order that you are not seeing and you are not seeing because a predefined belief is getting in the way as they tend to do.

    The fact that you do not acknowledge the following proves this.

    Who, being in very nature God, 
    did not consider equality with God
    something to be used to his own advantage;
    rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    Any reasonable person can easily see that he was made in human likeness after he existed with the nature of God. Not only that, but we have a second witness in the verse that says that he emptied himself or made himself nothing between natures.

    So nature of God/divine nature > emptied himself > nature of man/human nature.

    You refuse to see this even though it is written for all to see. It is not my fault that you cannot see it. Maybe you have been made blind or maybe you are just obstinate. I am not going to say which, but it is certainly something.

    You have zero change of talking me out of believing what the scripture says.

    #305033
    terraricca
    Participant

    T8

    in Phili;2 ; the word “nature ” stands for “position”(status) not for being built or created in, Paul seems to make the connection between Christ position and chose to become lower ,humbling himself to become vested in the flesh (little lower than the angels)

    see Christ position was the closes to God and ;

    Phil 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
    Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!

    so it is the HUMILITY of Christ that Paul his talking about ,not his creation ,but the fact that he chose not his own interest but the one of men and the will of his father.

    #305038
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,11:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,18:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 05 2012,10:21)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2012,12:36)
    Hi Mike, here is what Phil.2:7-8 actually says…

    Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
    the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,
    and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
                                   
    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    who is the “”himself “””???in that scripture


    You don't know?


    edj

    please answer the question and so I will answer you again


    “Himself” in Phil.2:7 refers to Jesus.

    #305044
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8;

    You are inadvertently altering the passage when you replace “the nature of a servant” with “the nature of man.  Philippians 2:6-7 is clearly speaking of the inner nature of God as Jesus sees equality to God as something not to be grasped because of that nature.   Satan has the outer nature of an angel and yet does seek to be equal to God.  In addition “nature of a servant” speaks of the inner nature as both those with outer natures of an angel and of a human can have the inner nature of a servant.

    The order of things seems to infer that all that was done previously to Jesus being “made” in the likeness of humanity but the word “made” is elsewhere translated “born” so it bears more looking into.

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