Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #304615
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…….Where it says in Revelation that Jesus gave it to His angel to give to the Churches, that Angel or “MESSENGER” was JOHN and the message was to the Churches . John gave the churches the words given him by Jesus who recieved it from God the FATHER who is SPIRIT, therefore it says to him that hears what the “SPIRIT” is saying to the Churches

    peace and love to all………………………………………………………..gene

    #304619
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,00:41)
    To all…….Where it says in Revelation that Jesus gave it to His angel to give to the Churches, that Angel or “MESSENGER” was JOHN and the message was to the Churches . John gave the churches the words given him by Jesus who recieved it from God the FATHER who is SPIRIT, therefore it says to him that hears what the “SPIRIT” is saying to the Churches

    peace and love to all………………………………………………………..gene


    GeneB.

    Rev.1:10. I (John) was in the spirit on the Lords day and heard behind me A GREAT VOICE, as of a trumpet.

    Verse 11. saying,I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA THE FIRST AND THE LAST: What thou seest,write in a book,and send it unto the seven churches which are in asia.—–

    We know that the Alpha and Omega is Jesus.
    Verse 17. —-FEAR NOT,I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:

    Verse 18. I AM HE THAT LIVETH,AND WAS DEAD: and behold, I am alive for ever more; Amen; and have the keys of hell and death.

    Is the ALPHA AND OMEGA just a spirit? or is he jesus?
    I need an answer.

    wakeup.

    #304699
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ June 30 2012,05:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,09:45)
    To all;

    You all know it is written that the the World to come is not subject to Messengers.  If you state Messengers means both man and angelic beings then you state it is not subject to Jesus Christ.  You know that is not true. That leaves you with two possibilities which are:

    1}  The earth is subject to humanity and the creatures from the realm of spirit are called angels

    2}  The earth is subject to the creatures from the realm of spirit and humanity is called angels.

    Elsewhere it is written that humanity is created a little lower than the Messengers.  In that passage it can be seen that:

    1} Jesus was created a human
    2} The Messengers spoken of are not part of humanity.

    It is also written that instead of taking on the nature of Messengers he took on himself the seed of Abraham.  This teaches us that:

    1} the Messengers spoken of are not the seed of Abraham
    2} Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham
    3} Jesus Christ does not have the nature of the Messengers spoken of.


    Kerwin.

    What are the apostles? Have they not given us the message?
    Are they not men?

    Example; the book of revelation:came from God,he gave it to Jesus, and Jesus gave it o the angel, and the angel gave it to John, and john gave it to the churches,and the churches give it to the world. From Jesus –to — the churches and the individual are all  messengers.
    Jesus/angels/men/ all are messengers.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup;

    Is the Spirit the wind?  Can you tell when the word wind means spirit and when it means wind?

    I already pointed out why the context of several verses in  Hebrews does not allow angel to equal human messenger.  I also pointed out why it does not all angel to equal Jesus Christ when it speaks of the World not being subject to angels.

    James 2:25 calls humans angels.  Context reveals that fact.

    Note: I corrected my mis-writting by replacing the word spirit with wind.

    #304701
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2012,22:12)

    Quote (Wakeup @ June 30 2012,05:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,09:45)
    To all;

    You all know it is written that the the World to come is not subject to Messengers.  If you state Messengers means both man and angelic beings then you state it is not subject to Jesus Christ.  You know that is not true. That leaves you with two possibilities which are:

    1}  The earth is subject to humanity and the creatures from the realm of spirit are called angels

    2}  The earth is subject to the creatures from the realm of spirit and humanity is called angels.

    Elsewhere it is written that humanity is created a little lower than the Messengers.  In that passage it can be seen that:

    1} Jesus was created a human
    2} The Messengers spoken of are not part of humanity.

    It is also written that instead of taking on the nature of Messengers he took on himself the seed of Abraham.  This teaches us that:

    1} the Messengers spoken of are not the seed of Abraham
    2} Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham
    3} Jesus Christ does not have the nature of the Messengers spoken of.


    Kerwin.

    What are the apostles? Have they not given us the message?
    Are they not men?

    Example; the book of revelation:came from God,he gave it to Jesus, and Jesus gave it o the angel, and the angel gave it to John, and john gave it to the churches,and the churches give it to the world. From Jesus –to — the churches and the individual are all  messengers.
    Jesus/angels/men/ all are messengers.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup;

    Is the Spirit the wind?  Can you tell when the word wind means spirit and when it means spirit?

    I already pointed out why the context of several verses in  Hebrews does not allow angel to equal human messenger.  I also pointed out why it does not all angel to equal Jesus Christ when it speaks of the World not being subject to angels.

    James 2:25 calls humans angels.  Context reveals that fact.


    K

    You have ask me that question,as well,but I am start to wander what is your game you are playing,

    You do not have insight or scriptures understanding ,beside what is commonly known to all,

    You have rejected the truth in scriptures over your own desire and believe,

    It seems to me that you have a double mind ,see James :…

    #304707
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    I am not blown to and fro by the winds of doctrine but I do like to hear reason in your responses.  I am already conceding the word angel means messenger and that scouts, prophets, teachers, ect. can be called messenger.  

    I am just pointing out that Jesus was not created with the nature of a creature of the realm of spirit; nor will the World to come be subject to anyone that is; as Hebrews teaches us that it will not.

    The World to come will not be subject to “the angel of the Lord” spoken of in Exodus 3:2 as appearing in a flame of fire out of the burning bush as the World to Come is not subject to such beings.  “The angel of the Lord” who spoke from the heaven to Abraham in Genesis 22:15 is not Jesus because God did not speak through his Son at that time but is only speaking through him in these last days.

    Why do you seem to have difficulties understanding these simple things?

    #304708
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    I apologize for writing the word spirit as opposed to the correct word wind in my earlier post. I have now corrected that error and put a note to that effect.

    #304711
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2012,23:06)
    T;

    I am not blown to and fro by the winds of doctrine but I do like to hear reason in your responses.  I am already conceding the word angel means messenger and that scouts, prophets, teachers, ect. can be called messenger.  

    I am just pointing out that Jesus was not created with the nature of a creature of the realm of spirit; nor will the World to come be subject to anyone that is; as Hebrews teaches us that it will not.

    The World to come will not be subject to “the angel of the Lord” spoken of in Exodus 3:2 as appearing in a flame of fire out of the burning bush as the World to Come is not subject to such beings.  “The angel of the Lord” who spoke from the heaven to Abraham in Genesis 22:15 is not Jesus because God did not speak through his Son at that time but is only speaking through him in these last days.

    Why do you seem to have difficulties understanding these simple things?


    K

    I do not understand lies or mis interpretation ,
    They both have no meaning in Gods truth

    #304712
    terraricca
    Participant

    K

    Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
    And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,

    Also see Pro:8;22-31

    And John1:14

    And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,

    #304721
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2012,00:41)
    To all…….Where it says in Revelation that Jesus gave it to His angel to give to the Churches, that Angel or “MESSENGER” was JOHN and the message was to the Churches . John gave the churches the words given him by Jesus who recieved it from God the FATHER who is SPIRIT, therefore it says to him that hears what the “SPIRIT” is saying to the Churches

    peace and love to all………………………………………………………..gene


    GeneB.

    You need to read Rev.19:10. and 22:8.9.
    These angels are real creatures,not just the spirit of john.

    wakeup.

    #304726
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Wakeup…………I never said Angels weren't “real” creatures. Look up the word angels and it can imply an angel “being” or a human “being” as brought out here already , and either can be “messengers” or Angles of GOD. You are forcing what i have written to say what i have not said and it appears you are doing that with scriptures also brother or sister? Lets keep thing in context of what is actually written no where have i said the “SPIRIT of JOHN”. The Spirit is GOD , and (IT) is the ALPHA and OMEGA, Not Jesus as you presume it is saying. Remember it say the source of Revelation is from GOD not Jesus, remember it is what “what God gave Jesus to show unto his servants not what Jesus gave unto his servants.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………gene

    #304801
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,12:08)
    K

    Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
    And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,

    Also see Pro:8;22-31

    And John1:14

    And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,


    T;

    Your chosen interpretations infers that

    1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven.

    2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.

    3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms.

    This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another.

    #304802
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,21:19)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,12:08)
    K

    Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
    And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,

    Also see Pro:8;22-31

    And John1:14

    And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,


    T;

    Your chosen interpretations infers that

    1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven.

    2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.

    3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms.

    This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another.


    K

    Quote
    T;

    Your chosen interpretations infers that

    1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven.

    2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.

    3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms.

    This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another.

    could you produce the scriptures for your believe ???

    Quote
    2} Jesus Anointed took on the nature of a creature of the heavenly realms.


    scriptures please ????

    Quote
    3} Jesus was created superior to creatures of the heavenly realms.

    this is true he his a god ,John 1;1 and Col 1;15-16 and Prov;8;22;23

    Quote
    1} The World to Come is subject to creatures of the realms of heaven.

    scriptures please

    Quote
    This cannot be as the Writings do not conflict with one another.

    you are what you are ,you have not proving anything and or disproving anything ,so you are a double minded person. not good.

    #304804
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 01 2012,12:08)
    K

    Christ was created the first Col:1;15-20
    And sins his father his spirit he his part of that spirit realm,

    Also see Pro:8;22-31

    And John1:14

    And many others list to long ,but see topic preexistance of Christ,


    T;

    Jesus Anointed did not take on the nature of a creature of the realms of heaven. Colossians 1:15 does not contradict that, not does it contradict the fact he took on the seed of Abraham.

    Jesus is the firstborn of creation who did not take on the nature of angel, but has taken on the seed of Abraham. He was also made a little lower than the angels; then later elevated above them. The World to Come is subject to him, but not to angels. Angels give homage to him.

    Pro:8;22-31 is speaking of Wisdom and addressing her as a female. Jesus calls himself and John the Baptist her children, Matthew 11:17.

    John 1:14 is speaking of the Word of God and addressing him as a male.

    #304805
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,17:58)
    Jesus is the firstborn of creation who did not take on the nature of angel, but has taken on the seed of Abraham. He was also made a little lower than the angels; then later elevated above them.


    Correct. He did not take on the nature of angels.
    Rather he existed in the form of God, or the nature of God, emptied himself, and took on the form of man or the nature of man. Now he is back in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

    #304806
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2012,00:33)
    Wakeup…………I never said Angels weren't “real” creatures. Look up the word angels and it can imply an angel “being” or a human “being” as brought out here already  , and either can be “messengers” or Angles of GOD.  You are forcing what i have written to say what i have not said and it appears you are doing that with scriptures also brother or sister?  Lets keep thing in context of what is actually written no where have i said the “SPIRIT of JOHN”. The Spirit is GOD , and (IT) is the ALPHA and OMEGA, Not Jesus as you presume it is saying. Remember it say the source of Revelation is from GOD not Jesus, remember it is what “what   God gave Jesus to show unto his servants not what Jesus gave unto his servants.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………gene


    Gene B.

    You obviously are still confused about Jesus,who he really is.
    God said '' I am the Lord and beside me there is no saviour.
    First you must sort this out before we can discuss any further.To know Jesus is discovering a great mystery,and I know that you have not reached this level yet.
    ———————————————————-
    An angel of God is not human: agree.
    An angel can be send down with a message. agree.
    A human is not a spirit angel. agree
    But a human can also be send by God with a message. Agree.

    So what ever is send by God with a message is a messenger.Agree.

    But the angels of God are all messengers.(that is their profession.).Going up and down to earth with messages to mankind.
    Not all humans are messengers,only some.
    —————————————————

    You said: the spirit is God and it is the alpha and omega;
    not jesus as you persume it is saying.
    ——————————————————–
    Let me quote those scriptures once more:
    Rev.1:18. I am he THAT LIVED AND WAS DEAD(Jesus)—-(THE SIPRIT OF GOD WAS DEAD??)is this what you are saying?

    Rev.22:12 And behold I (jesus) come quickly; AND MY REWARD IS WITH ME,to give every man according as his work shall be.THE SAME ALPHA AND OMEGA IS COMING.

    Rev22:13. I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA (THE SAME JESUS SPEAKING) the beginning and the end.

    The ALPHA AND OMEGA is coming with his reward.
    The first and the last is coming with his reward.
    The first and the last was dead and is alive fore ever more.

    wakeup.

    #304812
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ July 02 2012,10:41)
    Correct. He did not take on the nature of angels.
    Rather he existed in the form of God, or the nature of God, emptied himself, and took on the form of man or the nature of man. Now he is back in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.


    T8;

    Your interpretation Philippians 2 is based on what you believe the words infer, but do they?

    Here is an interpretation based on the clause “form of a servant” and so inferring “form of God” is speaking of his authority.

    Jesus Anointed = form of God (not form of servant) – form of God = form of servant (not form of God)

    Are these words speaking of authority?
    Has Jesus Anointed ever had the authority of God?

    I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.

    #304827
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00)
    I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable.  I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.


    It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures.  So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.

    #304840
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,03:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,02:00)
    I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable.  I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.


    It not only seems reasonable, Kerwin, but it is supported by MANY other scriptures.  So you must ask yourself what PERSONAL reason you have for determining that a “reasonable interpretation” is actually “flawed”.


    Mike;

    Jesus has never had authority equal to Jehovah.  He has always served Jehovah.  That flawed interpretation may be held by those Trinitarians that hold that Jesus has equal authority to Jehovah.  If you think it through carefully I am sure you will realize that you too hold it to be false.

    The lesson of this passage is having the same mind-set as Christ and so replacing form with mind-set is more reasonable than using authority.  It also goes with the words “thought it not robbery to be equal with God”.  

    Jesus having the  same mindset as God thought it not robbery to be equal to God, emptied himself, taking on the mindset of a servant.  

    A servant has a mindset that is willing to serve and not be equal to God; and therefore meek towards God.  Emptied himself therefore means to become meek.

    That is what I have been brought to understand.  T8 sees it different as he believes that Jesus was the nature of God and then emptied him self of that nature,  taking on the the nature of humanity; not that of angels.  He does this by applying the  words of Hebrews 2:16 to the pattern set forth in Philippians 2:6-7; just as I applied the words of Philippians 2:5.

    It seems T8 believes that Jesus was not originally either a human or an angel but was a Jehovah and then stopped being a Jehovah and became a human being and not an angel.

    #304843
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I have no clue why you're even talking about “authority”.  The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance of a person or thing”.

    Jesus was existing with an outward appearance like that of God when he was a spirit being, but then took on the the outward appearance of a lowly servant by being made into a human being.  Humans are “a little lower than the angels”, right?

    I'm just glad I got the chance to see your own words saying t8's interpretation of Phil 2 was “reasonable”. If you'd let go of your personal WISH for Jesus to have been exactly like you, you'd be able to see that not only is it very reasonable, but aligns with every other scripture in the Bible, while coming into contrast with absolutely none of them.

    #304845
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2012,22:00)
    I hold this interpretation is flawed even though Paul's choice of words make it seem reasonable. I am using it as an example of how false inferences can be drawn from a passage.


    And so all I am really doing is quoting scripture. And thus I am not the one trying to change the meaning.

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