Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #303709
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2012,15:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2012,20:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2012,01:24)
    To all;

    It is written that the covenant of Moses was given through beings from the spirit realms.  The covenant of the Spirit is superior to that.  Jesus, a human, was created a little lower than the beings from heaven and then elevated above them.


    K

    So what his given from Angels his lower than what has been given from a man ????


    T;

    Humanity was given rule of the world while angels serve in the heavenly courts of God.  Jesus originally created as one of those that ruled the earth but has now been appointed as he that rules both the heavenly courts and the world.  

    As you say; God chose to elevate a human being above the angels; for he chose to declare him as his chief son by whom all others children, whether in heaven and on earth, come to him.


    K

    See that's we're you have a problem ,because NO MAN CAN SAVE OR PAY THE PRICE FOR ADAM SIN,

    This is why scriptures says that Christ ,the son of God came down to give up volontarly his live as a form of man so that a perfect and without sin or blamish can be sacrificed ,so you do not believe this ,and yet this is what the entire scriptures is all about..

    So you and I are well into opposed corners.

    #303710
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    Where does it say he took the FORM of man?
    Tradition still rules your mind.

    That is why you always find yourself in the opposite corner

    #303716
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    More speculation from another thread.

    k4c

    “Many Trinitarians teach that Jesus is not Michael but then they go on to say the Jesus is the Angel of the Lord in the OT. I believe this is true but the Angel of the Lord is His title in the OT not His name. The name of the Angle of the Lord in the OT is Michael and Jesus in the NT.

    In reading Jude 1:9 I find Michael in some kind of struggle with the devil over the body of Moses.

    Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    As I read these words I found it interesting that there is no mention of this battle between Michael and the Devil over Moses’ body anywhere in the OT as a matter of fact no one even knows where Yahweh buried Moses' body.

    Deuteronomy 34:5-6 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

    With this in mind I want to look at Jude 1:9 again in light of Moses body. The word (body) can also mean slave, servant or family. This tells me that Michael could have been disputing over Moses servant not Moses’ physical body.

    Where in the bible do we have a dispute over Moses' servant?

    It's found in Zechariah 3:1-4 where the Angel of the Lord is disputing with Satan over Joshua the high priest. The high priest Joshua was of Moses family through Aaron and also of the high priesthood of Aaron making him a servant in the temple. The high priest servant hood came through Moses, which would make Joshua a servant of Moses.

    Lets compare what’s written in Jude to what’s written in Zechariah and you will see that this dispute Jude was referring to was over Moses’ servant and is found in Zechariah. You will also see that the Angel of the Lord and Michael are one in the same.

    Zechariah 3:1-4 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

    In Jude we have Michael disputing with the devil over Moses' servant but in Zechariah 3:1-4 we have the Angel of the Lord disputing with Satan over Moses' servant. The name Michael and the Angel of the Lord are referring to the same person in the same way the name Satan and the Devil are referring to the same person.

    Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan…

    In Jude, Michael says to the devil, “The Lord rebuke you.”

    In Zechariah the Angel of the Lord says to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you.”

    In both these cases we have a dispute over Joshua's filthy garments and how Joshua was one who was plucked out of the fire.

    Now look at Jude 23-25.

    Jude 1:23-25 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    Michael and the Angel of the Lord are one in the same just as Satan and the Devil are one in the same.

    The Angel of the Lord is called Wonderful.

    Judges 13:18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?''

    Jesus shall be called Wonderful.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful…

    Notice, He shall be called Wonderful because He is not yet born.

    Jesus, Michael and the Angel of the Lord are one and the same. Just like Satan, serpent and devil are one and the same. “

    #303725
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,22:42)
    Hi T,
    Where does it say he took the FORM of man?
    Tradition still rules your mind.

    That is why you always find yourself in the opposite corner


    N

    :D truth always find his way in the opposite corner ,first Christ then his disciples,then those who stand for his name ,

    Nick,you know that the son of God his the WORD OF GOD,and that he came down and was made a little lower than the angels and became the sacrifice for our redemption,

    #303726
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    You should not seek to be opposite.
    The gift of life he gave is not accepted by most who know about his sacrifice.

    Eternal life is IN the Son.

    #303735
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,23:10)
    Hi T,
    You should not seek to be opposite.
    The gift of  life he gave is not accepted by most who know about his sacrifice.

    Eternal life is IN the Son.


    N

    with the son ,by being in the faith of the son

    I do not seek to be on the opposite ,it just happen

    #303741
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    Knowing what the Son knows just gives us less excuse for not obeying.

    #303744
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,23:52)
    Hi T,
    Knowing what the Son knows just gives us less excuse for not obeying.


    N

    knowing is not enough,we have to practice,love can not work in a by stander

    #303745
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    Love that saves is specified,
    mt 25.40

    #303748
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2012,23:55)
    Hi T,
    Love that saves is specified,
    mt 25.40


    :)

    #303758
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ,
    Angels are ministering spirits to the saved.[heb1]
    They are not the men they minister to.

    #304138
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Regarding the fact that scripture states that men and heavenly beings are referred as malak/angels/messengers, we put Nick on the Hot Seat to get some answers. It appears to be sorted now, although Nick could come back with some additional facts that we could look at. As it stands now, it has been proven that indeed men too can be called malak/angels/messengers.

    See the Hot Seat discussion that pertains to this.

    #304139
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2012,00:57)
    Hi ,
    Angels are ministering spirits to the saved.[heb1]
    They are not the men they minister to.


    N

    Paul means that those spirits are Angel beings that are attend to the service of those that are saved,or walk in the way of Gods righteousness ,those Angels see more than men can see .

    #304140
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man.Here is some circumstantial evidence.

    • Both are called Wonderful
    • The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
    • Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
    • Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.
    •  

    #304142
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    I'm not satisfied you've proven what you set out to. Let me
    explain what I mean. If the Greek word or the Hebrew equivalent
    is used as an adjective when referring to people, then you have not proved
    your case. Only if it is used as a noun. Looking forward to your further investigation.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #304160
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2012,19:57)
    Hi T8,

    I'm not satisfied you've proven what you set out to. Let me
    explain what I mean. If the Greek word or the Hebrew equivalent
    is used as an adjective when referring to people, then you have not proved
    your case. Only if it is used as a noun. Looking forward to your further investigation.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    ????

    #304168
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ June 26 2012,07:42)
    Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man.

    Here is some circumstantial evidence.

  • Both are called Wonderful
  • The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
  • Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
  • Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.

    Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.


  • T8;

    I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.

    We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5. We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.

    The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.

    #304184
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2012,21:38)

    Quote (t8 @ June 26 2012,07:42)
    Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man.

    Here is some circumstantial evidence.

  • Both are called Wonderful
  • The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
  • Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
  • Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.

    Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.


  • T8;

    I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.

    We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5.  We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.

    The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.


    K

    Quote
    The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.

    1Jn 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
    1Jn 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
    God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
    1Jn 4:17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.

    I do not see what you see and understand ,could you show it to me ???

    #304185
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2012,21:38)

    Quote (t8 @ June 26 2012,07:42)
    Because we have established the fact that men can be called malak.angels/messengers, this does keep open the possibility that the Angel of the LORD is none other than Jesus Christ before he came as a man.

    Here is some circumstantial evidence.

  • Both are called Wonderful
  • The Angel of the LORD was always seen as different and special when he appeared in the company of other angels.
  • Those who saw the Angel of the LORD often described the experience as seeing God. This fits nicely with Jesus being the first born of all creation and the image of the invisible God.
  • Jesus existed in the form of God before he emptied himself and took on the form of man. What is the form of God? Spirit. And thus Jesus could well have been a spirit being before becoming a flesh being like us.

    Also, from what I can tell, THE angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is in the flesh. Yes it mentions AN angel of the LORD, but that would make perfect sense that angels would give messages before, during, and after Jesus coming in the flesh.


  • T8;

    I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.

    We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5.  We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.

    The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.


    K

    Quote
    We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5

    Heb 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
    Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
    “What is man that you are mindful of him,
    the son of man that you care for him?
    Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
    you crowned him with glory and honor
    Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”

    In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.

    so Christ to whom God make all under him his not from the spirit world ??? were is Christ now ??? are you hiding him in your home ???is the throne of God next door to you ???because that s were Christ is sitting on,

    Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
    Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
    Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
    Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
    “You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father’” ?

    Quote
    We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.

    is Paul not ratter talk about Christ preexistence and son ship

    and his status higher than Angels ???

    YOU SHOULD START TO USE THE ” I” INSTEAD OF “WE” BECAUSE I FOR SURE HAVE NEVER BEEN TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURES LIKE YOU.

    #304210
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2012,17:38)
    T8;

    I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.

    We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5. We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.

    The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.


    Kerwin, the bible is full of mysteries.
    And the nature of a mystery is by its very definition, not clear to all.

    Couple that with the fact that I do not say that Jesus is the Angel of the LORD, but could be, as many others also think is possible.

    Jesus existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, died, rose again, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

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