Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“. But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence. Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by Nick.

Viewing 20 posts - 1,501 through 1,520 (of 19,165 total)

←1 2 3…757677…957 958 959 →

Author
Posts

October 9, 2007 at 1:12 am#67881

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,17:17)

Kejonn;

Quote

You miss one vital point. Hundreds of Jews believe upon Yeshua. Why were they different? Which one of them do you think believed that Yeshua existed as something else before he walked amongst them? Those are the Jews I speak of.

Answer from Mr. Steve- But to “as many as received him” he gave the power to become the sons of God. The ones that believed what Jesus taught.

What you know about pagan religions is true. The devil isn't a fool. He is a master of deception. He tries to somewhat mimic or imitate what is true. Therefore, if you see certain commanalities in pagan religions that are true of the Son of God, guess where the devil got the idea?

Only one problem…several of the incarnation stories preceded Yeshua's birth. So the idea of incarnation came about before he was born of Mary.

October 9, 2007 at 1:30 am#67882

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,16:51)

Kejonn;

Hey whatever it is that's bothering you, God will see you through.

Quote

If the Father is pure spirit and God, and Yeshua is begotten before the earth and not created, then he too is God. There is no escaping this. He is not YHWH, but he is God nonetheless.

How is one that is begotten of God at any time God, too.? Go back to the gospel and read everything that Christ said was given to him from his Father. The list goes on and on. Did Jesus say he was God anywhere?
Did anyone else?

Hehe :laugh: , nothing is bothering me. I just find it hard to believe that people who believe in incarnation deny the trinity, unless they are just willing to accept upfront polytheism.

You fail to understand that God is not His name; “God” is the nature of His being. YHWH and El Shaddai were the names He went by in the OT. Therefore, Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature. It is just a common term for us to say “God” and mean the Father, Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddai.

But is Yeshua “God”? Do I need to provide the verses where he was called such?

October 9, 2007 at 7:01 am#67899

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:30)

Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature.

This is true.

However, how do you reconcile that Yeshua is also part of Mary? Or are you among those who believe that Mary was just a surogate? Yeshua is obviously God's Son (God in nature), and he is also Mary's son (Human in nature).

KJ, what is your take on these two natures existing in one person? Are they seperate? Are they fused? Does one dominate? Thanks.

October 9, 2007 at 7:14 am#67900

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 08 2007,20:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 08 2007,20:06)

I would like to understand how your view can be a mystery but the trinity can't?

To WJ.

When I look for verses with both the word “triune/trinity” & “mystery”, nothing comes up.

When I look for verses with “Christ” and “mystery” the following appears:

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

Ephesians 1:9
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

Ephesians 3:4
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Colossians 2:2
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,

Colossians 4:3
And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

The above scriptures is why I say that to some degree Christ is a mystery.

Oh I see. So you can look for verses with both the word “Henotheism” and “mystery” and it is different?

Does any of the verses you quote say he is “a god” that was with the Father and is now manifest or revealed?

October 9, 2007 at 11:02 am#67909

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 09 2007,02:01)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:30)

Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature.

This is true.

KJ, what is your take on these two natures existing in one person? Are they seperate? Are they fused? Does one dominate? Thanks.

Not3,

I'm actually in the investigative mode of “pre-existence” right now. However, I have heavy leanings towards no pre-existence other than prophecy and foreknowledge. When I say that Yeshua can be “God” in nature, I speak of pre-existence, not how he was on earth. On earth, he could be “god” by authority, not nature. That is, as Satan is called “the god of this world” (“ho theos” BTW!), so can Yeshua be called “god of the Christians”. That is, he is given authority. Satan has been allowed to “reign” over this earth since the fall of man, and so will Yeshua reign in the end. Both are given their authority by the Father.

Was not Moses told he would be “god” to Pharaoh? Same exact concept.

What I have been pointing out is that IF one believes in pre-existence and does not believe in the trinity, then there is a dilemma. At this point you either have to then believe he is/was an angel, some other spirit being, or “God” by nature. After all, if he was directly begotten of God before Mary, then tell me, what does that make him?

Of course, most on here who believe in pre-existence but disbelieve in the trinity have been avoiding this like the plague. All they keep saying is they just know he did and the form is not important. I beg to differ because pre-existence and incarnation are doctrines of the trinity.

And finally, I know t8 has spoken of Christ being a mystery, which is an argument that trinitarians will use too. But if you look a little deeper, Paul tells us what he means by this mystery, at least in one instance:

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Also, the mystery of Christ was when and who he would be when he did come, NOT who he was before he was born. That is not a mystery because it was never spoken about in the OT. Not once! That was never a part of any prophecy of the Messiah. As Gene pointed out, prophecy of the Messiah plainly said he was to come from his brethren. There is no speak of any pre-existence.

Its almost as if people want to accept that for thousands of years, YHWH told the children of Israel of a Messiah but at the last moment decided that a human would not be good enough. He then implanted a spirit being into Mary. If you choose to believe this, so be it. It just goes against what YHWH said the Messiah would be, and most Jews would reject anyone this was said of because it is a pagan idea. But you and I know why many Jews rejected him in the 1st century, and it had NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence. That concept developed after many years, as did the trinity.

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 9, 2007 at 11:40 am#67911

kenrch

Participant

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:1 In1722 the beginning746 was2258 the3588 Word,3056 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 with4314 God,2316 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 God.2316

Word3056

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): – account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

According to Strong Word is thought…God's thought.

God's thought became flesh. That is His word came to pass.

Jesus is the result of God's “thought”.

October 9, 2007 at 4:30 pm#67927

Not3in1

Participant

KJ wrote:
On earth, he could be “god” by authority, not nature.
*****************
And yet, Jesus is the Son of God AND the son of man. We cannot forget Mary and her contributions, if indeed she did contribute? I believe this changes everything.

KJ wrote:
After all, if he was directly begotten of God before Mary, then tell me, what does that make him?
*******************
Yes, this is the point exactly, that if Christ preexisted and then somehow was transported into Mary, for him not to be altered by *true conception* the preexistent Christ would have to grow side-by-side with humanity in Mary. In other words, the doctrine of the “dual nature” of Christ. This is how some have solved this apparent confusion (with an equally confusing doctrine – go figure).

But I offer that there should not be any confusion. God chose conception and birth to bring his Son into the world. I believe he did this to show us WHO and WHAT Jesus was/is. It is only when we give new meanings to old words that we draw wrong conclusion. Conception is conception. Jesus is the product of the holy Spirit and Mary. He is a divine man. We will follow him, and by the way, we can participate in the divine nature now! we don't have to wait to follow our brother in resurrection.

KJ wrote:
But you and I know why many Jews rejected him in the 1st century, and it had NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence. That concept developed after many years, as did the trinity.
*****************
Exactly! A good author to read on the history of the church and how certain doctrines came about is John Dwyer. Ironically enough, he is a retired Catholic Professor. However, in his teachings, you wonder how he kept his job! :laugh: I wouldn't believe him to be Catholic if it didn't say so on the back cover. When I researched him, he was the only retired Prof. who didn't have a forwarding email address on the University site – hmmmm? I don't think the church appreciate his non-bias summary. It's the best history on the church I've read to date.

KJ, it sound like you and I are on similiar journey's. I call it my, “Trek for truth” and I've been on this path since 2003 when I learned that the Trinity isn't true. Since then, I've learned about a lot of non-truths that I was taught growing up. I've had to deprogram. Now I'm studying the Sabbath/Feasts/OT. Oh, what a journey. Seek and you will find….. Anyway, I'm enjoying your posts very much. You are helping me along in my study. Keep up the great work, brother. I can see that our Father is just busting at the seams with pride over you.

*sorry my quote thingy didn't work for some reason*

October 9, 2007 at 5:23 pm#67928

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Not3in1……Mandy, if we take a position that the (way) Jesus was concieved via spirit of God made him different then the rest of us, we have to say the same about Adam also because He was also convieved by the spirit of God and is also called a son of God.
My view is that the conception while unique did Not make Jesus a son of God any different than we are. He was son of man and son of God just like we were at his berth. But He became a full son of God when the HOLY SPIRIT infussed Him and the voice came from heaven saying (THIS DAY) I have begotten you. It did not say in some time in the past He was a son.

Some argue that He was at berth the full son of God, If so He couldn't have truly been the second Adam, because inorder for that statement to be made he had to truly be a second Adam.

so i contend he was Just another man just like Adam in every way, and then he recieved the fullness of God's spirit, when it decended an fulled Him Just like it say's.

It so important we see Jesus Just like one of us that our Father can to live in and perform mighty works, Just like He can with Us. Jesus is our full brother not half brother.

He is the First born brother into the family of God the Father, and as a result carries the full authority of the first born of the family of GOD.

What God in Mary was no more then what He did with Adam and Eve, Cyrus, Jeremiah, David, and others. Controlling DNA in some one is no problem for the Creator God.

God the father was showing what (HE) could do through (HIS) work in Jesus and this nwas done through His Spirit. Jesus is God's work not Jesus' work.

Good to see you back in the mix Sis…………gene

October 9, 2007 at 6:43 pm#67930

kejonn

Participant

Hi all,
Many will admit that the idea of pre-existance AND the trinity mainly come from the Gospel of John. Without it, the “evidence” would be very weak indeed. Knowing this, here is a passage from GoJ that refutes the idea of pre-existance:

Joh 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Joh 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
Joh 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
Joh 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Many will say that that several passages have Yeshua speaking in a manner which leads to the idea of pre-existance. However, note the above where almost everything is present tense! In other words, Yeshua was saying that the Father showed him what was needed as he continued on his ministry. There was no preknowledge but the knowledge and power given to Yeshua through the Holy Spirit.

Yeshua did not say ” the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He saw his Father doing”, it is present tense. He did not say “For the Father loves the Son, and showed Him all things that He Himself was doing”, but again, present tense. So the things that Yeshua spoke were things the Father showed him through God's Holy Spirit.

In his mind, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Yeshua could see the day that Abraham was given the promise of a seed through which the nations would be blessed. He could feel the glory of the Father coursing through him, a glory he longed to be part of. And it was a glory he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world because YHWH had predestined the glory for the Messiah from ancient times.

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 9, 2007 at 6:50 pm#67932

Mr. Steve

Participant

Quote

But is Yeshua “God”? Do I need to provide the verses where he was called such?

Kejonn;

Please, show me where Jesus is called God.

Steven

October 9, 2007 at 7:03 pm#67933

Mr. Steve

Participant

Quote

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,17:17)
Kejonn;

Quote

Answer from Mr. Steve- But to “as many as received him” he gave the power to become the sons of God. The ones that believed what Jesus taught.

Only one problem…several of the incarnation stories preceded Yeshua's birth. So the idea of incarnation came about before he was born of Mary.

How is this a problem? Do you think the devil is ignorant?

When Jesus confronted the demons in people, the demons would cry out that they knew who Jesus was – the holy one of God, the Son of God, etc. There's even a case where the devil said what do we have to do with you, have you come to torment us before the time? They knew Christ was the Son of God and they knew that their judgment was coming and that Christ would be their judge. How did they come about this knowledge? They spoke as if it was common knowledge among the demons? None of the demons ever referred to Christ as God.

Steven

October 9, 2007 at 7:15 pm#67934

Mr. Steve

Participant

Quote

Joh 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Joh 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
Joh 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
Joh 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Kejonn;

I don't know what translation you're using but it's irrelevant. If you want to argue against pre-existence, address the scriptures that are on point with the issue of pre-existence.

Such as, What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before.

Before Abraham I am.

He is preferred before me because he was before me.

The glory that I had with thee before the world was.

I came down from heaven.

The second Adam is the Lord from heaven.

Here's the true dilemma. Man always wants to know how. How can this be true? With God all things are possible.

Steven

October 9, 2007 at 7:39 pm#67935

Mr. Steve

Participant

Quote

Kejonn;

When the term “God” is used in the New Testament it is almost universally referring to God the Father. Jesus used the term God many times as well as his Father. No one was mistaken about whom he was referring. For instance, even in the most heated passages with the chief priest and Pharisees, you'll never see them asking Jesus if he was referring to the Almighty, Jehovah, YHWH, El Shadai, etc. A name or title has the meaning which is understood between the parties speaking.
When Jesus said God they all had the same understanding of the meaning of the term God.

Steven

October 9, 2007 at 7:56 pm#67937

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 10 2007,07:15)

Quote

Kejonn;

I don't know what translation you're using but it's irrelevant. If you want to argue against pre-existence, address the scriptures that are on point with the issue of pre-existence.

Such as, What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before.

Before Abraham I am.

He is preferred before me because he was before me.

The glory that I had with thee before the world was.

I came down from heaven.

The second Adam is the Lord from heaven.

Here's the true dilemma. Man always wants to know how. How can this be true? With God all things are possible.

Steven

steve

I agree.

kejonn! And this is one of the biggest stretchs Ive seen yet.

Quote

Surely Yeshua wasnt being this vague?

I am really amazed that you have ever accused Trinitarians of reading into the text what is not there or having glasses on!

This is what Unitarians resort to in order to reconcile scriptures since they cant accept the Trinitarian view.

How could Yeshua share his (the Fathers) Glory before the foundaation of the world if he did not exist?

And how could he ascend up to where he was before if he was never there? What would the purpose of the statements be if his beginning was with Mary?

October 9, 2007 at 8:18 pm#67939

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 09 2007,14:39)

Quote

Kejonn;

Steven

If you'd like, and it would take away from time where you could do it yourself, but I could list all the verses trinitarians use where Yeshua is called God, or where it at least appears he is. Here's a partial list:

John 20:28

1 John 5:20

2 Peter 2:1

Hebrews 1:8

Titus 2:13

Put verses like these together with pre-existance, and there is little much more to say, is there? The fact of the matter is, while it is easy to say that the term “God” implies “God the Father”, there is God and gods. Both the same word: “theos” in Greek and “elohim” in Hebrew. So “God” is not a name.

October 9, 2007 at 8:26 pm#67940

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 09 2007,14:03)

Quote

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,17:17)
Kejonn;

Quote

Answer from Mr. Steve- But to “as many as received him” he gave the power to become the sons of God. The ones that believed what Jesus taught.

Only one problem…several of the incarnation stories preceded Yeshua's birth. So the idea of incarnation came about before he was born of Mary.

How is this a problem? Do you think the devil is ignorant?

Steven

Ah, but that was all present tense. How does that have anything to do with pre-existence? Can you show me where these spirits or Satan ever spoke to him as if they had known him before his birth? Or was it rather that they knew him because they could sense his annointing? They, after all, were spirit creatures and could therefore recognize the annointing of the Holy Spirit. So they knew him as the Messiah, the Son of God, but there is not a single clue that they knew who he was before his humanity.

I see you are trying to take the apologetic route and say that Satan mimiced the incarnation of Yeshua amongst other false religions hundreds of years prior to the Savior's birth? So he purposely palnned this so Jews would not believe in such a pagan doctrine and therefore reject the Messiah?

How would Satan know any of this? He is not omnipotent. He knew there would be a Messiah for God's people, but are you supposing that he knew before hand that this Messiah would be an incarnation of the Son of God? That's a stretch.

October 9, 2007 at 9:06 pm#67941

kejonn

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2007,14:56)

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 10 2007,07:15)

Quote

Kejonn;

I don't know what translation you're using but it's irrelevant. If you want to argue against pre-existence, address the scriptures that are on point with the issue of pre-existence.

Such as, What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before.

Before Abraham I am.

He is preferred before me because he was before me.

The glory that I had with thee before the world was.

I came down from heaven.

The second Adam is the Lord from heaven.

Here's the true dilemma. Man always wants to know how. How can this be true? With God all things are possible.

Steven

steve

I agree.

kejonn! And this is one of the biggest stretchs Ive seen yet.

Quote

Surely Yeshua wasnt being this vague?

I am really amazed that you have ever accused Trinitarians of reading into the text what is not there or having glasses on!

This is what Unitarians resort to in order to reconcile scriptures since they cant accept the Trinitarian view.

How could Yeshua share his (the Fathers) Glory before the foundaation of the world if he did not exist?

And how could he ascend up to where he was before if he was never there? What would the purpose of the statements be if his beginning was with Mary?

You folks seem to forget one vital thing here: Yeshua was an avid student and teacher of the Law. He knew the Tanakh frontwards and back. Don't you know he read the same scripture as we have where Abraham is promised that his seed will bless the nations? That is why he can boldly say that Abraham saw his day and rejoiced, because he could read the words written thousands of years in the past. And he can also state that before Abraham was born, he was because of this verse:

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

And here is where Abraham saw his day:

Gen 22:17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

So with this information, it was quite easy to say the things he said without a pre-existance. All he had to do was read all about himself.

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it w
as written,
Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Luk 4:19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
Luk 4:20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Luk 18:31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.

Finally, and he can ascend to where he was before because his birth is from on high. The Holy Spirit descended upon Mary so that she would conceive. Where does the Holy Spirit come from?

October 9, 2007 at 9:43 pm#67944

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,23:02)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 09 2007,02:01)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:30)

Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature.

This is true.

KJ, what is your take on these two natures existing in one person? Are they seperate? Are they fused? Does one dominate? Thanks.

Not3,

Was not Moses told he would be “god” to Pharaoh? Same exact concept.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

LG&LP,
Kevin

Hi kejonn.

The answer in this case would be that he preexisted as a divine being. He humbled and emptied himself and came in the flesh.

i.e., divine nature then partook of human nature.

It is written that the Word was God/divine and the Word became flesh.

If it is a plan or if Yeshua is the Word, then they both at least make sense.

I can't see how Yeshua being divine is ruled out on this point.

As for your argument that Yeshua was created as the Messiah like any other man, well if Adam hadn't sinned, then we can only assume from this point of view that Yeshua wouldn't exist as he wouldn't have had a job and no reason to exist.

This also leads us to wonder about why would God create all things through Christ and for him, if God created Adam first. What would have happened if Adam hadn't of sinned? Then how and why would Yeshua come to be? Unless of course God made Adam to sin and so the second one would take over. I find that hard to accept.

October 9, 2007 at 9:46 pm#67945

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2007,19:14)