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Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

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  • June 22, 2010 at 6:33 pm#199187
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (Arnold @ June 23 2010,04:46)
    Martian, again you give no Scripture.  We all know that Christ came in the flesh and died for us…..Being with His Father before He came to earth, means only that He knew were He came from.  That does not take away from how He was tempted like us.  He hurt like us, flesh will…… But to then say that He had to be just a man, He is God's Son…. that makes Him different……Why do you want to ignore these Scriptures that makes no sense to me……When you say the mission, what is His Mission?  Is it not that He was tested and He was, and then died for us….. In Philippians 2:6 who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.
    verse 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a Servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
    It says He came. where did He come from.  John 6:38 tells us so
    :”For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me…”I just read some of your last post to me, how do you know what kind of relationship I have with Christ.  Are you not jumping to conclusions.  Just because I believe that He was with the Father in Heaven before He became a man……come on be for real….stop ignoring Scriptures….. to many to just ignore them……
    I believe Jesus….Also what does that have to do with the Fathers character…. What is your problem, man    You know you are grasping for nonsense……Irene


    Why did you not answer the questions. I fear you are again exercising your love of a book over your love of the nature of God and his plan.

    Do I really need to post scriptures like you are a child to ascertain if you believe the plan of God as I have described?

    June 22, 2010 at 6:36 pm#199188
    martian
    Participant

    Here this is for all that need scriptural proof of the example of Christ and his humanity.
    Here are just a few of the scriptures that clearly show Jesus is a complete human.

    Romans 1/3
    concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, (here we see his linage as being human., on his mother’s side from the line of David, and according to the flesh, his nature being in keeping with the rest of natural man.)

    Romans 9 Verse 3
    For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, ( Paul explains that his brethren are his kinsmen because they come according to the flesh as he does. (flesh= coming in the natural physical realm. His nature and makeup was human. The building blocks that came together at his conception were human)

    4
    who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
    5
    whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (Here Jesus is described as coming from the fathers according to the flesh. In other words of the same makeup and nature that Paul clarified earlier.)

    Hebrews 2
    9
    But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
    10
    For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
    11
    For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
    12
    saying,
    “I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
    IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”
    13
    And again,
    “I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM “
    And again,
    “BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.”
    14
    Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
    15
    and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
    16
    For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
    17
    Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

    Notice the very specific things said in this section of scripture —
    Verse 9 – Jesus called son of man. Jesus made lower then the angels. (this does not say he was lowered from a higher position, but that his make up was that of being lower then the angels) Crowned with glory and honor because of his suffering and tasted death. A God does not need to be crowned with glory. A God cannot suffer and die. All of these apply to humanity not a God. Scripture states very clearly that it was the man’s death on the cross and not a God’s.
    Romans 5:15
    But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (Notice scripture makes a point to show Jesus as a man)
    Verse 10 – He was perfected by what he suffered. Jesus was born sinless and immature like all other men and like all other men needed to be perfected through suffering. His work brings MANY sons to glory – US -!
    Luke 2:52 “And Jesus grew both in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with God.” (Obviously he was not born a perfected God/man.)
    Verse 11 – They come from the same Father and for this reason Jesus calls them (humanity) brethren. (All humanity are sons of one God including Jesus.)
    Verse 12 and 13 – Jesus again calls us his brethren
    Verse 14 – Jesus shares the same attributes of flesh and blood. Jesus fulfills prophecy of Eve’s seed. Genesis 3:15
    And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
    Verse 15 He is fulfilling his calling of being an example. His death is an example because he is completely human.
    Verse 16 – Again pointing to his linage as a descendent of Abraham. His ancestors were human. A God does not need heed help from another person of God, but a human, decended from Abraham does need it.
    Verse 17 – Made like his brethren in ALL THINGS. Not in everything except his nature, but all things! Everything about Jesus was like his brethren. No qualifications or added concepts. Since it is clear that Jesus is in the line of David through Mary, Her DNA must have been present. Jesus calls her mother indicating that She was the source, of the egg, 1/2 of his makeup.
    We know that God is His father. In order to not break this previous verse that he was like his brethren in EVERY WAY God must have created a human sperm to fertilize Mary’s egg.
    Prophecy foretold of Jesus being like his brethren –
    Deut 18/15 (Moses is speaking of Jesus )
    The LORD (Yahweh) your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
    Verse 18 – 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
    Verse 19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
    (Jesus is a prophet, a human calling. This clearly explains how he could speak first person from the Father) (John 8/40, Acts 7/37, Mat 13/57)

    Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan for man —

    Jesus was the example for humanity having the fullness of God dwelling in them and becoming like Christ to the full extant.
    Christ —
    Colossians 1:19
    For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
    Colossians 2:9
    For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
    The rest of humanity —
    Ephesians 3:19
    and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
    Ephesians 4:13
    until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (How do we measure up to the full stature of Christ? By becoming mature men. This comparison is invalid unless Christ is a man.)

    Jesus is called Emanuael which means God is with us. Truthfully God is with us in the person of the Human Jesus Christ. He is the perfect revealing of the Father in a Human. He is one with his Father who is a spirit. He is Spirit filled to the fullest extant. Even today, men who have good and deep relationship with God reveal God to those around them by their actions and life. From their very being comes a revelation of the goodness of the God that dwells in them. To what ever extant they reveal God to that same extant do we have God with us in their presence.
    Jesus is called the “Everlasting Father” because the Father (Yahweh) is revealed in him. Even as Moses bowed before the burning bush and called it God. The bush was not God but Moses recognised a physical revealing of Yahweh in the natural realm residing within the bush. So thomas could look at Jesus and call Him Lord (master in authority) and God (Yahweh indwelling and being revealed in the man Jesus)

    Jesus is again compared to Adam
    Gen 3-

    4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!

    5″For God knows that in the day you
    eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Adam and Eve seeing the fruit was good to eat, set out to meet their own needs. They had freedom to choose and chose to be as God’s deciding for themselves what was right and wrong for them. They chose to make themselves equal with God! They partook of the knowledge of good and evil.
    1 Corinthians 15:20
    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
    1 Corinthians 15:23
    But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

    Again Christ resurrection is an example and a first fruit because of his humanity. The first to complete God’s plan for man.

    1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human. Not a God that became a man yet remained a God.)
    Heb 2/17
    Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

    Hebrews 4/15
    For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

    John 14/9 and 10
    Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
    10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.

    Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit (breath) and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

    Acts 2/36
    Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
    For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
    (Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)

    John 12:44 thru 46
    44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

    John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
    “I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)

    John 14:28 –
    “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
    (Co-equal?)

    1 Cor. 3:23
    – “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
    (Co-equal?)

    1 Cor. 11:3 –
    “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
    (Co-equal?)

    Eph 1:3 –
    “Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
    (Co-equal?)

    Eph 1:17
    – “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
    (Co-equal?)

    Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    There is one thrown in heaven. On that thrown sits the human Jesus Christ. When we see him we will see the glory of the Father revealed in the face of Jesus.

    June 22, 2010 at 6:37 pm#199189
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,13:15)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,04:36)

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,18:16)
    WJ,

    You are a Satan… You desire is try and cause me to sin.

    You are not a good person.

    You have fallen from an ignorant false believer, a trinitarian, down even more, to that of outright opposer.

    You have repeatedly failed against me with your false belief, so much so that your ownly resort is to try and get me to trip myself up.

    Why, WJ?  If what you believe is true, if you are of God, if God is with you, if you speak truth, WJ, why does nothing prevail with you? Why does most of what you say prove to be false and yet for over x years you have been in this forum and I hear things that you do outside the forum which supposedly putss you in a higher position, one of a leader, a shepherd, a teacher…but you are blind…a blind leader, shepherd and an ignorant teacher… Not very good qualifications, eh?

    WJ, what have you learnt over the years…'spiritually'?nothing… Why?….because Trinity only teaches you how to lie, how to cover up for it's deceit.

    It is using you, and making you 'successful' for it's own purpose, like the 'Ring' in 'Lord of the Rings'…
    WJ, take it off, and you will see the plain Wor[l]d of God, truth.
    Take it off, WJ, and free yourself from its power and rule over you.

    WJ, pray to Go Almighty, through the spirit man, Jesus Christ, the one and only one who is the mediator between God Almighty and Mankind, having known firsthand the weakness of flesh and also the power of spirit, and therefore can empathise with man and yet be authorative in spirit.


    JA

    The ad hominem expert!

    If Jesus is called “Mighty God” then is he your “Mighty God”?

    Can you call him “Mighty God”?

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “HIS NAME SHAL BE CALLED” Wonderful, Counsellor, “The MIGHTY GOD“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

    You said satan is a “Mighty God”!

    Does that mean to you that Jesus is “a god” in the sense satan is “a god”?

    Thats what your brother Mike says!

    Please stop with the babyish diatribe!

    And answer the questions if you can.

    You are acting like the “Pharasees and the Saducees” in there response to Jesus.

    Sad-U-See! :)

    WJ


    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    Martian

    Sure it means character, which is exactly the point.

    No other in scriptures has the exact character as “Mighty God” other than YHWH, yet Jesus is given that name, the same “name” (Character) as “YHWH” in Isa 10:21, Jer 32:17 and Hab 1:12

    Is this a mistake? Did Isaiah have a lapse of memory to ascribe the same “Name” to Jesus and then to YHWH!

    No other is called “Mighty God” right?

    Do you call him “Mighty God”?

    Is he your “Mighty God”?

    WJ

    June 22, 2010 at 6:40 pm#199190
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    BUMPED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE:

    Martian said:

    Quote
    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

    the Roo

    June 22, 2010 at 6:57 pm#199192
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:40)
    BUMPED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE:

    Martian said:

    Quote
    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

    the Roo


    Correction:

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable in substance” (Heb. 1:3). The conclusion is the same. Character cannot be separated from essence or substance.

    the Roo

    June 22, 2010 at 7:02 pm#199193
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:57)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:40)
    BUMPED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE:

    Martian said:

    Quote
    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

    the Roo


    Correction:

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable substance” (Heb. 1:3). The conclusion is the same. Character cannot be separated from essence or substance.

    the Roo


    Are you lost are something? We are speaking of the Hebrew word shem in Isa 9:6 No one even mentioned the Greek.

    June 22, 2010 at 7:07 pm#199195
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,05:37)

    Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,13:15)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,04:36)

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,18:16)
    WJ,

    You are a Satan… You desire is try and cause me to sin.

    You are not a good person.

    You have fallen from an ignorant false believer, a trinitarian, down even more, to that of outright opposer.

    You have repeatedly failed against me with your false belief, so much so that your ownly resort is to try and get me to trip myself up.

    Why, WJ?  If what you believe is true, if you are of God, if God is with you, if you speak truth, WJ, why does nothing prevail with you? Why does most of what you say prove to be false and yet for over x years you have been in this forum and I hear things that you do outside the forum which supposedly putss you in a higher position, one of a leader, a shepherd, a teacher…but you are blind…a blind leader, shepherd and an ignorant teacher… Not very good qualifications, eh?

    WJ, what have you learnt over the years…'spiritually'?nothing… Why?….because Trinity only teaches you how to lie, how to cover up for it's deceit.

    It is using you, and making you 'successful' for it's own purpose, like the 'Ring' in 'Lord of the Rings'…
    WJ, take it off, and you will see the plain Wor[l]d of God, truth.
    Take it off, WJ, and free yourself from its power and rule over you.

    WJ, pray to Go Almighty, through the spirit man, Jesus Christ, the one and only one who is the mediator between God Almighty and Mankind, having known firsthand the weakness of flesh and also the power of spirit, and therefore can empathise with man and yet be authorative in spirit.


    JA

    The ad hominem expert!

    If Jesus is called “Mighty God” then is he your “Mighty God”?

    Can you call him “Mighty God”?

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “HIS NAME SHAL BE CALLED” Wonderful, Counsellor, “The MIGHTY GOD“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

    You said satan is a “Mighty God”!

    Does that mean to you that Jesus is “a god” in the sense satan is “a god”?

    Thats what your brother Mike says!

    Please stop with the babyish diatribe!

    And answer the questions if you can.

    You are acting like the “Pharasees and the Saducees” in there response to Jesus.

    Sad-U-See! :)

    WJ


    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    Martian

    Sure it means character, which is exactly the point.

    No other in scriptures has the exact character as “Mighty God” other than YHWH, yet Jesus is given that name, the same “name” (Character) as “YHWH” in Isa 10:21, Jer 32:17 and Hab 1:12

    Is this a mistake? Did Isaiah have a lapse of memory to ascribe the same “Name” to Jesus and then to YHWH!

    No other is called “Mighty God” right?

    Do you call him “Mighty God”?

    Is he your “Mighty God”?

    WJ


    What is your point. Are you saying that because Jesus immulated God's character perfectly that he is automatically Deity? Again with your downgrading of mankind. Can a man not have perfect character of God?
    That is the whole point of the creation for God to make unto himself sons and daughters that have his character. Christ was the firstfruits of that plan. We are to follow in like manner.

    June 22, 2010 at 7:08 pm#199196
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ June 23 2010,06:02)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:57)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:40)
    BUMPED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE:

    Martian said:

    Quote
    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

    the Roo


    Correction:

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable substance” (Heb. 1:3). The conclusion is the same. Character cannot be separated from essence or substance.

    the Roo


    Are you lost are something? We are speaking of the Hebrew word shem in Isa 9:6  No one even mentioned the Greek.


    Maybe I am lost. I thought you were saying that name is character which does not imply identity.

    the Roo

    June 22, 2010 at 7:09 pm#199197
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,05:37)

    Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,13:15)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,04:36)

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,18:16)
    WJ,

    You are a Satan… You desire is try and cause me to sin.

    You are not a good person.

    You have fallen from an ignorant false believer, a trinitarian, down even more, to that of outright opposer.

    You have repeatedly failed against me with your false belief, so much so that your ownly resort is to try and get me to trip myself up.

    Why, WJ?  If what you believe is true, if you are of God, if God is with you, if you speak truth, WJ, why does nothing prevail with you? Why does most of what you say prove to be false and yet for over x years you have been in this forum and I hear things that you do outside the forum which supposedly putss you in a higher position, one of a leader, a shepherd, a teacher…but you are blind…a blind leader, shepherd and an ignorant teacher… Not very good qualifications, eh?

    WJ, what have you learnt over the years…'spiritually'?nothing… Why?….because Trinity only teaches you how to lie, how to cover up for it's deceit.

    It is using you, and making you 'successful' for it's own purpose, like the 'Ring' in 'Lord of the Rings'…
    WJ, take it off, and you will see the plain Wor[l]d of God, truth.
    Take it off, WJ, and free yourself from its power and rule over you.

    WJ, pray to Go Almighty, through the spirit man, Jesus Christ, the one and only one who is the mediator between God Almighty and Mankind, having known firsthand the weakness of flesh and also the power of spirit, and therefore can empathise with man and yet be authorative in spirit.


    JA

    The ad hominem expert!

    If Jesus is called “Mighty God” then is he your “Mighty God”?

    Can you call him “Mighty God”?

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “HIS NAME SHAL BE CALLED” Wonderful, Counsellor, “The MIGHTY GOD“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

    You said satan is a “Mighty God”!

    Does that mean to you that Jesus is “a god” in the sense satan is “a god”?

    Thats what your brother Mike says!

    Please stop with the babyish diatribe!

    And answer the questions if you can.

    You are acting like the “Pharasees and the Saducees” in there response to Jesus.

    Sad-U-See! :)

    WJ


    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    Martian

    Sure it means character, which is exactly the point.

    No other in scriptures has the exact character as “Mighty God” other than YHWH, yet Jesus is given that name, the same “name” (Character) as “YHWH” in Isa 10:21, Jer 32:17 and Hab 1:12

    Is this a mistake? Did Isaiah have a lapse of memory to ascribe the same “Name” to Jesus and then to YHWH!

    No other is called “Mighty God” right?

    Do you call him “Mighty God”?

    Is he your “Mighty God”?

    WJ


    BTW Character is not a name but a disscription of the way one lives and the moral code one follows.

    June 22, 2010 at 7:28 pm#199209
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,14:07)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,05:37)

    Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,13:15)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,04:36)

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,18:16)
    WJ,

    You are a Satan… You desire is try and cause me to sin.

    You are not a good person.

    You have fallen from an ignorant false believer, a trinitarian, down even more, to that of outright opposer.

    You have repeatedly failed against me with your false belief, so much so that your ownly resort is to try and get me to trip myself up.

    Why, WJ?  If what you believe is true, if you are of God, if God is with you, if you speak truth, WJ, why does nothing prevail with you? Why does most of what you say prove to be false and yet for over x years you have been in this forum and I hear things that you do outside the forum which supposedly putss you in a higher position, one of a leader, a shepherd, a teacher…but you are blind…a blind leader, shepherd and an ignorant teacher… Not very good qualifications, eh?

    WJ, what have you learnt over the years…'spiritually'?nothing… Why?….because Trinity only teaches you how to lie, how to cover up for it's deceit.

    It is using you, and making you 'successful' for it's own purpose, like the 'Ring' in 'Lord of the Rings'…
    WJ, take it off, and you will see the plain Wor[l]d of God, truth.
    Take it off, WJ, and free yourself from its power and rule over you.

    WJ, pray to Go Almighty, through the spirit man, Jesus Christ, the one and only one who is the mediator between God Almighty and Mankind, having known firsthand the weakness of flesh and also the power of spirit, and therefore can empathise with man and yet be authorative in spirit.


    JA

    The ad hominem expert!

    If Jesus is called “Mighty God” then is he your “Mighty God”?

    Can you call him “Mighty God”?

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “HIS NAME SHAL BE CALLED” Wonderful, Counsellor, “The MIGHTY GOD“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

    You said satan is a “Mighty God”!

    Does that mean to you that Jesus is “a god” in the sense satan is “a god”?

    Thats what your brother Mike says!

    Please stop with the babyish diatribe!

    And answer the questions if you can.

    You are acting like the “Pharasees and the Saducees” in there response to Jesus.

    Sad-U-See! :)

    WJ


    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    Martian

    Sure it means character, which is exactly the point.

    No other in scriptures has the exact character as “Mighty God” other than YHWH, yet Jesus is given that name, the same “name” (Character) as “YHWH” in Isa 10:21, Jer 32:17 and Hab 1:12

    Is this a mistake? Did Isaiah have a lapse of memory to ascribe the same “Name” to Jesus and then to YHWH!

    No other is called “Mighty God” right?

    Do you call him “Mighty God”?

    Is he your “Mighty God”?

    WJ


    What is your point. Are you saying that because Jesus immulated God's character perfectly that he is automatically Deity?   Again with your downgrading of mankind. Can a man not have perfect character of God?
    That is the whole point of the creation for God to make unto himself sons and daughters that have his character. Christ was the firstfruits of that plan. We are to follow in like manner.


    Martian

    You just made my point! Isaiah makes no difference in the “Name” Mighty God” in refering to Jesus or YHWH!

    Again, do you follow Isaiahs words in calling Jesus “Mighty God”?

    Is Jesus your “Mighty God”?

    Is he your Prince of Peace?

    Is he your “Wonderful Counselor”?

    Is he your “Eternal Father”?

    WJ

    June 22, 2010 at 7:28 pm#199210
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,06:08)

    Quote (martian @ June 23 2010,06:02)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:57)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:40)
    BUMPED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE:

    Martian said:

    Quote
    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

    the Roo


    Correction:

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable substance” (Heb. 1:3). The conclusion is the same. Character cannot be separated from essence or substance.

    the Roo


    Are you lost are something? We are speaking of the Hebrew word shem in Isa 9:6  No one even mentioned the Greek.


    Maybe I am lost. I thought you were saying that name is character which does not imply identity.

    the Roo


    I was speaking of the Hebee and not the Greek but since you broached the subject, I would like to know your reference for saying that the Greek work Carakter means substance or essence.
    The Lexicons I have say differently.
    The Greek work carakter is used only once in scripture

    Hebrews 1:9
    and He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    The word means
    1.the instrument used for engraving or carving
    2.the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
    a.a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:
    3.or stamped on, an impression
    the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

    A reproduction is not the original. An expression is not the original. A likeness is not the original.

    The root comes from the word charasso which means to sharper to a point. It is akin to the root word, Grapho which means
    4.o write, with reference to the form of the letters
    a.to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material
    5.to write, with reference to the contents of the writing
    a.to express in written characters
    b.to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record
    c.used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT)
    d.to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions
    6.to fill with writing
    to draw up in writing, compose
    In other words an expression of the intents/plan/motives/thoughts of the author.

    June 22, 2010 at 7:36 pm#199214
    JustAskin
    Participant

    WJ,

    Quote
    Opinions are far and wide
    Often its just diatribe
    The scoffer puts forth his lie
    Often its just diatribe
    The blind and those on his side
    Often pukes more diatribe
    The lies cannot abide
    For the truth destroys the diatribe

    This is wonderful… so you understand …good…good… so you have no excuse. for it is said “A man who walks in ignorance can be called innocent. But once having learnt the truth and falls away from it that one is no longer innocent even if he remain ignorant.”

    June 22, 2010 at 7:53 pm#199217
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ June 23 2010,06:28)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,06:08)

    Quote (martian @ June 23 2010,06:02)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:57)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:40)
    BUMPED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE:

    Martian said:

    Quote
    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

    the Roo


    Correction:

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable substance” (Heb. 1:3). The conclusion is the same. Character cannot be separated from essence or substance.

    the Roo


    Are you lost are something? We are speaking of the Hebrew word shem in Isa 9:6  No one even mentioned the Greek.


    Maybe I am lost. I thought you were saying that name is character which does not imply identity.

    the Roo


    I was speaking of the Hebee and not the Greek but since you broached the subject, I would like to know your reference for saying that the Greek work Carakter means substance or essence.
    The Lexicons I have say differently.
    The Greek work carakter is used only once in scripture

    Hebrews 1:9
    and He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    The word means
    1.the instrument used for engraving or carving
    2.the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
    a.a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:
    3.or stamped on, an impression
    the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

    A reproduction is not the original. An expression is not the original. A likeness is not the original.

    The root comes from the word charasso which means to sharper to a point. It is akin to the root word, Grapho which means
    4.o write, with reference to the form of the letters
    a.to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material
    5.to write, with reference to the contents of the writing
    a.to express in written characters
    b.to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record
    c.used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT)
    d.to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions
    6.to fill with writing
    to draw up in writing, compose
    In other words an expression of the intents/plan/motives/thoughts of the author.


    Martian,

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable resemblance.” Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the “indistinguishable representation of God's substance.”

    The word is used in the LXX translation of Leviticus 13:28:

    “And if the glossy spot continues unchanged and makes no advance in the skin, and is rather INDISTINCT, it is the mark of the inflammation….”

    Jesus is the “indistinguishable representation” of God's substance. Therefore, the word “charakter” as it refers to Jesus in Hebrews has nothing to do with His emmulating the character of God. It means that He is of the same substance as God as the word “indistinct” dictates.

    Yet you Arians say that He is only of like substance, that is, He is of close resemblance.  But the Greek “charakter” does not mean “like” or “close.” It means “indistinct resemblance.”

    the Roo

    June 22, 2010 at 8:07 pm#199218
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 22 2010,14:36)
    WJ,

    Quote
    Opinions are far and wide
    Often its just diatribe
    The scoffer puts forth his lie
    Often its just diatribe
    The blind and those on his side
    Often pukes more diatribe
    The lies cannot abide
    For the truth destroys the diatribe

    This is wonderful… so you understand …good…good… so you have no excuse. for it is said “A man who walks in ignorance can be called innocent. But once having learnt the truth and falls away from it that one is no longer innocent even if he remain ignorant.”


    JA

    You are living up to your reputation with more ad hominems.

    I thought that “moderators” would be above that and be more Christ like and at least address the issues being discussed with some substance? ???

    WJ

    June 22, 2010 at 8:08 pm#199219
    theodorej
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,02:58)
    WJ,
    After three years of debate with you I have only a few more things to say.
    Your method of interpretation is so corrupt that it buggers the imagination. A few days ago we debated the merits of Acts 20:28 and you agreed that the interpretation could go your or my way and yet just a few posts later you are listing it as definitive proof. You did the same thing with Psalms 49. This is so dishonest as to not even warrant discussion. Your methods are more like a shyster used car dealer then a teacher of God’s word.

    The most damaging aspect of your whole diatribe are the results of your conclusions.
    You once said of me that I was rejecting the traditional teaching of the church and yet here you are trying to prove that God has a physical body and blood. The belief that YHWH is a spirit without a corporeal body is one of the basic beliefs of the Judeo Christian world. This has nothing to do with how powerful God is. A being’s power will not be exercised on it’s own. It must be exercised on the basis of decisions made within the character of that being. God’s character is absolute and unchanging, therefore his power could NEVER be exercised to usurp or change his own nature or character. He could never exist or recreate himself with character of less moral purity then himself. He cannot be tempted (which requires the ability to give into temptation) in all ways like mankind.
    Secondly – You doctrine undermines the very hope that the mission of Christ was to foster.
    Christ as a God infects the perfect example for humanity with great gaps of doubt. Your doctrine puts the question there for Satan to exploit in the minds of the saints. “Did Christ do the things he accomplished through his humanity or through his deity?” What part of Christ are we supposed to follow in like manner? Is there a secret guide in scripture that says Christ did this as a man and this as a God? Not to mention that a preexistent Christ opens all kinds of questions. What happened to all the experiences and memories of the pre-incarnate Christ? Did his brain get whipped in some sort of sci-fi brain meld? Is God a Vulcan?
    In fact if Jesus is God and that gave him clear advantage over us in what he accomplished on Earth then how are we supposed to be like him?
    I know you will come up with some mystical excuse from Phil 4 or the like to say that God gave up his divinity, but that causes another great contradiction with the basic tenants of Christianity. Can God stop being God?
    The unchagability of the moral character and “physical” attributes of God are a cornerstone of the Christian faith.  Christ was tempted in all ways like other men.  To be tempted there must be the possibility to sin. Otherwise there is no temptation. To be tempted one must be capable of making a decision between right and wrong. God’s moral character will not allow him to make that choice. There can be no temptation for God and no possibility to sin. If Christ is God then all the scriptures that claim Christ was tempted are lies.
    Again if Christ is not tempted like other men then how are we to draw hope that we can also overcome temptation and sin? I can hear the devil whispering in the ears of man now. “You can’t really over come this problem. After all Christ had to be a God to do it.”
    The same is true for the greatest hope of all, the resurrection. Satan would say “When has a man ever been resurrected? The example of Christ is no example because he is a God.”
    Is Christ called the Savior? Sure, what’s your point?  Christ worked with God for the salvation of mankind. The ability to do the savior’s work was given Christ with the mantle of messiah. The power to save souls came from YHWH and was administered by Christ as part of his mission. This also fits in the exact way in which the Hebrews thought. A human acting or functioning as a savior was called such. Such were all the men of the OT that acted as saviors to the people of Israel.

    Your doctrines dismantle the very rocks and foundations that the Christian hopes are based upon.
    Doctrine has one purpose and it is not to give us points of intellectual debate. It is to be a help in furthering our progress in our journey with God. Teaching should function and do something to help us become more like Christ and complete God’s plan for us. Teaching should not make Christ more of an enigma or lessen his example for us. Doctrine should never bring into doubt the moral character of God.
    Your arrogance shows through clearly in your belief that it takes a God to die for your sins.
    Firstly it is up to God and not you what he will accept as a proper blood sacrifice.
    Secondly from a love aspect it was much harder for God to sacrifice his only begotten son then it would be to sacrifice himself. (As if God could sacrifice himself)
    This was the perfect son. The one he started out to create in the first place with Adam. A son that always did what pleased his father and did what his father asked. This son was the perfect sacrifice and the perfect example. He was not some mystical dual-natured God/man or deity that we cannot relate to. He is a human being that completed the plan of God for all humanity. He purchased us back by supplying the ransom that God would accept.
    It makes no difference what you think you can prove from scripture. There are certain non-changing truths taught from scripture that are absolutely necessary beliefs for a person to be called Christian. Among them are the absolute moral character of God, Christ as our example, Christ as fulfilling the mantle of Messiah with the help of His father and the death, resurrection and eternal life of Christ as the first and greatest hope for mankind. Certainly there are scripture that would seem to go against these basic truths, however that does not diminish their truth, it only means we do not yet know the real meaning of these verses. I have an many occasions shown that deeper study of these verses often prove them to follow these basic truths.
    Your doctrines undermine and bring doubt upon all of these basic truths. Teach them if your want but stop calling them Christian doctrines because they are absolutely not of God.
    I heard someone on here say you were claiming pastor status? Is that true? Then I should get off here and begin praying for the unlucky souls that you will teach. They will need much deprogramming to really walk with God.
    Shame on you WJ for continuing to stubbornly promote doctrines that diminish the moral fiber of YHWH and destroys hope in the hearts of Christians.


    Greetings Martian…. Imust say that was a scathing rebuke you just demonstrated….but as you know this is not a perfect world and needless to say we all fall short…My feeling is if during the course of discussion we find ourselves in error or, we are found in error, yourself and myself, as well as any other participant we are obliged to correct the error whether it be doctrinal,Biblical or in some cases a personal opinion…To call someone a liar and to deminish any contrbution they might have to this forum or even as a pastor of a church does not seem fitting of someone whose interests lies in knowing how to live in spirit and truth…correct me if Iam wrong….

    June 22, 2010 at 8:32 pm#199220
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,06:53)

    Quote (martian @ June 23 2010,06:28)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,06:08)

    Quote (martian @ June 23 2010,06:02)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:57)

    Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,05:40)
    BUMPED FROM PREVIOUS PAGE:

    Martian said:

    Quote
    What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?


    And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

    the Roo


    Correction:

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable substance” (Heb. 1:3). The conclusion is the same. Character cannot be separated from essence or substance.

    the Roo


    Are you lost are something? We are speaking of the Hebrew word shem in Isa 9:6  No one even mentioned the Greek.


    Maybe I am lost. I thought you were saying that name is character which does not imply identity.

    the Roo


    I was speaking of the Hebee and not the Greek but since you broached the subject, I would like to know your reference for saying that the Greek work Carakter means substance or essence.
    The Lexicons I have say differently.
    The Greek work carakter is used only once in scripture

    Hebrews 1:9
    and He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    The word means
    1.the instrument used for engraving or carving
    2.the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
    a.a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:
    3.or stamped on, an impression
    the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

    A reproduction is not the original. An expression is not the original. A likeness is not the original.

    The root comes from the word charasso which means to sharper to a point. It is akin to the root word, Grapho which means
    4.o write, with reference to the form of the letters
    a.to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material
    5.to write, with reference to the contents of the writing
    a.to express in written characters
    b.to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record
    c.used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT)
    d.to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions
    6.to fill with writing
    to draw up in writing, compose
    In other words an expression of the intents/plan/motives/thoughts of the author.


    Martian,

    The Greek “charakter” means “indistinguishable resemblance.” Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the “indistinguishable representation of God's substance.”

    The word is used in the LXX translation of Leviticus 13:28:

    “And if the glossy spot continues unchanged and makes no advance in the skin, and is rather INDISTINCT, it is the mark of the inflammation….”

    Jesus is the “indistinguishable representation” of God's substance. Therefore, the word “charakter” as it refers to Jesus in Hebrews has nothing to do with His emmulating the character of God. It means that He is of the same substance as God as the word “indistinct” dictates.

    Yet you Arians say that He is only of like substance, that is, He is of close resemblance.  But the Greek “charakter” does not mean “like” or “close.” It means “indistinct resemblance.”

    the Roo


    So you are saying that someone that represents God has to be God?
    Earth to Roo. Come home we miss you.

    June 22, 2010 at 8:34 pm#199221
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (theodorej @ June 23 2010,07:08)

    Quote (martian @ June 20 2010,02:58)
    WJ,
    After three years of debate with you I have only a few more things to say.
    Your method of interpretation is so corrupt that it buggers the imagination. A few days ago we debated the merits of Acts 20:28 and you agreed that the interpretation could go your or my way and yet just a few posts later you are listing it as definitive proof. You did the same thing with Psalms 49. This is so dishonest as to not even warrant discussion. Your methods are more like a shyster used car dealer then a teacher of God’s word.

    The most damaging aspect of your whole diatribe are the results of your conclusions.
    You once said of me that I was rejecting the traditional teaching of the church and yet here you are trying to prove that God has a physical body and blood. The belief that YHWH is a spirit without a corporeal body is one of the basic beliefs of the Judeo Christian world. This has nothing to do with how powerful God is. A being’s power will not be exercised on it’s own. It must be exercised on the basis of decisions made within the character of that being. God’s character is absolute and unchanging, therefore his power could NEVER be exercised to usurp or change his own nature or character. He could never exist or recreate himself with character of less moral purity then himself. He cannot be tempted (which requires the ability to give into temptation) in all ways like mankind.
    Secondly – You doctrine undermines the very hope that the mission of Christ was to foster.
    Christ as a God infects the perfect example for humanity with great gaps of doubt. Your doctrine puts the question there for Satan to exploit in the minds of the saints. “Did Christ do the things he accomplished through his humanity or through his deity?” What part of Christ are we supposed to follow in like manner? Is there a secret guide in scripture that says Christ did this as a man and this as a God? Not to mention that a preexistent Christ opens all kinds of questions. What happened to all the experiences and memories of the pre-incarnate Christ? Did his brain get whipped in some sort of sci-fi brain meld? Is God a Vulcan?
    In fact if Jesus is God and that gave him clear advantage over us in what he accomplished on Earth then how are we supposed to be like him?
    I know you will come up with some mystical excuse from Phil 4 or the like to say that God gave up his divinity, but that causes another great contradiction with the basic tenants of Christianity. Can God stop being God?
    The unchagability of the moral character and “physical” attributes of God are a cornerstone of the Christian faith.  Christ was tempted in all ways like other men.  To be tempted there must be the possibility to sin. Otherwise there is no temptation. To be tempted one must be capable of making a decision between right and wrong. God’s moral character will not allow him to make that choice. There can be no temptation for God and no possibility to sin. If Christ is God then all the scriptures that claim Christ was tempted are lies.
    Again if Christ is not tempted like other men then how are we to draw hope that we can also overcome temptation and sin? I can hear the devil whispering in the ears of man now. “You can’t really over come this problem. After all Christ had to be a God to do it.”
    The same is true for the greatest hope of all, the resurrection. Satan would say “When has a man ever been resurrected? The example of Christ is no example because he is a God.”
    Is Christ called the Savior? Sure, what’s your point?  Christ worked with God for the salvation of mankind. The ability to do the savior’s work was given Christ with the mantle of messiah. The power to save souls came from YHWH and was administered by Christ as part of his mission. This also fits in the exact way in which the Hebrews thought. A human acting or functioning as a savior was called such. Such were all the men of the OT that acted as saviors to the people of Israel.

    Your doctrines dismantle the very rocks and foundations that the Christian hopes are based upon.
    Doctrine has one purpose and it is not to give us points of intellectual debate. It is to be a help in furthering our progress in our journey with God. Teaching should function and do something to help us become more like Christ and complete God’s plan for us. Teaching should not make Christ more of an enigma or lessen his example for us. Doctrine should never bring into doubt the moral character of God.
    Your arrogance shows through clearly in your belief that it takes a God to die for your sins.
    Firstly it is up to God and not you what he will accept as a proper blood sacrifice.
    Secondly from a love aspect it was much harder for God to sacrifice his only begotten son then it would be to sacrifice himself. (As if God could sacrifice himself)
    This was the perfect son. The one he started out to create in the first place with Adam. A son that always did what pleased his father and did what his father asked. This son was the perfect sacrifice and the perfect example. He was not some mystical dual-natured God/man or deity that we cannot relate to. He is a human being that completed the plan of God for all humanity. He purchased us back by supplying the ransom that God would accept.
    It makes no difference what you think you can prove from scripture. There are certain non-changing truths taught from scripture that are absolutely necessary beliefs for a person to be called Christian. Among them are the absolute moral character of God, Christ as our example, Christ as fulfilling the mantle of Messiah with the help of His father and the death, resurrection and eternal life of Christ as the first and greatest hope for mankind. Certainly there are scripture that would seem to go against these basic truths, however that does not diminish their truth, it only means we do not yet know the real meaning of these verses. I have an many occasions shown that deeper study of these verses often prove them to follow these basic truths.
    Your doctrines undermine and bring doubt upon all of these basic truths. Teach them if your want but stop calling them Christian doctrines because they are absolutely not of God.
    I heard someone on here say you were claiming pastor status? Is that true? Then I should get off here and begin praying for the unlucky souls that you will teach. They will need much deprogramming to really walk with God.
    Shame on you WJ for continuing to stubbornly promote doctrines that diminish the moral fiber of YHWH and destroys hope in the hearts of Christians.


    Greetings Martian…. Imust say that was a scathing rebuke you just demonstrated….but as you know this is not a perfect world and needless to say we all fall short…My feeling is if during the course of discussion we find ourselves in error or, we are found in error, yourself and myself, as well as any other participant we are obliged to correct the error whether it be doctrinal,Biblical or in some cases a personal opinion…To call someone a liar and to deminish any contrbution they might have to this forum or even as a pastor of a church does not seem fitting of someone whose interests lies in knowing how to live in spirit and truth…correct me if Iam wrong….


    I do not believe it was a much a personal rebuke of WJ as it was a rebuff of his doctrine.
    However thee is much history between us and I should keep my cool a bit more.

    June 22, 2010 at 9:08 pm#199229
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    martian………….> Good form brother. Me and WJ have went round and round for over 4 yrs now, but I do believe him to be honest in his Opinions, blind as they are, IMO, i do disagree with Him as well a Isa 1:18 and JK the Roo. concerning the TRINITY and the Preexistence of Jesus :) :D

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

    June 22, 2010 at 9:56 pm#199239
    martian
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,05:11)

    Quote (martian @ June 21 2010,20:03)
    OK let's do it your way.  Since Jesus is not like us in every way then he cannot be tempted in all ways like us.


    Hi All

    This is a fallacy and a misrepresentation of the scriptures.

    For Jesus would have to be like the rapist and the Murderer and the child molester and be tempted with every imaginable evil to be like us in every way!

    This is anathema because it means that they make Jesus after their own image and not the image of God!

    WJ


    What nonsense. Have you really been having mental problems?
    Was he tempted in all ways like his brethren or not. Do you follow scriptures or not.

    June 22, 2010 at 10:18 pm#199241
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,16:56)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,05:11)

    Quote (martian @ June 21 2010,20:03)
    OK let's do it your way.  Since Jesus is not like us in every way then he cannot be tempted in all ways like us.


    Hi All

    This is a fallacy and a misrepresentation of the scriptures.

    For Jesus would have to be like the rapist and the Murderer and the child molester and be tempted with every imaginable evil to be like us in every way!

    This is anathema because it means that they make Jesus after their own image and not the image of God!

    WJ


    What nonsense. Have you really been having mental problems?
    Was he tempted in all ways like his brethren or not. Do you follow scriptures or not.


    Martian

    Was he tempted to molest or rape a child?

    Was he tempted to put a dagger through someones heart from bitterness or anger?

    Was he tempted to have sex with a man or beast?

    Was he tempted to have sex with a dead corpse?

    These are all temptations from the sickest and vilest of the human race.

    Did Jesus have to be like them to save them? Did Jesus have those kind of temptations coming out of his heart?

    You have created a Jesus after your own image and not the Jesus of the scriptures “in whom” there was no guile or ability to be tempted like the most evil of men.

    The temptations of Jesus had to do with human weakness and suffering and not from wicked sin that was in him.

    Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But “those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:” These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Matt 15:17-20

    Which one of these things was in Jesus heart?

    Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: “But every man is tempted, WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, AND ENTICED“. James 1:13, 14

    What lust did Jesus have within him to be drawn away and enticed?

    Satan is the “Tempter” and came and found nothing in him.

    Satan tried to “Tempt” him in all points like us. But Jesus was not drawn away by “HIS TEMPTATIONS” because there was nothing in him to respond!

    WJ

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