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Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

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  • February 22, 2010 at 5:09 am#179745
    Catholic Apologist
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 20 2010,07:49)
    Hi terraricca,

    Sorry I have not posted you back yet. I need to gather scriptures I don't readily have in my head, as I did in posting back to CA and TT.

    Hopefully I will have time later on this evening. It's a nice day in Oregon and I'm going to take my girls to the park and then the library.

    I should have a response for you later tonight though.


    Yes, I agree. It was a beautiful day in Oregon.

    I hope you will someday come to realize the utter hopeless position you claim regarding the origin and transmission of NT Scriptures.

    Do you think they fell out of the sky or something?

    February 22, 2010 at 5:13 am#179746
    terraricca
    Participant

    Jodi

    this is the scripture;Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    can you show yours now???

    February 22, 2010 at 5:13 am#179747
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Hi CA,

    Would you mind telling me what it is you believe that I have claimed regarding the origin of the NT scriptures?

    February 22, 2010 at 4:37 pm#179812
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 22 2010,16:13)
    Jodi

    this is the scripture;Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    can you show yours now???


    You must have missed my prior posts where I used John 17:5 to further prove my points.

    John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    John 17:16 `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17  sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth;  18  as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19  and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth.  20  `And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me;  21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.  22  `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

    Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    Acts 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

    1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    Acts 13:30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;[/b]

    The GLORY Christ received was that he was IN FACT the person of the PROMISE, the HOLY ONE who’s FLESH did NOT SEE CORRUPTION.

    The GLORY that Jesus the MAN received was Eternal Life unto MAN. We are promised this glory as well, and it is our hope.

    1 Corinthians 15:38  But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.  39  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh  of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.  40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.  42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.  43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  

    This GLORY was in the beginning WITH God existing in God’s WORDS, where he promised eternal life and He promised a coming Messiah.

    Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie,promised before time began,

    2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to usin Christ Jesus before time began,

    1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

    1 Peter 1:19  but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.  20  He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21  who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,  

    John 12:23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

    There is an abundance of scripture that tells us EXACTLY what Jesus RECEIVED from God, there should be no question as to what the glory was that Jesus was referring to. He received eternal life in his flesh, and he died to remove the sins of others so to lead them also from mortality to immortality.

    The glory that the MAN Jesus received we are DIRECTLY TOLD was a PROMISE that existed before time began. This promise was told throughout t
    ime to the prophets. Abraham and David saw the future Christ and it made them rejoice and have a greater faith in God.

    We are told exactly what Jesus received after he asked God to glorify him. That which Jesus received is EXACTLY what God had promised before time began. Jesus asked the Father to give him that which had been with the Father since the beginning, Eternal Life to human beings.

    February 22, 2010 at 6:14 pm#179834
    terraricca
    Participant

    Jodi

    your understanding and explanation is confusing me,you show many scriptures and your conclusion of them, wow;you have lot of imagination.

    February 22, 2010 at 6:18 pm#179837
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,08:32)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 22 2010,07:40)
    Jodi

    i am right your comments do not fit the scriptures;To see or hear the word Jesus Christ and then think of him as some immortal creature that existed before heaven and earth was created, and to then think of this creature  as temporarily becoming a man, is PURE ANTI CHRIST DOCTRINE

    The person who sits at God's right hand is a MAN of incorruptible flesh and bones. Scripture directly tells us that it is a MAN that sits at God's right hand. Jesus Christ received the position of sitting at God's right hand,  NOT BECAUSE he went back to being some other creature that had such a position before, but because of WHO he was MADE into by God, the first Perfect Man. This man was with God in the beginning in God's Word as a promise of someone to come. The person made unto us as a Master and Christ, Jesus the Immortal MAN, sits at the Father's right hand.

    anyone can see who you represent by your comments .


    terrarrica!   Jesus did exist as a Spirit Being before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 tells us that.  also Rev. 3:14 He is the firstborn of all creation.  No flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God.  Jesus emptied Himself and became a Man, and then He Himself said that He wants that state He was in, back.
    John 17:5  “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the  glory I had with You before the world was.  What glory was that.  He was born of God, Spirit Being.  Again NO FLESH AND BLOOD WILL EVER INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD…….i DON'T THINK THAT OUR HEAVENLY FATHER CAN LOOK AT FLESH.  NOT ONLY THAT NO FLESH CAN LOOK AT GOD JEHOVQAH AND LIVE……
    IMO you better think this through…Jesus was not some kind of freak.  And Jesus had to become like us, with all of our weakness in order to die for us.  He knew were He came from and that is why He did not sin.  If He would not be like that He would have sinned.  Why?  Because ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.  It took someone like Jesus who knew what was at stake not to sin.
    Also in John 1:1  The Word was with God and was God.  Then in verse 14 He became flesh.  That Scripture would not be necessary to say if He was a flesh already.  But He was not…. He was born of the Father who was a Spirit being.  
    Peace and Love Irene


    Irene you say, “Jesus did exist as a Spirit Being before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 tells us that.”

    Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,  the forgiveness of sins.  15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    The person whom we have redemption through his blood is said to be the firstborn over all creation. The above does not say that some spirit creature was the first person God ever created and that person became Christ. The above scripture mentions NOTHING of Jesus being a spirit being but then becoming human.

    The MAN Jesus that died on the cross for us is the PERSON of whom God created heaven and earth because of and for.

    We are told that before time began God promised Eternal Life to human beings, and God made heaven and earth for these human beings to dwell on.

    Scripture sets up for us the understanding of firstborn son. The firstborn son is the son who sits at the father's right hand, and who is given authority over the father's property and wealth.   Adam is shown in Luke 3 to be the first human son of God. Adam was made ruler over God's creation, however sin and death he lost that position. Old Testament scripture reveals to us that the father has the right to declare a younger son with the title firstborn if the eldest is not worthy. We see in fact that JESUS CHRIST, not some immortal creature, but the man who shed his blood on the cross, IS given over all creation the position and title of firstborn son.

    It is the MAN who remained without sin and was raised from the dead no longer able to see corruption in his flesh, that sits at the Father's Right Hand and holds the position of firstborn son over all of creation.  

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

    We cannot find within ourselves, within our flesh and blood bodies, a means to make us righteous and receive immortality. The Spirit of God must be worked in us renewing our minds making them not of a natural mind of men but of a spiritual mind of God.  

    1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.  42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.  43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  45  And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord  from heaven.  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear  the image of the heavenly Man.  50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    How would flesh and blood reveal anything? Flesh and blood represents the man thinking through a natural mind. 1 Corinthians 15:50 has nothing to do with what type of bodies we will have in the resurrection, or rather what type of bodies we cannot have. We were just specifically told what type of bodies we would inherit, incorruptible bodies, and Jesus Christ was RAISED as was promised without his flesh seeing corruption. Jesus we are directly told was raised with flesh and bones. 1 Corinthians 15:50 is telling us what Paul had already explained before in the following-

    1 Corinthians 2:10  but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,  11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.  12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the th
    ings conferred by God on us,  13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,  14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    The Natural Man, the man of carnal mind, the man who thinks according to flesh and blood, CANNOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God, it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits us nothing. We must be born of the Spirit and be renewed in our minds.

    To not be IN the flesh represents that you are not thinking in the flesh, but you are thinking according to the Spirit of God because the Spirit of God is in your flesh causing you to not think with a fleshly mind.

    No matter what we will always be created creatures given a body as God desires. But we cannot think like a created creature and inherit eternal life, we must become like minded with God and think with a righteous heart full of God's wisdom and truth.

    Ephesians 4:20  But you have not so learned Christ,  21  if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:  22  that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,  23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

    February 22, 2010 at 6:25 pm#179840
    terraricca
    Participant

    Jodi

    the devil teaches the same thing,lot of information not relevant to a specific item ,so it is vague ,
    and if discovered you tell that the person cannot understand it because he does not as the spirit .

    very catholic and protestant

    February 22, 2010 at 7:31 pm#179855
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 23 2010,05:14)
    Jodi

    your understanding and explanation is confusing me,you show many scriptures and your conclusion of them, wow;you have lot of imagination.


    Hmm, interesting.

    Scripture says the Son of Man sits at God's right hand, I believe that to mean the Son of Man sits at God's right hand.

    Now what is it that you believe?

    The following are scriptures speaking of Stephen before he was stoned to death,

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,  56  and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

    Jesus the MAN raised with incorruptible flesh sits at the right hand of God.

    Call me the devil if it pleases you terraricca, say, “she must have a demon”, or STONE ME, if it would please you, I will NEVER deny the TRUE IDENTITY of my Savior!!

    February 23, 2010 at 1:39 am#179917
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 23 2010,06:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 23 2010,05:14)
    Jodi

    your understanding and explanation is confusing me,you show many scriptures and your conclusion of them, wow;you have lot of imagination.


    Hmm, interesting.

    Scripture says the Son of Man sits at God's right hand, I believe that to mean the Son of Man sits at God's right hand.

    Now what is it that you believe?

    The following are scriptures speaking of Stephen before he was stoned to death,

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,  56  and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

    Jesus the MAN raised with incorruptible flesh sits at the right hand of God.

    Call me the devil if it pleases you terraricca, say, “she must have a demon”, or STONE ME, if it would please you, I will NEVER deny the TRUE IDENTITY of my Savior!!


    Jodi, even so you do deny some of the Scriptures that tell us that Jeus was the firstborn of ALL CREATION.  FIRSTBORN, FIRSTBORN, you do know what FIRSTBORN MEANS?  Do you ?  You have a child,one?  well we have 4 and our firstborn is a Son.  Then 2 more Son's and our only firstborn Daughter.  If Jesus is the firstborn of ALL  creation, that means that He was here or came forth from the Father as His firstborn of ALL  creation.  We are His adopted Son's.  Made from the dust of the earth.  Jesus was not from the dust of the earth… Even when He became a man, He was conceived from the Spirit of God, a miracle IMO.
    You do quote Scripture but not ARev. 3:14 or do you understand Col. 1:15-17.““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
    “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
    “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
    “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
    “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
    “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
    ““““““““`
    Irene

    February 24, 2010 at 4:21 am#179970
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 23 2010,03:37)
    John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


    Jodi……….They just don't get it Sis. No matter how clear we make it, they just can't get it. God help us all.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………….gene

    February 24, 2010 at 4:43 am#179972
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 22 2010,16:13)
    Jodi

    this is the scripture;Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    can you show yours now???


    Hi T:

    You will find the answer to John 17:5 in the following scriptures.  He is not speaking of pre-existence.  This was forseen by God from the beginning. The following verses are from John 17: 

    Quote
    22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    February 24, 2010 at 5:12 am#179978
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Marty……….You have it right brother.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

    February 24, 2010 at 1:51 pm#180031
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 23 2010,05:18)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,08:32)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 22 2010,07:40)
    Jodi

    i am right your comments do not fit the scriptures;To see or hear the word Jesus Christ and then think of him as some immortal creature that existed before heaven and earth was created, and to then think of this creature  as temporarily becoming a man, is PURE ANTI CHRIST DOCTRINE

    The person who sits at God's right hand is a MAN of incorruptible flesh and bones. Scripture directly tells us that it is a MAN that sits at God's right hand. Jesus Christ received the position of sitting at God's right hand,  NOT BECAUSE he went back to being some other creature that had such a position before, but because of WHO he was MADE into by God, the first Perfect Man. This man was with God in the beginning in God's Word as a promise of someone to come. The person made unto us as a Master and Christ, Jesus the Immortal MAN, sits at the Father's right hand.

    anyone can see who you represent by your comments .


    terrarrica!   Jesus did exist as a Spirit Being before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 tells us that.  also Rev. 3:14 He is the firstborn of all creation.  No flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God.  Jesus emptied Himself and became a Man, and then He Himself said that He wants that state He was in, back.
    John 17:5  “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the  glory I had with You before the world was.  What glory was that.  He was born of God, Spirit Being.  Again NO FLESH AND BLOOD WILL EVER INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD…….i DON'T THINK THAT OUR HEAVENLY FATHER CAN LOOK AT FLESH.  NOT ONLY THAT NO FLESH CAN LOOK AT GOD JEHOVQAH AND LIVE……
    IMO you better think this through…Jesus was not some kind of freak.  And Jesus had to become like us, with all of our weakness in order to die for us.  He knew were He came from and that is why He did not sin.  If He would not be like that He would have sinned.  Why?  Because ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.  It took someone like Jesus who knew what was at stake not to sin.
    Also in John 1:1  The Word was with God and was God.  Then in verse 14 He became flesh.  That Scripture would not be necessary to say if He was a flesh already.  But He was not…. He was born of the Father who was a Spirit being.  
    Peace and Love Irene


    Irene you say, “Jesus did exist as a Spirit Being before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 tells us that.”

    Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,  the forgiveness of sins.  15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    The person whom we have redemption through his blood is said to be the firstborn over all creation. The above does not say that some spirit creature was the first person God ever created and that person became Christ. The above scripture mentions NOTHING of Jesus being a spirit being but then becoming human.

    The MAN Jesus that died on the cross for us is the PERSON of whom God created heaven and earth because of and for.

    We are told that before time began God promised Eternal Life to human beings, and God made heaven and earth for these human beings to dwell on.

    Scripture sets up for us the understanding of firstborn son. The firstborn son is the son who sits at the father's right hand, and who is given authority over the father's property and wealth.   Adam is shown in Luke 3 to be the first human son of God. Adam was made ruler over God's creation, however sin and death he lost that position. Old Testament scripture reveals to us that the father has the right to declare a younger son with the title firstborn if the eldest is not worthy. We see in fact that JESUS CHRIST, not some immortal creature, but the man who shed his blood on the cross, IS given over all creation the position and title of firstborn son.

    It is the MAN who remained without sin and was raised from the dead no longer able to see corruption in his flesh, that sits at the Father's Right Hand and holds the position of firstborn son over all of creation.  

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

    We cannot find within ourselves, within our flesh and blood bodies, a means to make us righteous and receive immortality. The Spirit of God must be worked in us renewing our minds making them not of a natural mind of men but of a spiritual mind of God.  

    1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.  42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.  43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  45  And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord  from heaven.  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear  the image of the heavenly Man.  50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    How would flesh and blood reveal anything? Flesh and blood represents the man thinking through a natural mind. 1 Corinthians 15:50 has nothing to do with what type of bodies we will have in the resurrection, or rather what type of bodies we cannot have. We were just specifically told what type of bodies we would inherit, incorruptible bodies, and Jesus Christ was RAISED as was promised without his flesh seeing corruption. Jesus we are directly told was raised with flesh and bones. 1 Corinthians 15:50 is telling us what Paul had already explained before in the following-

    1 Corinthians 2:10  but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,  11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except t
    he spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.      12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,  13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,  14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    The Natural Man, the man of carnal mind, the man who thinks according to flesh and blood, CANNOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God, it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits us nothing. We must be born of the Spirit and be renewed in our minds.

    To not be IN the flesh represents that you are not thinking in the flesh, but you are thinking according to the Spirit of God because the Spirit of God is in your flesh causing you to not think with a fleshly mind.

    No matter what we will always be created creatures given a body as God desires. But we cannot think like a created creature and inherit eternal life, we must become like minded with God and think with a righteous heart full of God's wisdom and truth.

    Ephesians 4:20  But you have not so learned Christ,  21  if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:  22  that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,  23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.


    Jodi! What you need to do is google HN on the Preexisting of Jesus. A very good article. You show one Scripture that tells me that God send His Son into the World and also that He had a glory with God before the world was. Yet, you think that is not true? Why? Those Scriptures go with other Scriptures.
    John 6:38-40 “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do my will , but the will of Him who send Me.
    verse 39 This is the Father who send Me that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    verse 40 And this is the will of Him who send Me, that everyone who sees the the Son and believes in Him shall have everlasting life; and I shall raise Him up at the last day.
    Scriopture tells us that He had a glory with the Father before the world was. Unless you believe what it says, you interpeting again. And you calling that Anti-Christ doctrine? Scripture lady, not Anti Scriptures. The person that sits at the right hand of God is our Scior Jeus Christ in all His glory , which some He had before the world was John 17:5.
    When are you going to learn this. One day,,,,soon IMO

    These Scriptures first of all tels us that He came from Heaven. Nobody can say this, without being in Heaven, can they? And if you say it is a plan only then you are interpreting Scripture.
    Then it tells us that Jesus will not lose us, if the Father has given us to Him.

    John 8:58
    Jesus said to them” Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
    PLease don't think this is the Father, because it is Jesus talking about Himself.
    John 3:17″For God send His Son into the world not to condemn the world , but that the world through Him might be saved.

    Again God send His Son into the world. He emptied Himself and became a man.

    And the one Scripture you also quote and do not understand in
    John 17:5
    Besides being the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the death. So He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all. Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death.
    Even John 1:1, you don't except, ,makes me really wonder…..
    Even Mr. Armstrong believed that. Of course you deny everything He ever said. Not all He said was wrong. Some yes, but not all. And God called us out of the Catholic Church to learn to read the Bible there and for that I am forever thankful for…….

    For you the Scripture in Galatians fits, because they too started out believing and then turned around. And they are called the foolish Galatians.

    And believing that Christ existed before is what? Look in the mirror…Jesus because He died for us, now is deity, meaning He can never die again. That is Hi reward for dying for us….
    In the Article that is on HN even said about Proverbs 8:22-30 which I also believe, but that really goes over your head….
    Peace and Love Irene

    February 24, 2010 at 7:08 pm#180065
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 25 2010,00:51)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 23 2010,05:18)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,08:32)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 22 2010,07:40)
    Jodi

    i am right your comments do not fit the scriptures;To see or hear the word Jesus Christ and then think of him as some immortal creature that existed before heaven and earth was created, and to then think of this creature  as temporarily becoming a man, is PURE ANTI CHRIST DOCTRINE

    The person who sits at God's right hand is a MAN of incorruptible flesh and bones. Scripture directly tells us that it is a MAN that sits at God's right hand. Jesus Christ received the position of sitting at God's right hand,  NOT BECAUSE he went back to being some other creature that had such a position before, but because of WHO he was MADE into by God, the first Perfect Man. This man was with God in the beginning in God's Word as a promise of someone to come. The person made unto us as a Master and Christ, Jesus the Immortal MAN, sits at the Father's right hand.

    anyone can see who you represent by your comments .


    terrarrica!   Jesus did exist as a Spirit Being before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 tells us that.  also Rev. 3:14 He is the firstborn of all creation.  No flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God.  Jesus emptied Himself and became a Man, and then He Himself said that He wants that state He was in, back.
    John 17:5  “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the  glory I had with You before the world was.  What glory was that.  He was born of God, Spirit Being.  Again NO FLESH AND BLOOD WILL EVER INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD…….i DON'T THINK THAT OUR HEAVENLY FATHER CAN LOOK AT FLESH.  NOT ONLY THAT NO FLESH CAN LOOK AT GOD JEHOVQAH AND LIVE……
    IMO you better think this through…Jesus was not some kind of freak.  And Jesus had to become like us, with all of our weakness in order to die for us.  He knew were He came from and that is why He did not sin.  If He would not be like that He would have sinned.  Why?  Because ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.  It took someone like Jesus who knew what was at stake not to sin.
    Also in John 1:1  The Word was with God and was God.  Then in verse 14 He became flesh.  That Scripture would not be necessary to say if He was a flesh already.  But He was not…. He was born of the Father who was a Spirit being.  
    Peace and Love Irene


    Irene you say, “Jesus did exist as a Spirit Being before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 tells us that.”

    Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,  the forgiveness of sins.  15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    The person whom we have redemption through his blood is said to be the firstborn over all creation. The above does not say that some spirit creature was the first person God ever created and that person became Christ. The above scripture mentions NOTHING of Jesus being a spirit being but then becoming human.

    The MAN Jesus that died on the cross for us is the PERSON of whom God created heaven and earth because of and for.

    We are told that before time began God promised Eternal Life to human beings, and God made heaven and earth for these human beings to dwell on.

    Scripture sets up for us the understanding of firstborn son. The firstborn son is the son who sits at the father's right hand, and who is given authority over the father's property and wealth.   Adam is shown in Luke 3 to be the first human son of God. Adam was made ruler over God's creation, however sin and death he lost that position. Old Testament scripture reveals to us that the father has the right to declare a younger son with the title firstborn if the eldest is not worthy. We see in fact that JESUS CHRIST, not some immortal creature, but the man who shed his blood on the cross, IS given over all creation the position and title of firstborn son.

    It is the MAN who remained without sin and was raised from the dead no longer able to see corruption in his flesh, that sits at the Father's Right Hand and holds the position of firstborn son over all of creation.  

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

    We cannot find within ourselves, within our flesh and blood bodies, a means to make us righteous and receive immortality. The Spirit of God must be worked in us renewing our minds making them not of a natural mind of men but of a spiritual mind of God.  

    1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.  42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.  43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  45  And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord  from heaven.  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear  the image of the heavenly Man.  50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

    Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

    How would flesh and blood reveal anything? Flesh and blood represents the man thinking through a natural mind. 1 Corinthians 15:50 has nothing to do with what type of bodies we will have in the resurrection, or rather what type of bodies we cannot have. We were just specifically told what type of bodies we would inherit, incorruptible bodies, and Jesus Christ was RAISED as was promised without his flesh seeing corruption. Jesus we are directly told was raised with flesh and bones. 1 Corinthians 15:50 is telling us what Paul had already explained before in the f
    ollowing-

    1 Corinthians 2:10  but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,  11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.  12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,  13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,  14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned;

    Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    The Natural Man, the man of carnal mind, the man who thinks according to flesh and blood, CANNOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God, it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits us nothing. We must be born of the Spirit and be renewed in our minds.

    To not be IN the flesh represents that you are not thinking in the flesh, but you are thinking according to the Spirit of God because the Spirit of God is in your flesh causing you to not think with a fleshly mind.

    No matter what we will always be created creatures given a body as God desires. But we cannot think like a created creature and inherit eternal life, we must become like minded with God and think with a righteous heart full of God's wisdom and truth.

    Ephesians 4:20  But you have not so learned Christ,  21  if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:  22  that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,  23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  24  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.


    Jodi!  What you need to do is google HN on the Preexisting of Jesus.  A very good article.  You show one Scripture that tells me that God send His Son into the World and also that He had a glory with God before the world was.  Yet, you think that is not true?  Why?  Those Scriptures go with other Scriptures.  
    John 6:38-40  “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do my will , but the will of Him who send Me.
    verse 39 This is the Father who send Me that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    verse 40  And this is the will of Him who send Me, that everyone who sees the the Son and believes in Him shall have everlasting life; and I shall raise Him up at the last day.
    Scriopture tells us that He had a glory with the Father before the world was.  Unless you believe what it says, you interpeting again.  And you calling that Anti-Christ doctrine?  Scripture lady, not Anti Scriptures.  The person that sits at the right hand of God is our Scior Jeus Christ in all His glory , which some He had before the world was John 17:5.  
    When are you going to learn this.  One day,,,,soon IMO

    These Scriptures first of all tels us that He came from Heaven.  Nobody can say this, without being in Heaven, can they?  And if you say it is a plan only then you are interpreting Scripture.
    Then it tells us that Jesus will not lose us, if the Father has given us to Him.

    John 8:58
    Jesus said to them” Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
    PLease don't think this is the Father, because it is Jesus talking about Himself.
    John 3:17″For God send His Son into the world not to condemn the world , but that the world through Him might be saved.

    Again God send His Son into the world.  He emptied Himself and became a man.

    And the one Scripture you also quote and do not understand in
    John 17:5
    Besides being the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the death.  So He may have preeminence.  Meaning He was first in all.  Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death.
    Even John 1:1, you don't except, ,makes me really wonder…..
    Even Mr. Armstrong believed that.  Of course you deny everything He ever said.  Not all He said was wrong.  Some yes, but not all.  And God called us out of the Catholic Church to learn to read the Bible there and for that I am forever thankful for…….

    For you the Scripture in Galatians fits, because they too started out believing and then turned around.  And they are called the foolish Galatians.

    And believing that Christ existed before is what?  Look in the mirror…Jesus because He died for us, now is deity, meaning He can never die again.  That is Hi reward for dying for us….
    In the Article that is on HN even said about Proverbs 8:22-30 which I also believe, but that really goes over your head….
    Peace and Love Irene


    Irene,

    Have you read my posts?

    It would be apparent from what you write to me that clearly you have not.

    February 24, 2010 at 7:13 pm#180066
    terraricca
    Participant

    94
    Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    I see that Jesus confirm what he says from Jn 17;5 and in verse 24

    GLORY BEFORE CREATION;
    GLORY BEFORE WORLD BEGONE;

    WHAT IS IT YOU DO NOT SEE

    February 24, 2010 at 10:11 pm#180102
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Jodi! I did read your post, however like I said before some Scriptures that you quote you don't take by face value and interpret it to your liking. That is not truth. Not my Scriptures that tell me that Jesus came from Heaven. That He came to do the will of God the Father…. , who send Him. You just deny and deny or interpret the way you want it to say…..
    John 1:1 The Word was God and was with God and that Word in verse 14 became flesh. He was the Spoken Word of God.
    Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a rob dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.” Not a plan or intellect, put a Spirit Being that became flesh in John 1:14.
    Jodi, ask God for some Wisdom He will give it to you…..
    Also even God the Father is calling Jesus God in Hebrew 1:8, just in case you don't believe that He was called God, which is a title.
    Irene

    February 24, 2010 at 10:13 pm#180103
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2010,06:13)
    94
    Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    I see that Jesus confirm what he says from Jn 17;5 and in verse 24

    GLORY BEFORE CREATION;
    GLORY BEFORE WORLD BEGONE;

    WHAT IS IT YOU DO NOT SEE


    Hi T:

    God has foreseen this from the beginning, and that is what Jesus is speaking of here. Jesus was foreodained, and was manifest in God's perfect timing.

    Perhaps the following scripture will help you to understand:

    1 Peter 1:

    Quote
    18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    February 24, 2010 at 11:55 pm#180127
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2010,09:13)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2010,06:13)
    94
    Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    I see that Jesus confirm what he says from Jn 17;5 and in verse 24

    GLORY BEFORE CREATION;
    GLORY BEFORE WORLD BEGONE;

    WHAT IS IT YOU DO NOT SEE


    Hi T:

    God has foreseen this from the beginning, and that is what Jesus is speaking of here.  Jesus was foreodained, and was manifest in God's perfect timing.

    Perhaps the following scripture will help you to understand:

    1 Peter 1:

    Quote
    18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty!   Christ  knew before He created all, that He was to die for His creation , us.  

    Rev 13:8   And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  

    That all goes together with 1 Peter 1:18-20
    It also goes with all other Scriptures that I have given you.  How would you explain those?
    Rev. 3:14
    Col. 1:15  Firstborn of all creation and then Christ created all, just like it says in Col. 1:16-17
    and
    John 1:2
    John 1:1 is the Word of God which is explained in
    Rev. 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
    I asked Jodi the same question what do you do with all these Scriptures, especially Rev. 3:14 and
    Col. 1:15
    and even John 1:1 cause verse 2 tells us that He created all.  God the Father gave Him all authority to do so…..
    Even Genesis says us and our. Who is us and our?
    Peace and Love Irene

    February 25, 2010 at 3:57 am#180159
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 25 2010,10:55)

    Quote (942767 @ Feb. 25 2010,09:13)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2010,06:13)
    94
    Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    I see that Jesus confirm what he says from Jn 17;5 and in verse 24

    GLORY BEFORE CREATION;
    GLORY BEFORE WORLD BEGONE;

    WHAT IS IT YOU DO NOT SEE


    Hi T:

    God has foreseen this from the beginning, and that is what Jesus is speaking of here.  Jesus was foreodained, and was manifest in God's perfect timing.

    Perhaps the following scripture will help you to understand:

    1 Peter 1:

    Quote
    18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty!   Christ  knew before He created all, that He was to die for His creation , us.  

    Rev 13:8   And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  

    That all goes together with 1 Peter 1:18-20
    It also goes with all other Scriptures that I have given you.  How would you explain those?
    Rev. 3:14
    Col. 1:15  Firstborn of all creation and then Christ created all, just like it says in Col. 1:16-17
    and
    John 1:2
    John 1:1 is the Word of God which is explained in
    Rev. 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
    I asked Jodi the same question what do you do with all these Scriptures, especially Rev. 3:14 and
    Col. 1:15
    and even John 1:1 cause verse 2 tells us that He created all.  God the Father gave Him all authority to do so…..
    Even Genesis says us and our.  Who is us and our?
    Peace and Love Irene


    Hi Mrs:

    Genesis 1 states: In the beginning “God” created the heavens and earth. It was God who is the creator.

    And it goes on to say: “Let 'us” make man in our image, and the it states in the image of God created He them “male and female” created He them.

    The “us” here are the angels who were present when he created man. We find this in Job 38:

    NIV

    Quote
    4 “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.

    5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?

    6 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone-

    7 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?

    And then in Genesis we find that God breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils and he became a living soul or person. He was the “the first Adam”. Like God in that he was a living person.

    And Jesus is called the “last Adam”. He like the “first Adam” is a living person, but having obeyed God without sin even unto death, he is like God in that he is a spirit of love, and he is like God in that he is now eternal having been raised from the dead.

    Colossians 1:15-20 states:

    Quote
    15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    I have already stated that he has become like God through obedience to God's Word. He is God's firstborn. The only begotten Son of God and the first born again from the dead.

    The scripture states that a he is the firstborn over all of creation meaning that in his exalted position as head of the church “he is God's firstborn over all of creation”.

    When he was raised again from the dead he stated in Matthew 28

    Quote
    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    or Ephesians 1 the Apostle Paul states:

    Quote
    20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    And so, by the two scriptures that I have posted you should understand that this what is meant by Colossians 1:15. He is God's firstborn over all of creation, but that scripture does not say that Christ created all, but that all things were created by him and for him. God created all things knowing from the beginning that he was going to bring forth a Son through the virgin Mary, and that in him all the promises that were made to Abraham would be fulfilled, and that Jesus was to be his heir.

    John 1:1 states:”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were made by him and without him was nothing made that was made.

    God had a plan in the beginning and that was to make man in his own image. He is the last Adam. The culmination of God's plan for this world and for humanity. He is called the Word of God in that he obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross and now as head of the church he watches over that Word to perform it.

    He wa
    s slain from the foundation of the world means that God had forseen that he would bring forth a Son into the world to be the propitation for our sins.

    No, Mrs. he did not pre-exist his birth into the world, but he was in the heart of the Father. God created all things knowing that in Jesus all of his plan for humanity would be accomplished.

    He was foreordained. That is what the Word of God states.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    February 25, 2010 at 4:39 am#180162
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Marty………Amen Brother, They just don't get it. Jesus did no preexist His berth on earth except in the (FOREORDAINED) plan and will of GOD, He is the First born into the kingdom of GOD from mankind. Just as Peter stated “For he was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested in our time”.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

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