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Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

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  • February 12, 2010 at 11:58 am#177395
    kerwin
    Participant

    Irene,

    Colossians 1:15-16 is speaking of the new creation of which Jesus is the first man and not the old creation of which Adam is the first man.    Scripture tells us that Jesus is the first born of a new creation.  Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:18, and Revelations 1:5 al confirm that.  In other scriptures he is just referred to as the firstborn.

    John 1:1-14 was explained to you by Gollomundi.  His explanation is confirmed by Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:20.

    John 17:5 is really stating the same thing as John 1:1-14, Ephesians 1:4, and 1Peter 1:20.  Jesus also expressed the same idea in John 17:24.

    None of these supports preexisistance but rather they are an example of Jewish esotericism.

    February 12, 2010 at 12:37 pm#177398
    terraricca
    Participant

    KERWIN

    in what way was christ a new creation?

    and if he was a new creation what was the purpose of is new creation?

    February 12, 2010 at 2:00 pm#177402
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    To all

    I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.

    Georg

    February 12, 2010 at 2:26 pm#177406
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00)
    To all

    I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.

    Georg


    Georg,

    Make sure you include yourself in the statement “nobody is interested in truth.”

    thinker

    February 12, 2010 at 2:38 pm#177409
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Feb. 12 2010,12:45)

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,20:49)

    Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,10:14)
    Hi thethinker:

    Did you skip over what Jodi-Lee said here intentionally to avoid the issue?

    Quote
    Abraham it says rejoiced to see the DAY of Christ. Abraham saw Christ and was glad. Did Abraham SEE a pre-existent no name son, and jump for joy? NO, he saw the future day of the MAN Christ, and in seeing that he knew how God would fulfill the promise He made to him, that from his seed all nations would be blessed.

    This is the way that I understand the scriptures as well.  No, no pre-existent Jesus.  He was fore-ordained.

    Please explain what is meant by THEY DRANK OF THE SPIRTUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST?

    How do you drink of a spiritual rock?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    Jude 5 says that Jesus Christ saved them out of Egypt (ESV). The word “Jesus” is in the earliest Greek texts. And Exodus 23 says that it was Jehovah's Messenger who brought the people to into the place which God prepared.

    20 “Behold, I send an Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
    25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

    1. It CLEARLY says that it was God's Messenger who guided them (vs. 20) .
    2. It CLEARLY the Messenger shares Jehovah's name (vs. 21)
    3. It CLEARLY says that the Messenger is called “The Lord your God” (vs. 25) So you shall serve the LORD your God[/b], and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

    God is speaking saying that “He” (the Lord your God, that is, the Messenger) will bless your bread and your water so that “I” (Jehovah) may take away sickness from the midst of you.

    If this Messenger who guided the people and who shared Jehovah's name was not Jesus, then who was it?

    thinker


    Hi Thethinker:

    You evaded my question.  What does it mean that “they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them and that rock was Christ”?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Maty,
    One thing is for sure. You can't drink of anything that does not exist whether it be corporeal or spiritual. Or have you abandoned all common sense?

    Now answer my question. If the Messenger who guided them was not Christ, then who was it (Exodus 23:20-25)?

    “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5 ESV

    btw, You accuse me of ignoring Jodi Lee. But I answered Jodi Lee. I told her that her premise that it was the “plan of God” they drank from was unbelievable. She says also that it was the “plan of God” that came down from heaven. This is intellectual suicide.

    Rational people don't entertain such nonsense.

    thinker

    February 12, 2010 at 2:48 pm#177411
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2010,01:26)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00)
    To all

    I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.

    Georg


    Georg,

    Make sure you include yourself in the statement “nobody is interested in truth.”

    thinker


    thinker

    :D You should be a defence lawyer.

    Georg

    February 12, 2010 at 3:20 pm#177412
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Elizabeth,
    He is – For the Trinity.

    February 12, 2010 at 4:31 pm#177416
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Askin

    Don't I know it.

    Georg

    February 12, 2010 at 4:38 pm#177417
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00)
    To all

    I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.

    Georg


    Georg,

    The fact of the matter is God calls people to the truth, others are in blindness and cannot SEE until God calls them as well.

    What we have occurring on this forum is spiritual warfare between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God.

    God uses the blind as tools for instruction to those who He is calling into the truth, which is a process and can often be quite a struggle.  

    Who are those being called by God and who are those who have been calling themselves to God would be a worthless and endless debate.

    False doctrine comes out of those who have called themselves to God, and are thus limited by carnal understanding.

    February 12, 2010 at 4:45 pm#177418
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Jodi

    I'm proud you admit that.

    Georg

    February 12, 2010 at 4:54 pm#177420
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 12 2010,09:48)

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2010,01:26)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,01:00)
    To all

    I think, the fact that this debate has been going on for almost two years shows, nobody is really interested in the truth, but rather has fun in keeping this debate going, just to see who can give the best argument; how ridiculous, and immature, I might say.

    Georg


    Georg,

    Make sure you include yourself in the statement “nobody is interested in truth.”

    thinker


    thinker

    :D   You should be a defence lawyer.

    Georg


    George

    Why because he made a good point!

    Your statement of course was meant to not include yourself, but in making the statement you show yourself as being an elitist, IMO, which is okay, except to accuse others for holding on to their truth and not being interested in the truth, just like you do “your truth” is circular reasoning isn't it?

    You have been here a long time and I havn't seen you change your beliefs in any way, have you?

    Blessings WJ

    February 12, 2010 at 4:56 pm#177421
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,11:38)
    Georg,

    The fact of the matter is God calls people to the truth, others are in blindness and cannot SEE until God calls them as well.


    Jodi

    Looking in the mirror again, eh?

    Blessings WJ

    February 12, 2010 at 5:22 pm#177422
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 12 2010,04:10)
    Jodi Lee said:

    Quote
    You want to divert to a discussion about how Jesus is not like Moses? How truly pathetic!


    Jodi,

    All you have to do is show that Jesus was like Moses. I gave you Hebrews 3 and you didn't even acknowledge it. Hebrews says that Jesus was counted worthy of “more glory” than Moses. He is counted worty of the glory that God as the builder receives! Yet you just pass over it!

    You misapply the statement in Deuteronomy 18. Moses was not speaking about Christ. He was speaking about His immediates successor which was Joshua. And here is the kicker. Peter cites what Moses said and does not apply the statement to Jesus. In Acts 3 Peter applies the expression “a prophet like me” to each prophet that came in the various generations and foretold the Christ:

    …and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’

    There it is! Peter explicitly said that the statement “a prophet like me” referred to ALL the prophets that spoke of the Christ since the age began. You are given to your “pretexting” method of interpretation.

    There is not one scripture which says that Jesus was like Moses. Hebrews explicitly says that Jesus was SUPERIOR to Moses. It is your anti-Christian, Arian and Gnostic views that require that Jesus be like Moses.

    Jodi Lee:

    Quote
    Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    In the above verses we have the Lord God, and then we have the Lord Christ.  Knowing that the Lord Christ represents the MAN who died on the cross, the Christ that which was made by the Father from the MAN Jesus, it should be obvious that the final “lord” we see in verse 5 could not possible represent the Lord Jesus, it would in fact obviously be the Lord God.


    The above text you give is based in Greek manuscripts which are later and therefore not as reliable. The older manuscripts read thus:

    The ESV:

    4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    The NASB is the same on verse 4:

    4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    The NIV concurs:

    4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[a] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    The three translations I give above are based in OLDER and MORE RELIABLE manuscripts. The text from which you quote came from later manuscripts which do not not agree with Exodus 23:20-25. Jehovah said that His Messenger would guide the people:

    20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.”

    There it is! It was Jehovah's Messenger which guided them and the oldest Greek manuscripts on Jude 4-5 agree. Your text does not agree with Exodus 23!

    IF THE MESSENGER WHO GUIDED THE PEOPLE WAS NOT JESUS AS JUDE 4-5 SAYS, THEN WHO WAS IT?

    You need to educate yourself in these things. More importantly you need to learn how to interpret the scriptures in their context. Moses' statement that there shall be “a prophet like me” is no where applied to Christ in the Bible. It applied first of all to Moses' immediate successor. Then Peter applied it to “that prophet” which appeared in each successive generation of Israel's history who foretold the Christ.

    Again, you must make Christ “like Moses” because to you He was a mere “human being.” This puts you outside true Christianity.

    thinker


    Jack

    Excellent post!

    Eisegesis seems to be the order of the day for many here!

    They boast against what we preach yet they do not back up their assumptions with the scriptures.

    Most of them know nothing of the Greek and Hebrew and do not even know how to do research on given text yet they place themselves above the experts in Greek grammer and the translators of the scriptures!

    They have a birds eye view of the scriptures, meaning they take one text out of its context of the entire word of God and make it say what they want to support their preconcieved manmade doctrines!

    Not a single one of them can address the Greek for passages proving Jesus preexistence, but choose rather to hold on to their false doctrines!

    Most of their doctrines are generated by earlier heretics like Arian and the modern day “Arians” the JWs.

    Have you noticed brother how that most of their doctrines are line upon line in agreement with Watchtowers doctrine concerning Jesus being
    God, and the Holy Spirit, and the immortal spirit/soul of man as well as many others?

    Jesus made us a promise that he would guide us into all truth and gave us the commission to teach and preach in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Matt 28:18-20

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: “but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand“; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Mk 4:11, 12

    Blessings WJ

    February 12, 2010 at 5:39 pm#177425
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 11 2010,18:33)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,03:42)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 10 2010,21:00)

    Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 10 2010,14:54)
    Hi all.
      May I give my opinion?  I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one.  Here is my take on this:

    In Eph.1:9-10    …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
    10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —

      In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST”  meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.

    Other scriptures:

    Col.1:15-16   …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
    16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
     
     This is a good description of Him (Jesus)  … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
    And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”

      And finally Rev.3:14   …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:  (Jesus)
      Notice “and God's Creative Original”.  Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc.  Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.

      Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22   …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
      Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?

    I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother.  He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”

    Just my opinion, what do you think?

    God Bless,  Jerry.


    It is always interesting to me to see how many people agree and disagree on this subject.  Whether you give good Scriptures or not it does not matter.  Even when Jesus Himself is saying this in
    John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”  We know that Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit Being.  He said that is what He was before He became a man and that is were He wanted to go back to.  
    So I agree with you on all the other Scriptures you gave us.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Yes it is truly amazing. At least I can agree with that.

    Let me ask you Irene, is not the glory IN Christ that of a MAN made perfect able to receive eternal life? Are we not told that we likewise will share in the same glory?

    Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

    Romans 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.  28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.  29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us [b]in Christ Jesus before time began,

    -but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit Jesus the HUMAN BEING born of Mary, BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

    There is not a scripture that declares that God sent a spirit son to be morphed into a human, die for us, and then go back to being a spirit being. IMO this goes against direct scriptures that tell us otherwise, and in your doctrine you defile the glory of the Father and His Son!!

     Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know–  23  Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken  by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;  24  whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.  25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.  26  Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.  27  For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.  28  You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'

    Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'   35  Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'   36 “For David after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37  but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38  Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39  and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.  

    1 Corinthians 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.  22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.  23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming…..36  Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.  37  And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain.  38  But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh an
    d bones as you see I have.”

    Did Jesus just appear an immortal man JUST FOR SHOW. What scripture states that after Jesus was raised an immortal human being with flesh and bones he turned into some other creature?There is none, what we have are scriptures that declare he is STILL a MAN, and that he is still of the seed of David.

    39  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh  of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.  40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41 There is one gloryof the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45  And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord  from heaven.  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear  the image of the heavenly Man.

    Jesus was born a NATURAL man and He BECAME a Heavenly MAN, one who's flesh can no longer see corruption but is incorruptible.

    The above shows quite directly IMO that the glory that Jesus received was the glory of human flesh made incorruptible. This glory we are told SPECIFICALLY existed BEFORE time began in God's promise of eternal salvation unto man.

    So what do we make of the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? Is this suppose to mean that flesh and blood itself is EVIL, of course not. Jesus is raised with incorruptible flesh not through the PROFIT of the flesh but through the work of the Holy Spirit IN the flesh. Our own flesh and blood cannot CAUSE us to inherit salvation or the Kingdom of God, it must come from heaven, it must come from God's Spirit renewing man's mind.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    The glory that Jesus received is the SAME glory we shall receive, which is a mortal body made into an Immortal BODY, made of flesh and bones!!

    Romans 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.  23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24  For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

    So unfortunate that the glory of Christ is turned into shame, not a surprise though, scripture does warn that the truth of Christ would be corrupted through lies. IMO pre-existence is the PERFECT example.


    Jodi!  Your problem is that you ignore Scriptures that state that He came from His Father in Heaven to do  His will.  That He is the firstborn of all creation and that the Father gave Him the right to create all after He came forth from the Father.  He is a literal Son and not just a mere man from the dust of the earth.  You give us Scriptures that have nothing to do with Jesus preexisting at all.  When you want to prove something it has to do with the subject at hand.  That's all.  I really did not expect you or Gene ever to understand that……Also you really believe that He would not have sinned if He did not know what was at stake?  I don't at all.  
    COL. 1:15-18 TELLS IT ALL.  He IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND He IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEATH.  SO THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.  MEANING HE WAS FIRST IN ALL.  That is what preeminence means.
    And if you don't believe John 17:5 are you not calling Jesus then a liar?  He said He had a glory with His Father before the world was.   If that glory would only be a plan, is that what He went back to?  No not that I know.  He was a Spirit being before, and He is a Spirit Being now.  The only difference now He will never die again.  
    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…..
    verse 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world….  And read chosen– one too.  Good Scriptures also.  Also have you ever seen a 12 year old go into a Temple or Church and preach the way Jesus did at that age.  You know I love the Proverbs, even though some say it is Wisdom speaking and being born.  Which makes no sense at all.  God the Father always had wisdom, why would He have to create it first.  read Proverbs 8:22-30  good Scriptures.  Did you ever hear that wisdom is a master craftsman?  No.  Mr. Armstrong used to say that Jesus was the Spokesman for God.  Not everything Mr. Armstrong taught us was wrong.  Also in Genesis it says Us and Our that created all.  Who was it?  
    Also John 1:1 Since that Word became flesh we know that it is Jesus that was the Word.  
    This next Scripture I find so important
    Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the WORD OF GOD.  Read on it says that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
    There is no doubt what soever in my mind that Jesus was created long before this World existed.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Jodi!  I am bringuing this to the front, becasue you have not responded to it… I would like an answer to especially Joihn 17:5
    Irene

    February 12, 2010 at 6:23 pm#177437
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,04:39)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 11 2010,18:33)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,03:42)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 10 2010,21:00)

    Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 10 2010,14:54)
    Hi all.
      May I give my opinion?  I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one.  Here is my take on this:

    In Eph.1:9-10    …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
    10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —

      In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST”  meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.

    Other scriptures:

    Col.1:15-16   …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
    16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
     
     This is a good description of Him (Jesus)  … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
    And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”

      And finally Rev.3:14   …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:  (Jesus)
      Notice “and God's Creative Original”.  Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc.  Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.

      Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22   …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
      Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?

    I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother.  He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”

    Just my opinion, what do you think?

    God Bless,  Jerry.


    It is always interesting to me to see how many people agree and disagree on this subject.  Whether you give good Scriptures or not it does not matter.  Even when Jesus Himself is saying this in
    John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”  We know that Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit Being.  He said that is what He was before He became a man and that is were He wanted to go back to.  
    So I agree with you on all the other Scriptures you gave us.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Yes it is truly amazing. At least I can agree with that.

    Let me ask you Irene, is not the glory IN Christ that of a MAN made perfect able to receive eternal life? Are we not told that we likewise will share in the same glory?

    Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

    Romans 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.  28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.  29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us [b]in Christ Jesus before time began,

    -but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit Jesus the HUMAN BEING born of Mary, BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

    There is not a scripture that declares that God sent a spirit son to be morphed into a human, die for us, and then go back to being a spirit being. IMO this goes against direct scriptures that tell us otherwise, and in your doctrine you defile the glory of the Father and His Son!!

     Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know–  23  Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken  by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;  24  whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.  25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.  26  Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.  27  For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.  28  You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'

    Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'   35  Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'   36 “For David after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37  but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38  Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39  and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.  

    1 Corinthians 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.  22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.  23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming…..36  Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.  37  And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some
    other grain.  38  But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Did Jesus just appear an immortal man JUST FOR SHOW. What scripture states that after Jesus was raised an immortal human being with flesh and bones he turned into some other creature?There is none, what we have are scriptures that declare he is STILL a MAN, and that he is still of the seed of David.

    39  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh  of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.  40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41 There is one gloryof the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45  And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord  from heaven.  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear  the image of the heavenly Man.

    Jesus was born a NATURAL man and He BECAME a Heavenly MAN, one who's flesh can no longer see corruption but is incorruptible.

    The above shows quite directly IMO that the glory that Jesus received was the glory of human flesh made incorruptible. This glory we are told SPECIFICALLY existed BEFORE time began in God's promise of eternal salvation unto man.

    So what do we make of the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? Is this suppose to mean that flesh and blood itself is EVIL, of course not. Jesus is raised with incorruptible flesh not through the PROFIT of the flesh but through the work of the Holy Spirit IN the flesh. Our own flesh and blood cannot CAUSE us to inherit salvation or the Kingdom of God, it must come from heaven, it must come from God's Spirit renewing man's mind.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    The glory that Jesus received is the SAME glory we shall receive, which is a mortal body made into an Immortal BODY, made of flesh and bones!!

    Romans 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.  23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24  For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

    So unfortunate that the glory of Christ is turned into shame, not a surprise though, scripture does warn that the truth of Christ would be corrupted through lies. IMO pre-existence is the PERFECT example.


    Jodi!  Your problem is that you ignore Scriptures that state that He came from His Father in Heaven to do  His will.  That He is the firstborn of all creation and that the Father gave Him the right to create all after He came forth from the Father.  He is a literal Son and not just a mere man from the dust of the earth.  You give us Scriptures that have nothing to do with Jesus preexisting at all.  When you want to prove something it has to do with the subject at hand.  That's all.  I really did not expect you or Gene ever to understand that……Also you really believe that He would not have sinned if He did not know what was at stake?  I don't at all.  
    COL. 1:15-18 TELLS IT ALL.  He IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND He IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEATH.  SO THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.  MEANING HE WAS FIRST IN ALL.  That is what preeminence means.
    And if you don't believe John 17:5 are you not calling Jesus then a liar?  He said He had a glory with His Father before the world was.   If that glory would only be a plan, is that what He went back to?  No not that I know.  He was a Spirit being before, and He is a Spirit Being now.  The only difference now He will never die again.  
    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…..
    verse 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world….  And read chosen– one too.  Good Scriptures also.  Also have you ever seen a 12 year old go into a Temple or Church and preach the way Jesus did at that age.  You know I love the Proverbs, even though some say it is Wisdom speaking and being born.  Which makes no sense at all.  God the Father always had wisdom, why would He have to create it first.  read Proverbs 8:22-30  good Scriptures.  Did you ever hear that wisdom is a master craftsman?  No.  Mr. Armstrong used to say that Jesus was the Spokesman for God.  Not everything Mr. Armstrong taught us was wrong.  Also in Genesis it says Us and Our that created all.  Who was it?  
    Also John 1:1 Since that Word became flesh we know that it is Jesus that was the Word.  
    This next Scripture I find so important
    Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the WORD OF GOD.  Read on it says that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
    There is no doubt what soever in my mind that Jesus was created long before this World existed.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Jodi!  I am bringuing this to the front, becasue you have not responded to it… I would like an answer to especially Joihn 17:5
    Irene


    Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?

    February 12, 2010 at 6:45 pm#177440
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23)
    Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?


    This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!

    WJ

    February 12, 2010 at 8:11 pm#177448
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 13 2010,05:23)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 13 2010,04:39)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 11 2010,18:33)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,03:42)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 10 2010,21:00)

    Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 10 2010,14:54)
    Hi all.
      May I give my opinion?  I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one.  Here is my take on this:

    In Eph.1:9-10    …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
    10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —

      In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST”  meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.

    Other scriptures:

    Col.1:15-16   …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
    16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
     
     This is a good description of Him (Jesus)  … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
    And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”

      And finally Rev.3:14   …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:  (Jesus)
      Notice “and God's Creative Original”.  Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc.  Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.

      Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22   …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
      Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?

    I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother.  He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”

    Just my opinion, what do you think?

    God Bless,  Jerry.


    It is always interesting to me to see how many people agree and disagree on this subject.  Whether you give good Scriptures or not it does not matter.  Even when Jesus Himself is saying this in
    John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”  We know that Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit Being.  He said that is what He was before He became a man and that is were He wanted to go back to.  
    So I agree with you on all the other Scriptures you gave us.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Yes it is truly amazing. At least I can agree with that.

    Let me ask you Irene, is not the glory IN Christ that of a MAN made perfect able to receive eternal life? Are we not told that we likewise will share in the same glory?

    Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

    Romans 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.  28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.  29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us [b]in Christ Jesus before time began,

    -but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit Jesus the HUMAN BEING born of Mary, BEFORE TIME BEGAN.

    There is not a scripture that declares that God sent a spirit son to be morphed into a human, die for us, and then go back to being a spirit being. IMO this goes against direct scriptures that tell us otherwise, and in your doctrine you defile the glory of the Father and His Son!!

     Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know–  23  Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken  by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;  24  whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.  25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.  26  Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.  27  For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.  28  You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'

    Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'   35  Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'   36 “For David after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37  but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38  Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39  and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.  

    1 Corinthians 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.  22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.  23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afte
    rward those who are Christ's at His coming…..36      Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.  37  And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain.  38  But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

    Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    Did Jesus just appear an immortal man JUST FOR SHOW. What scripture states that after Jesus was raised an immortal human being with flesh and bones he turned into some other creature?There is none, what we have are scriptures that declare he is STILL a MAN, and that he is still of the seed of David.

    39  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh  of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.  40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.  41 There is one gloryof the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45  And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.  46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord  from heaven.  48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear  the image of the heavenly Man.

    Jesus was born a NATURAL man and He BECAME a Heavenly MAN, one who's flesh can no longer see corruption but is incorruptible.

    The above shows quite directly IMO that the glory that Jesus received was the glory of human flesh made incorruptible. This glory we are told SPECIFICALLY existed BEFORE time began in God's promise of eternal salvation unto man.

    So what do we make of the fact scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom? Is this suppose to mean that flesh and blood itself is EVIL, of course not. Jesus is raised with incorruptible flesh not through the PROFIT of the flesh but through the work of the Holy Spirit IN the flesh. Our own flesh and blood cannot CAUSE us to inherit salvation or the Kingdom of God, it must come from heaven, it must come from God's Spirit renewing man's mind.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    The glory that Jesus received is the SAME glory we shall receive, which is a mortal body made into an Immortal BODY, made of flesh and bones!!

    Romans 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.  23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24  For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

    So unfortunate that the glory of Christ is turned into shame, not a surprise though, scripture does warn that the truth of Christ would be corrupted through lies. IMO pre-existence is the PERFECT example.


    Jodi!  Your problem is that you ignore Scriptures that state that He came from His Father in Heaven to do  His will.  That He is the firstborn of all creation and that the Father gave Him the right to create all after He came forth from the Father.  He is a literal Son and not just a mere man from the dust of the earth.  You give us Scriptures that have nothing to do with Jesus preexisting at all.  When you want to prove something it has to do with the subject at hand.  That's all.  I really did not expect you or Gene ever to understand that……Also you really believe that He would not have sinned if He did not know what was at stake?  I don't at all.  
    COL. 1:15-18 TELLS IT ALL.  He IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND He IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEATH.  SO THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.  MEANING HE WAS FIRST IN ALL.  That is what preeminence means.
    And if you don't believe John 17:5 are you not calling Jesus then a liar?  He said He had a glory with His Father before the world was.   If that glory would only be a plan, is that what He went back to?  No not that I know.  He was a Spirit being before, and He is a Spirit Being now.  The only difference now He will never die again.  
    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…..
    verse 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world….  And read chosen– one too.  Good Scriptures also.  Also have you ever seen a 12 year old go into a Temple or Church and preach the way Jesus did at that age.  You know I love the Proverbs, even though some say it is Wisdom speaking and being born.  Which makes no sense at all.  God the Father always had wisdom, why would He have to create it first.  read Proverbs 8:22-30  good Scriptures.  Did you ever hear that wisdom is a master craftsman?  No.  Mr. Armstrong used to say that Jesus was the Spokesman for God.  Not everything Mr. Armstrong taught us was wrong.  Also in Genesis it says Us and Our that created all.  Who was it?  
    Also John 1:1 Since that Word became flesh we know that it is Jesus that was the Word.  
    This next Scripture I find so important
    Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the WORD OF GOD.  Read on it says that He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
    There is no doubt what soever in my mind that Jesus was created long before this World existed.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Jodi!  I am bringuing this to the front, becasue you have not responded to it… I would like an answer to especially Joihn 17:5
    Irene


    Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?


    No Jodi, Yes, I know John 1:1 is just the plan of God and that plan became flesh and Jesus did not say what He did in John 17:5. all is just a plan and Satan is not real, it is in our minds, Am I getting close? And Col. 1:15-17 is not there. Rev. 3:14 does not say what it does. Just my Scriptures are true. That is Jodi.s idea of proving all things…Did I miss anything…..
    Irene

    February 12, 2010 at 10:10 pm#177464
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,05:45)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23)
    Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?


    This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!

    WJ


    W.J. Show me, because I will never ignore others. but when I put up a scripture and they ignore it, I do the same….
    So don't be to quick to judge me..BTW look at the post that Jodi made, She just puts other Scriptures up that has nothing to do with this subject…. probably is no prove show me were I did that, and I will apologize. .Irene

    February 12, 2010 at 10:18 pm#177465
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,05:45)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23)
    Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?


    This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!

    WJ


    W.J. Look on page 387 I made a post to you and you did not even respond at all to me. So much for me not answering you…
    I will go evn further back and look…

    February 12, 2010 at 10:47 pm#177470
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,05:45)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 12 2010,13:23)
    Irene I have already responded numerous times to your scriptures in FULL detail. You have always completely ignored them. Why should I repeat myself just so you can go and ignore them again?


    This is probably true because I have responded to many scriptures that Irene has posted as so-called proof against the Trinity but she keeps posting the same as if it is proof or as if she never even read my response!

    WJ


    I went back all the way to page 349 were we are having a debate, read it. I addressed you and thinker because I found some other Scriptures in my Husbands Book and gave them to you both. You came back and said:” Why are you against me. I answered that on the same page.
    Then terraricca said something like you doing thinks like that since you have a Dr. in read it yourself. I am very disappointed in you, I even said that I liked you as a person. Well I am changing my mind. Unless you can come up with a proof, I will never say anything to you again……

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