Home Christian Writings Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth? Page 316

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,301 through 6,320 (of 19,165 total)
123…315316317…957958959
  • Author
    Posts
  • February 11, 2010 at 6:59 pm#177195
    igorwulff
    Participant

    Hey Thinker,

    Why first refer to the LORD your God in the third person and a sentence later not…? Also I can't read here that this messenger is the LORD your God, it doesn't necessarily say that.

    And why say, 'my name is in him'? If this messenger would be YHWH, then YHWH would say something like; and he will be called by my name, or will have my name, or be called YHWH. I still see a different meaning in this text, possibly related to authority, there were also angels that were speaking for YHWH in the Old Testament to humans, anyway I will have to think a bit about this.

    February 11, 2010 at 7:14 pm#177198
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,03:51)
    Hi brother WJ, I know you will laugh against every thing that is not agreeing with your views. Please see the post once again and you will realise that there are lot of scriptures which were quoted to disprove this preexistence. if you are so much interested please see the following logics ;


    GM

    That is the problem, you say “the following “Logics“!

    I submit that your source is only using his biased logic and not the facts to support his assertions!

    You didn't find any Greek grammarian to refute my post on John chapter 6. But instead went after John 1:1.

    We are speaking of Jesus preexistence, so why not address the scriptures where Jesus spoke of coming down from heaven and coming from God?

    The world renowned Greek Grammarian AT Robertson in his analogy of John 6:62 says…

    What then if ye should behold (ean oun qewrhte). No “what” in the Greek. Condition of third class with ean and present active subjunctive, “if ye then behold.” Ascending (anabainonta). Present active participle picturing the process. Where he was before (opou hn to proteron). Neuter articular adjective as adverb (accusative of general reference, at the former time as in Matthew 9:8 ; Galatians 3:13 ). “Clear statement of Christ's pre-existence in his own words as in 3:13″ ; 17:5 (cf. 1:1-18 ).

    John 1:1 stills says what it says regardless of the caps!

    “the word was God” or literrally “God was the word”.

    To the foolish logic of men God is merely a spoken word or is a word, thought plan or what ever! Greek foolishness!

    The Word spoken of is identified by John in Rev 19:13 which says the word is a name and that name is given to Jesus!

    That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.

    Your source would have us believe that “Logos” can only be interpreted as 'Spoken word” or “thought” Etc, but that is false because the facts show that the word “Logos” has been used by the Apostles as being something other than a “spoken word” or “thought”.

    WJ

    February 11, 2010 at 7:22 pm#177200
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,01:21)

    Quote (Gene @ Feb. 11 2010,02:40)
    Adam……….Very Good Post brother, I see it that way also.  Peter said it best, Jesus was foreordained (BUT) was manifested in our time. The concept of the preexistence of Jesus has it's roots in the DOCTRINE of THE TRINITY. It is a false teaching of the apostate churches. Jesus was a man who was in the PLAN and WILL of the ONLY TRUE GOD , from the foundation of the world, It was GOD Purpose to take a Human being from humanity and Perfect HIM and raise Him from the dead . Jesus is one of us Humans and always was and will be, he is our (EXACT) Identity and GOD'S work in Him is the (EXACT) work He does in US. Jesus is our brother the (Frist) brom into the family of GOD from among Men. Good Post brother you have it right. IMO

    peace and Love to you and yours Adam………………………gene


    Thank you very much brother Gene. I hope you will address brother WJs post on Greek grammer. He seems to be so much dependent on Greek which caused Christianity to deviate from its mother religion, judaism.

    Love and peace to you
    Adam


    GM

    Where do you think your Bible came from?

    The majority of the text was written in “Koine Greek” the original language of the “Septuagint” and the “New Testament”.

    So you need to understand what the writers of the Greek New Testament and the Septuagint intent was in writing what they did, and to do that the Translators had to follow Greek grammer and rules of translation.

    You guys want to take an english version of the Bible and come up with interpretations that deny the original meaning of the Text based on Greek Grammer! The Translators if they could have would have written a Bible to support your Unitarian assumptions, but they didn't because they remained as true to the Text as possible.

    WJ

    February 11, 2010 at 8:00 pm#177204
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 12 2010,05:59)
    Hey Thinker,

    Why first refer to the LORD your God in the third person and a sentence later not…? Also I can't read here that this messenger is the LORD your God, it doesn't necessarily say that.

    And why say, 'my name is in him'? If this messenger would be YHWH, then YHWH would say something like; and he will be called by my name, or will have my name, or be called YHWH. I still see a different meaning in this text, possibly related to authority, there were also angels that were speaking for YHWH in the Old Testament to humans, anyway I will have to think a bit about this.


    igor,

    I am just telling you what the text says. Note How God speaks of Himself in the FIRST person and the Messenger and also the “Lord your God” in the THIRD person:

    “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
    25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

    Note that God says “I” when referencing Himself and “He” when speaking of His Messenger and the “Lord your God.”

    So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

    There it is! The “He” is the THIRD person for the Messenger and also the “Lord your God.” The “I” is the God who is speaking. Therefore, the Messenger shares Jehovah's name.

    See the link below and read each of my posts:

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2697

    thinker

    February 11, 2010 at 8:10 pm#177207
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,06:58)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,05:41)

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,03:54)

    Quote (Gene @ Feb. 11 2010,03:14)
    Thinker……….Moses was Not a Jew, he was a Levite. Again more assumptions like Preexistences are. Show us (ONE) Scripture the specifically say Jesus Preexisted his Berth as a Being in any form. Post it surely such an important subject as a Preexistent Being would be expressed in scriptures , what was his name , Show activity He was doing , not just scriptures that can be twisted to come out to fit the TRINITARIAN IDEOLOGIES.  

    Thinker hope your wife is OK , did not know She was Sick.

    peace and love……………….gene


    The word “Jew” came to be a representation of God's old covenant people.

    Gene said:

    Quote
    . Show us (ONE) Scripture the specifically say Jesus Preexisted his Berth as a Being in any form.

    John 1:1-14
    Philippians 2

    Jude 5: Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV

    It says that JESUS saved them out of Egypt. Paul said that the Rock that guided them in the wilderness was CHRIST.

    thinker


    Thinker,

    But Christ represents the anointed man that was to come with the genes of David and save man through becoming a perfected MAN.  

    Abraham it says rejoiced to see the DAY of Christ. Abraham saw Christ and was glad. Did Abraham SEE a pre-existent no name son, and jump for joy? NO, he saw the future day of the MAN Christ, and in seeing that he knew how God would fulfill the promise He made to him, that from his seed all nations would be blessed.

    Let me remind you that Christ, the anointed MAN, was planned to one day come before time began. All history from the point of creation occurred to fulfill God's plan, for He created heaven and earth for the Christ (not for a pre-existent no name, but for the Man raised for the dead). All that which occurred unto Israel was done specifically to bring forth the Christ. We see so many things done unto Israel as a symbol of the coming Christ. The Holy Days are a good example, and the blood of the lamb. How about the serpent Moses put up on a staff, that the people had to look upon in order to live? How about the bread that came from heaven? Come on dude, can't you SEE IT!!

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,  2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;  3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself  purged our  sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    A No Name spirit son did NOT save us and sit down at the right hand of God, the MAN Jesus who was anointed with the Holy Spirit did. This MAN is the brightness of God's glory and it is because of this MAN that the Father created heaven and earth.

    Jesus did NOT speak to the fathers, Hebrews makes that clear, does it not?

    1 Corinthians 10:1  Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,  2  all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,  3  all ate the same spiritual food,  4  and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

    Christ did not literally exist in the wilderness and speak to the fathers. Truly how could the man that was not even born yet exist literally during the days of Israel being in the wilderness :O? Moses was the prophet that spoke to the fathers and Moses spoke to Israel of the COMING CHRIST, which is what represent the spiritual rock.  

    What was following Israel was the WHOLE entire plan of God which was held IN the COMING CHRIST!! Christ came forth out of the history God directly planned through Israel!

    Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

    Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,  20  and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,   21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.  22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.  23  And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'   24  Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold  these days.  25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'   26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

    Christ did NOT pre-exist and speak to the fathers. Moses was the prophet that spoke to the fathers, and Moses spoke to them about the coming Christ. The “spiritual” rock that followed them was CHRIST, the coming man who would be anointed with God's Spirit, not some spirit being hovering over them. The Israelites ate of the bread from heaven this was a sign of the spiritual rock that was to come the true bread from heaven Christ (that MAN that died for our sins).

    The scriptures you give to PROVE pre-existence, IMO only prove your utter blindness, and how in that blindness you turn the glory of Christ into a shameful lie.


    Jodi Lee,

    Why can't you keep your posts short and sweet? And why can't you exegete a text on its own? You engage in pretexting, that is, you are all over the place invoking other scriptures and pitting them against each other.

    Your interpretive method leads you to make such ridiculous assertions. For instance you said,

    “What was following Israel was the WHOLE entire plan of God which was held IN the COMING CHRIST!! Christ came forth out of the history God dire
    ctly planned through Israel!”

    You really want us to believe that the “plan of God” guided them in the wilderness?

    It says that they all DRANK from that spiritual rock and that Rock was the Christ!

    The funny thing is that all you anti-trinitarians have a different explanation for this verse. You say that the Christ is the “plan of God.” Paladin says that the Rock itself was anointed. Gene says that there are many Christs and that the Christ which guided them was not Jesus.

    Jodi Lee:

    Quote
    Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,


    The immediate reference was to Joshua.

    Jodi Lee:

    Quote
    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,  2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;  3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself  purged our  sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    A No Name spirit son did NOT save us and sit down at the right hand of God, the MAN Jesus who was anointed with the Holy Spirit did. This MAN is the brightness of God's glory and it is because of this MAN that the Father created heaven and earth.

    Jesus did NOT speak to the fathers, Hebrews makes that clear, does it not?


    This does not exclude Jesus from speaking in times past any more than it excludes prophets from speaking in the last days. Jesus spoke to the fathers in “times past” but not as a  Son. But He CLEARLY did speak:

    Quote
    20 “Behold, I send an Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
    25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you. Exodus 23:20-25


    Note these four facts:

    1. It is the Messenger that guided the people (vs. 20)
    2. The Messenger's voice was to be obeyed (vs. 21), therefore, He spoke
    3.  The Messenger shares Jehovah's name (vs. 21)
    4. The Messenger is explicitly called the “Lord your God” (vs. 25)

    So if this Messenger was not Jesus then who was it?

    Jude 4: Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV

    1 Corinthians 10:4: and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that GUIDED them, and that Rock was Christ.

    Exodus:23:20: Behold, I send an Messenger before you to keep you in the way and TO BRING YOU INTO THE PLACE which I have prepared

    Again, if the Messenger who guided them and whose voice they were to obey was not Jesus, then who was it? It is explicitly said that He shares Jehovah's name and He is explicitly called “the Lord your God.”

    thinker


    Thinker,

    Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

    You said, “The immediate reference was to Joshua.”

    So your point being? Do you just prefer to believe the following does not exist?

    Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,  20  and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,   21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.  22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.  23  And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'   24  Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold  these days.  25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'   26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

    Moses did not teach that some spirit being known as the spiritual rock Christ, hovered over them keeping watch on them in the wilderness. Joshua we know from Acts 3 was a foreshadow of the COMING Christ. Christ was the man to come that would save Israel from their sins, bringing them into the true promise land. Funny how your spiritual rock Christ wasn't much of a savior from sin in the wilderness, for Israel proved to be quite sinful there.

    Jude 1: 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    The Lord Christ was the Man born of the seed of David. The Lord God is YHWH, and it was Him that saved the people out of Egypt. The following scripture proves such.

    Acts 13:7 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.18 Now for a time of about forty years He put up with their ways in the wilderness. 19 And when He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land to them by allotment. 20 After that He gave them judges for about four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they asked for a king; so God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22 And when He
    had removed him,He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus—    24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    I don't even know where to begin with the absurdity and confusion of your doctrine. You say that YHWH is ONE and that both the Son and the Father are YHWH. If the Son is YHWH then why would the Father YHWH need to raise up a Messenger YHWH the Son, why couldn't the Son do it on his OWN? You say that the Son YHWH is the Word in the Old Testament don't you? Why is it then that the Father is acting as the Word unto Moses, telling him about how His Son is going to be a messenger? Wouldn't he already be the messenger?

    What's even more strange is that Deuteronomy 18 as you said yourself is talking about God sending Joshua as being the MESSENGER!!

    So you have created HUGE problems for yourself.

    Exodus 23:20 `Lo, I am sending a messenger before thee to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee in unto the place which I have prepared; 21 be watchful because of his presence, and hearken to his voice, rebel not against him, for he beareth not with your transgression, for My name is in his heart; 22 for, if thou diligently hearken to his voice, and hast done all that which I speak, then I have been at enmity with thine enemies, and have distressed those distressing thee. 23 `For My messenger goeth before thee, and hath brought thee in unto the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Canaanite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite, and I have cut them off.

    Joshua 9:1 And it came to pass when all the kings who were on this side of the Jordan, in the hills and in the lowland and in all the coasts of the Great Sea toward Lebanon–the Hittite, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite--heard about it, 2 that they gathered together to fight with Joshua and Israel with one accord.

    The messenger in Exodus 23 is Joshua and his name in Hebrew means, “Jehovah is generous. Jehovah saves.”

    Joshua 1:1 And it cometh to pass after the death of Moses, servant of Jehovah, that Jehovah speaketh unto Joshua son of Nun, minister of Moses, saying, 2 `Moses my servant is dead, and now, rise, pass over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. 3 `Every place on which the sole of your foot treadeth, to you I have given it, as I have spoken unto Moses. 4 From this wilderness and Lebanon, and unto the great river, the river Phrath, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great Sea — the going in of the sun — is your border. 5 `No man doth station himself before thee all days of thy life; as I have been with Moses, I am with thee, I do not fail thee, nor forsake thee; 6 be strong and courageous, for thou — thou dost cause this people to inherit the land which I have sworn to their fathers to give to them…..15 till that Jehovah giveth rest to your brethren as to yourselves, and they have possessed, even they, the land which Jehovah your God is giving to them; then ye have turned back to the land of your possession, and have possessed it, which Moses, servant of Jehovah, hath given to you beyond the Jordan, [at] the sun-rising.' 16 And they answer Joshua, saying, `All that thou hast commanded us we do; and unto every place whither thou dost send us, we go;17 according to all that we hearkened unto Moses [in], so we hearken unto thee; surely Jehovah thy God is with thee as He hath been with Moses. 18 Any man who doth provoke thy mouth, and doth not hear thy words, in all that thou dost command him, is put to death; only, be strong and courageous.'

    February 11, 2010 at 8:22 pm#177210
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

    1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.

    Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–

    God knew in the wilderness that the Israelites would indeed break His commandments. In the wilderness they committed all sorts of sins. Since the promise of Christ existed before time began, even in the wilderness God had SET UP for them a COMING savior CHRIST to give REPENTENCE for those sins.  

    1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread. 18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

    Romans 5:20  And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound,21 that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Galatians 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' 17 And if, seeking to be declared righteous in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is then Christ a ministrant of sin? let it not be! 18 for if the things I threw down, these again I build up, a transgressor I set myself forth; 19 for I through law, did die, that to God I may live; 20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh — in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me; 21 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law — then Christ died in vain.

    God knew that in giving Israel the law that it would only make sin abound; that it would prove on their own they had no ability to be righteous. Even though sin and death would abound through the law unto Israel there existed a spiritual rock that followed them, a coming Christ that would give them repentance and show that it takes God’s Spirit to build righteousness.

    In the wilderness Israel was given the law, however God had a plan to one day free them from this law, so as they walked in their sins, unbeknownst to them the spiritual rock of Christ also walked with them, that in a day to come they would be set free from their sins.

    Is any of this important to you Thinker? Are all these scriptures I posted just hot air to you?

    Galatians 3:13 Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'

    Thinker what exactly was this “spiritual rock” doing in the wilderness with the Israelites, what was his purpose? He CERTAINLY wasn’t KEEPING them FROM SIN!! Their “spiritual rock” seemed to prove USELESS, just as your doctrine is USELESS!!!!

    February 11, 2010 at 8:24 pm#177211
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,15:10)
    Funny how your spiritual rock Christ wasn't much of a savior from sin in the wilderness, for Israel proved to be quite sinful there.


    Am I reading this right or is this a flat denial that the Lord, the Rock that followed them in Jude 1:4, 5 is not their Savour?

    WJ

    February 11, 2010 at 8:40 pm#177218
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Jodi Lee said:

    Quote
    Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

    You said, “The immediate reference was to Joshua.”

    So your point being? Do you just prefer to believe the following does not exist?


    Jodi,

    I failed to explain my self. The immediate reference was to Joshua because he was a prophet like Moses. Jesus was not like Moses but was superior to Moses.
    Hebrews 3:1-6:

    1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

    Verse 3 says that the glory of Christ is the glory of the builder. Verse 4 says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ receives equal glory with God.

    Tell us how Christ can be like Moses when He is superior to Moses and shares the glory of the builder WITH God.

    Jodi Lee:

    Quote
    Funny how your spiritual rock Christ wasn't much of a savior from sin in the wilderness, for Israel proved to be quite sinful there.


    Where do you get the idea that He saved them from sin? The historical narrative is clear that He saved them from the bondage of the Egyptians.

    “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5

    Enough with your anti-christian rubbish!

    thinker

    February 11, 2010 at 9:15 pm#177230
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 12 2010,07:24)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 11 2010,15:10)
    Funny how your spiritual rock Christ wasn't much of a savior from sin in the wilderness, for Israel proved to be quite sinful there.


    Am I reading this right or is this a flat denial that the Lord, the Rock that followed them in Jude 1:4, 5 is not their Savour?

    WJ

    Hi WJ,

    Do you want to explain to me how Acts chapter 13 does not show us that it was the Father that led Israel out of Egypt. The God that saved Israel from slavery is the same God that set up their savior Jesus of Nazareth.

    Could you as well DEFINE the word CHRIST?

    Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him,He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus

    You see Christ represents that which the Father MADE from the MAN Jesus. In the wilderness God had given the Israelites a law that would condemn them, but what they didn't know is that God also gave them redemption, this redemption was in the “spiritual” rock Christ, the COMING anointed MAN.

    February 11, 2010 at 9:57 pm#177250
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 12 2010,07:40)
    Jodi Lee said:

    Quote
    Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,

    You said, “The immediate reference was to Joshua.”

    So your point being? Do you just prefer to believe the following does not exist?


    Jodi,

    I failed to explain my self. The immediate reference was to Joshua because he was a prophet like Moses. Jesus was not like Moses but was superior to Moses.
    Hebrews 3:1-6:

    1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

    Verse 3 says that the glory of Christ is the glory of the builder. Verse 4 says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ receives equal glory with God.

    Tell us how Christ can be like Moses when He is superior to Moses and shares the glory of the builder WITH God.

    Jodi Lee:

    Quote
    Funny how your spiritual rock Christ wasn't much of a savior from sin in the wilderness, for Israel proved to be quite sinful there.


    Where do you get the idea that He saved them from sin? The historical narrative is clear that He saved them from the bondage of the Egyptians.

    “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5

    Enough with your anti-christian rubbish!

    thinker


    From all I said this is the route of which you’d like to take our discussion?

    You want to divert to a discussion about how Jesus is not like Moses? How truly pathetic!

    Original WordWord Origin
    kurioßfrom kuros (supremacy)
    Transliterated WordTDNT Entry

    Kurios3:1039,486
    Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
    koo'-ree-os    
    Noun Masculine
    Definition
    1.he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    a.the possessor and disposer of a thing
    1.the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
    2.in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    b.is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    c.this title is given to: God, the Messiah
     NAS Word Usage – Total: 720lord 10, Lord 626, Lord of lords 2, Lord's 12, lords 1, master 38, master's 3, masters 8, masters' 1, owner 6, owners 1, sir 11, sirs 1

    Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    In the above verses we have the Lord God, and then we have the Lord Christ.  Knowing that the Lord Christ represents the MAN who died on the cross, the Christ that which was made by the Father from the MAN Jesus, it should be obvious that the final “lord” we see in verse 5 could not possible represent the Lord Jesus, it would in fact obviously be the Lord God.

    Nice choice of translation Thinker, the text is NOT Jesus, but kurios.

    Interesting how you want to use an obvious deception of translation to try and prove your position.  

    Acts 13 proves that it was indeed the Father and MAKER of Jesus Christ that was the God who freed Israel from Egypt.

    I wait for further discussion in relation to the past posts that have not yet been confronted.

    February 12, 2010 at 1:45 am#177283
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,20:49)

    Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,10:14)
    Hi thethinker:

    Did you skip over what Jodi-Lee said here intentionally to avoid the issue?

    Quote
    Abraham it says rejoiced to see the DAY of Christ. Abraham saw Christ and was glad. Did Abraham SEE a pre-existent no name son, and jump for joy? NO, he saw the future day of the MAN Christ, and in seeing that he knew how God would fulfill the promise He made to him, that from his seed all nations would be blessed.

    This is the way that I understand the scriptures as well.  No, no pre-existent Jesus.  He was fore-ordained.

    Please explain what is meant by THEY DRANK OF THE SPIRTUAL ROCK THAT FOLLOWED THEM AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST?

    How do you drink of a spiritual rock?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    Jude 5 says that Jesus Christ saved them out of Egypt (ESV). The word “Jesus” is in the earliest Greek texts. And Exodus 23 says that it was Jehovah's Messenger who brought the people to into the place which God prepared.

    20 “Behold, I send an Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
    25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

    1. It CLEARLY says that it was God's Messenger who guided them (vs. 20) .
    2. It CLEARLY the Messenger shares Jehovah's name (vs. 21)
    3. It CLEARLY says that the Messenger is called “The Lord your God” (vs. 25) So you shall serve the LORD your God[/b], and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

    God is speaking saying that “He” (the Lord your God, that is, the Messenger) will bless your bread and your water so that “I” (Jehovah) may take away sickness from the midst of you.

    If this Messenger who guided the people and who shared Jehovah's name was not Jesus, then who was it?

    thinker


    Hi Thethinker:

    You evaded my question. What does it mean that “they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them and that rock was Christ”?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    February 12, 2010 at 1:52 am#177287
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 12 2010,05:37)
    Hello everyone, it has been some time since i've been here on the forum… although that was also a bit of short time.

    Thinker, it says “for My name is in Him”, isn't it possible they ment, that Jesus/Yeshua comes in the authority of that name, the name of YHWH? Wasn't there a vers that says that the Messiah will come with/in the name, “YHWH our righteousness”?

    and the other part:
    “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.

    Is 'he' about the LORD your God, or about the messenger… or both? I tend to believe that you will serve the LORD your God and that this messenger with bless our bread and water. There also seems to be a clear difference between 'he' and 'i'.


    Hi Igorwulff,

    Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
    in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name is not vocalized
    in the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
    and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
    יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of “GOD the Father”=117.
    “Jesus” REAL name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)
    Philippians 2:9-11 Wherefore God(HolySpirit) also hath highly exalted him(Jesus), and given him(Jesus) a name which is above every name:
    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [עושהי] YÄ-shü-ă means: “YÄ is Savior”.
    “The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117(Gal.1:1); because he is 117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)!
    PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

                         “YHVH is GOD”=117

    YHVH is God's Name transliterated into English.

    GOD’s most sacred Holy Name [יהוה] was given to us directly from the Hebrew language.
    Correctly translating Hebrew into other languages can be difficult however.
    Some basic linguistical rules need to be considered when translating Hebrew texts.
    These include a lack of spacing between words, as a general rule has no written vowels
    and the basic direction in which Hebrew is written (opposite: from right to left).
    Hebrew word spacing is a modern advent that distinguishes one word from the next,
    aiding both translators and multi-linguists alike. Unwritten “implied” vowel sounds
    are a concern because, correct pronunciations of Hebrew words are at risk.

    GOD’s Name (יהוה) transliterates directly into English as YHVH because the Hebrew alphabet
    lacks vowels. Hebrew has NO [W] sound, NO[J] sound and the symbol ש (which looks like a “W”) is pronounced “Sh”.

    [יהוה] GOD’s Name   [י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey     is pronounced  YÄ-hä-vā  &  [יה] YÄ

    So when you see the tetragrammation YHVH, the proper pronunciation is YÄ-hä-vā. (Psalm 45:17)
    This point is made because the correct pronunciation was thought to be lost, which led only to translators’ interpretations.

    The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63.

    Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
    117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
    Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    February 12, 2010 at 2:11 am#177295
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2010,21:21)
    gollamudi,

    Your post on Preexistence and Logus is in agreement with what I also have discovered in my research up to this date.


    Thank you very much brother Kerwin I know you are one of the honest seekers of truth.

    February 12, 2010 at 5:33 am#177355
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2010,21:21)
    gollamudi,

    Your post on Preexistence and Logus is in agreement with what I also have discovered in my research up to this date.


    kerwinn  Then you are ignoring some Scriptures that tell me that Christ did exist before He became a man.  Please explain to me what you think of these Scriptures that I am about to show you.
    Col. 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.
    verse 16 For by Him all things were created, that are in heaven and that are in earth.

    Let me explain before you jump all over me.  Jesus was given all power to create after God created Him.
    Read John 1:1-14 with an open mind.  He created all by the power of God the Father.  Genesis  therefore says “Let us and our”
    John 1:1 tells us that He was in the beginning with God and in verse 14 became Jesus.  There is a Scripture also in
    Rev. 19:13  “He was dipped in blood, and His Name is The Word of God.”  When you see Jesus in that way it becomes clear.  
    Rev. 3:14….:These things says the Amen the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”

    In John 17:5  by Jesus own words He says this
    “And now, O Father, glorify
    Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
    Please don't come up with that it is the plan of God, because we know what Jesus is today, and He is saying that is what He was before the world was.  Are you going to deny that?
    I believe Jesus.  Also the difference between thinker and W,J. is that they believe that Jesus always existed and that I don't believe I see in these Scriptures that He was a created Spirit Being by the Father.

    'Peace and Love Irene

    February 12, 2010 at 6:47 am#177361
    Dancingforyounomore
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,05:54)
    John 1:14
    ….and the word (expression of a thought, idea, plan) became flesh.”


    An earlier translation (can't remember which one off hand) says at John chapter 1, that “the Word came THROUGH flesh”, but even if other translations say the “Word became flesh” it doesn't necessarily mean that the Word itself was Christ, but that Christ was the human manifestation OF GODS WORD.   The Scriptures speak of the Word, as “the word of life”.  This plan, or “word of life” came from God, and then God's word came THROUGH Christ.

    The Word is God because when the angels were sent to carry out God' Word, Gods Word was the same equivalent as God presenting it HIM SELF.  Because the Word came FROM  God, and no one nor anything could thwart God's Word and prevent it from being carried out.

    “By the *word* of Yahweh the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host.”  Psalms33:6

    Psalms 33:9:

    “For He *spoke* and it was done, He COMMANDED and it *stood fast*.”

    Psalms 33:4:

    “For the Word of Yahweh is upright and all his work is done in faithfulness.”

    Psalms 103:20-22:

    “Bless Yahweh you His ANGELS, MIGHTY in strength, *who perform His Word*, obeying the voice of His Word.”

    “Bless Yahweh, all you His hosts, you who SERVE Him, DOING HIS WILL.”

    “bless Yahweh, all you works of His.  In all places of His dominion; Bless Yahweh O my soul.”

    “Let US make man in our image”.   Most likely God was speaking to His angelic host.

    Psalms 104:4-5:

    “He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers.  He established the earth upon it's foundations, so that it will not toter forever and ever.”

    See Isaiah 34:16:

    “……”For His mouth has commanded, and His Spirit has gathered them.”

    “And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then GOD SAID, “Let there be light”, and there was light.”

    “Then God said; “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind; cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”.  And it was so.”

    “Worthy art Thou our Lord and our God.  To receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created.”   Revelation 4:11

    “By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by THE WORD of God.  So that what is seen was not made out of things which is visible.”  Hebrews 11:3

    “For THE WORD of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”   Hebrews 4:12

    “The prophet who has a dream my relate his dream, but let him who has MY WORD, speak MY WORD in truth.  What does straw have in common with grain?  declares Yahweh.  Is not MY WORD LIKE FIRE?  Declares Yahweh.  And like a hammer which shatters a rock?  Jeremiah 23:28-29

    “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the WORD of our God stands forever.”  Isaiah 40:8

    “I have sworn BY MYSELF; THE WORD has gone forth from MY mouth in righteousness, and will not turn back, that to ME every knee will bow,and every tongue will wear allegiance.  They will say OF ME, “ONLY in Yahweh are righteousness and strength.  Men will come to HIM.  And all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame.”  Isaiah 45:22-24

    “So MY WORD be which goes forth FROM MY MOUTH; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I DESIRE, and without succeeding in the matter for which I SENT IT.”   Isaiah 55:11

    See what the scriptures say about the angel of God's presence:

    See Exodus 23:20-23  then compare it with Isaiah 63:8-14
    (you're in for a big surprise.)

    February 12, 2010 at 6:56 am#177363
    Dancingforyounomore
    Participant

    “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil 2:9-11

    Some translations say: “That IN the name of Jesus every knee should bow”……..”

    February 12, 2010 at 7:20 am#177371
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Dancingforyounomore @ Feb. 12 2010,17:47)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,05:54)
    John 1:14
    ….and the word (expression of a thought, idea, plan) became flesh.”


    An earlier translation (can't remember which one off hand) says at John chapter 1, that “the Word came THROUGH flesh”, but even if other translations say the “Word became flesh” it doesn't necessarily mean that the Word itself was Christ, but that Christ was the human manifestation OF GODS WORD.   The Scriptures speak of the Word, as “the word of life”.  This plan, or “word of life” came from God, and then God's word came THROUGH Christ.

    The Word is God because when the angels were sent to carry out God' Word, Gods Word was the same equivalent as God presenting it HIM SELF.  Because the Word came FROM  God, and no one nor anything could thwart God's Word and prevent it from being carried out.

    “By the *word* of Yahweh the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host.”  Psalms33:6

    Psalms 33:9:

    “For He *spoke* and it was done, He COMMANDED and it *stood fast*.”

    Psalms 33:4:

    “For the Word of Yahweh is upright and all his work is done in faithfulness.”

    Psalms 103:20-22:

    “Bless Yahweh you His ANGELS, MIGHTY in strength, *who perform His Word*, obeying the voice of His Word.”

    “Bless Yahweh, all you His hosts, you who SERVE Him, DOING HIS WILL.”

    “bless Yahweh, all you works of His.  In all places of His dominion; Bless Yahweh O my soul.”

    “Let US make man in our image”.   Most likely God was speaking to His angelic host.

    Psalms 104:4-5:

    “He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers.  He established the earth upon it's foundations, so that it will not toter forever and ever.”

    See Isaiah 34:16:

    “……”For His mouth has commanded, and His Spirit has gathered them.”

    “And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then GOD SAID, “Let there be light”, and there was light.”

    “Then God said; “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind; cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”.  And it was so.”

    “Worthy art Thou our Lord and our God.  To receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created.”   Revelation 4:11

    “By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by THE WORD of God.  So that what is seen was not made out of things which is visible.”  Hebrews 11:3

    “For THE WORD of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”   Hebrews 4:12

    “The prophet who has a dream my relate his dream, but let him who has MY WORD, speak MY WORD in truth.  What does straw have in common with grain?  declares Yahweh.  Is not MY WORD LIKE FIRE?  Declares Yahweh.  And like a hammer which shatters a rock?  Jeremiah 23:28-29

    “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the WORD of our God stands forever.”  Isaiah 40:8

    “I have sworn BY MYSELF; THE WORD has gone forth from MY mouth in righteousness, and will not turn back, that to ME every knee will bow,and every tongue will wear allegiance.  They will say OF ME, “ONLY in Yahweh are righteousness and strength.  Men will come to HIM.  And all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame.”  Isaiah 45:22-24

    “So MY WORD be which goes forth FROM MY MOUTH; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I DESIRE, and without succeeding in the matter for which I SENT IT.”   Isaiah 55:11

    See what the scriptures say about the angel of God's presence:

    See Exodus 23:20-23  then compare it with Isaiah 63:8-14
    (you're in for a big surprise.)


    But we also have a Scripture that says this
    Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a rob dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.
    now go down to \verse 18 And He has on His rob and His thigh name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
    i BELIEVE THAT IS TALKING ABOUT Jesus, UNLESS YOU KNOW A OTHER BEING THAT WAS NAMED THAT WAY.  I don't and I believe in John 1:1 it is Jesus also because who else was with God that became flesh?  A plan will never just become flesh.  And you have other Scriptures that tell us that Jesus preexisted His Birth on earth.
    Col. 1:15-17 and
    Rev. 3:14 and by His own words in
    John 17:5
    Unless you want to call Jesus a liar that He did not exist before the world was, then yes.
    You are really interpreting Scriptures.  I am sorry to say but that is in my book 100% wrong to do.  A plan or a thought again cannot become flesh…. that is nonsense.  
    You need to take all Scriptures that I gave and study it and see what then you come up with.  IMO it does not matter what kind of Bible you have, it is always important to use the best that was the closest to the original transcript, which is the Old King James version.  The Rye Bible study of King James is also good.  The New International Bible is not.  We have 5 different Bibles and I have found that the rye and the K.J. is the best.  But no matter what you will find errors in all of them… I go by if I find more then a couple then I know it must be the truth.  IMO Everyone of us, has to prove our believes our self.
    Peace and love Irene

    February 12, 2010 at 8:19 am#177375
    igorwulff
    Participant

    Thinker,

    Yes it is possible what you are saying. However reading this text also doesn't exclude the possibility that “LORD your God”, doesn't have to be about the messenger, which seems far more likely to me. You think that “he” is about the “LORD your God”… I think that “he” is revering back to the messenger… I could be wrong of course. ???

    February 12, 2010 at 9:10 am#177382
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Jodi Lee said:

    Quote
    You want to divert to a discussion about how Jesus is not like Moses? How truly pathetic!


    Jodi,

    All you have to do is show that Jesus was like Moses. I gave you Hebrews 3 and you didn't even acknowledge it. Hebrews says that Jesus was counted worthy of “more glory” than Moses. He is counted worty of the glory that God as the builder receives! Yet you just pass over it!

    You misapply the statement in Deuteronomy 18. Moses was not speaking about Christ. He was speaking about His immediates successor which was Joshua. And here is the kicker. Peter cites what Moses said and does not apply the statement to Jesus. In Acts 3 Peter applies the expression “a prophet like me” to each prophet that came in the various generations and foretold the Christ:

    …and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’

    There it is! Peter explicitly said that the statement “a prophet like me” referred to ALL the prophets that spoke of the Christ since the age began. You are given to your “pretexting” method of interpretation.

    There is not one scripture which says that Jesus was like Moses. Hebrews explicitly says that Jesus was SUPERIOR to Moses. It is your anti-Christian, Arian and Gnostic views that require that Jesus be like Moses.

    Jodi Lee:

    Quote
    Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    In the above verses we have the Lord God, and then we have the Lord Christ.  Knowing that the Lord Christ represents the MAN who died on the cross, the Christ that which was made by the Father from the MAN Jesus, it should be obvious that the final “lord” we see in verse 5 could not possible represent the Lord Jesus, it would in fact obviously be the Lord God.


    The above text you give is based in Greek manuscripts which are later and therefore not as reliable. The older manuscripts read thus:

    The ESV:

    4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    The NASB is the same on verse 4:

    4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    The NIV concurs:

    4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[a] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    The three translations I give above are based in OLDER and MORE RELIABLE manuscripts. The text from which you quote came from later manuscripts which do not not agree with Exodus 23:20-25. Jehovah said that His Messenger would guide the people:

    20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.”

    There it is! It was Jehovah's Messenger which guided them and the oldest Greek manuscripts on Jude 4-5 agree. Your text does not agree with Exodus 23!

    IF THE MESSENGER WHO GUIDED THE PEOPLE WAS NOT JESUS AS JUDE 4-5 SAYS, THEN WHO WAS IT?

    You need to educate yourself in these things. More importantly you need to learn how to interpret the scriptures in their context. Moses' statement that there shall be “a prophet like me” is no where applied to Christ in the Bible. It applied first of all to Moses' immediate successor. Then Peter applied it to “that prophet” which appeared in each successive generation of Israel's history who foretold the Christ.

    Again, you must make Christ “like Moses” because to you He was a mere “human being.” This puts you outside true Christianity.

    thinker

    February 12, 2010 at 11:33 am#177393
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    I am always amazed at some of here on this site, how they ignore you, because they cannot explain the Scriptures that I give them. Instead saying maybe, just maybe you could be rigth, they ignore……
    Nice work……..
    Irene

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 20 posts - 6,301 through 6,320 (of 19,165 total)
123…315316317…957958959
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

 

CREATE NEW TOPIC
ACTIVE TOPICS
POPULAR TOPICS
SITE SEARCH
SUPPORT US
REGISTER

Recent Replies

ALL REPLIES →

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account