Home Christian Writings What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine Page 9

What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 161 through 180 (of 858 total)
123…8910…414243
  • Author
    Posts
  • October 16, 2013 at 8:34 am#776938
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,
    The fact is that your are opposing me, without really knowing why.

    Let’s look at your points:

    You will refute anyone who does the following:

    1) Teach anyone else but the Father as being the one true God;
    2) Teach anyone else but Jesus Yeshua as being the appointed Lord of all;
    3) Teach plural persons as being the one true God;
    4) Oppose me or persecute me for
    saying that the one true God is the
    Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    So, my reply is:

    1) I believe in one true God, the Father. I do not believe in any other Gods.
    2) I believe that Jesus is the Lord.
    3) I believe in one God who manifests himself through his Spirit, the Holy Spirit. This is the one true God.
    4) I could not imagine many Christians opposing you for teaching that the one true God is the Father of Jesus.

    So….. I don’t get it.
    A Christian is a Christian.
    Why separate yourself from other believers just due to a difference in understanding things? I mean there are worse things to worry about than that – such ad do we as Christians obey God’s commandments; Do we love and forgive? Are we humble? Do we serve God and wealth? Etc etc.
    But, honestly…. I think the arguments between Trinitarians and other believers in Christ and God are meaningless, and no fruit comes from it (on both sides).

    Don’t you feel more comfortable keeping opinion to yourself whilst joining other Christians in some way, and sharing a common bond? Because I know I do. My common bond is with Seventh Day Adventists though I am not one. Their belief in Trinity/Jesus as God does not worry me one bit. They do not believe in eternal conscious torment, and that to me IS important, and they are spirit filled.

    Maybe if I was married and my partner was Christian I would be happy to just share with them (where two or three are gathered) but, I’m not, so : it would be pretty lonely if there were not some people who are Christians to talk with now and then.

    My comment about ‘putting away your books’ followed your comment the day before (can’t even remember what it was). See – plank.

    October 16, 2013 at 8:44 am#776939
    2besee
    Participant

    What is your belief in Holy Spirit? (t8)

    October 16, 2013 at 10:14 am#776940
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Wondering, if you go back in our dialogue, you will see that you have said this and that about me, without me opposing you. I thought it was strange and couldn’t understand exactly what it was you were opposing me for, but when people oppose me like that in the past it is usually because I defend the truth that there is one God the Father, and that he is the only true God. This seems to make people irritate, and had no reason to think otherwise with you. Especially when you told me to throw away the books I read, and other such comments, and something along the lines of not reading scripture as it is written.

    Further, you came against me with the same arguments that I hear time and time again from those who promote the Trinity Doctrine, that is, that I say that Jesus is a god, when I do not say that. I teach that there is neither a definite or indefinite article in John 1:1c and this is significant.

    So what about just laying off all that stuff and getting into scripture instead, that way I will not think you are opposing me which is what people do when they believe differently to you. And as you said yourself, you agree with my four points.

    I would appreciate that because at the end of the day, I just want to discuss scripture as that is what this site is for. I am not here to win arguments, but to learn the truth and defend the truth and refute anything that comes against the truth.

    My source is scripture, so I can be swayed by any belief if it can be clearly demonstrated in scripture. I am not an unreasonable person. After all, I like many just assumed that Christianity was the Trinity until I started digging and I have stopped digging ever since. My goal is to know more precious truths of God when I read scripture and talk to others here. It is not a contest. I would rather lose a debate when I am wrong, than win a debate when I am wrong. How would the latter help me? It wouldn’t.

    October 16, 2013 at 11:20 am#776941
    2besee
    Participant

    “However, I still do not understand your comments about mereading too many books and other silly assertions”

    I honestly was just writing as it came to me with that short post. So, how do you not know it was not inspired, and rather than hear, you were upset by it. I’m not saying it definitely was – but you never know. Plus: it is in scripture.

    “Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
    Ecclesiastes.

    I do believe that between you and Mike, everything has become a debate which needs to be won – maybe not so much you – but you are heading that way, and if I’m being blunt… It is better than speaking soothing words, which can mislead! I have been there myself (with debate and discussion) and know that it was not good for me.
    I noticed DavidL speaking a lot of truths, but also noticed your reluctance to hear.
    But, on saying that, I believe you also think about things.
    God disciplines those he loves.

    Regarding discussing scripture : I’m reading the Bible from the start, so, I’d rather just continue reading without discussions (with anyone), thanks.

    Unless you want to ask a question, I’ll answer as best I can.

    I don’t mean you any harm at all t8, and can absolutely understand your interest in finding truth. I’m the same.

    October 16, 2013 at 11:45 am#776942
    Admin
    Keymaster

    There you go again Wondering. Making criticisms about people. I myself and I know Mike would much prefer that we focused on scripture. But instead we get criticised and I know why. It is because we refute others using scripture, and when they cannot answer, they turn to criticism because it is all they have left. This happened to Jesus. He was mainly criticised by the religious of the day and his words were basically ignored. If they had stuck to scripture and searched things out to see if what he said was so, then they could have been taught by the son of God. Instead, they judged him for not washing his hands, eating wheat kernels on the Sabbath (something ludicrous like that), and I am sure that he got a lot of bad rap when he tossed the money changers out of the temple.

    Next. You mention David as inspiring. I disagree. He is just bent on defending an extra-biblical doctrine at any cost. Even at the cost of Jesus, Paul, and Peter’s own words which I remind him almost on a daily basis. I will be blunt as you say you have been. I have no respect for that type of behaviour. He doesn’t even give an answer to these scriptures when he is shown them. At the end of the day, it would be my own fault if believed in the Trinity Doctrine because of pressure, when scripture is clear that the Father is the only true God. I would be held accountable for letting myself be bewitched when I started in the truth of scripture and ended up in the traditions of men. No thanks. If it contradicts scripture, then it is wrong and I stand by that.

    And again you are wrong about me wanting to win arguments for argument sake. In the forums, I have been debating those who try to push all manner of tradition and doctrine on me and others. If they can prove what they say using the scripture or even if it doesn’t contradict scripture, then I will listen. If they contradict it, I will say so, it is as simple as that. I will show them where the contradiction is, and more often that not, I get no response on the scripture, more preaching from them of the same, and more criticism. That is the pattern I have observed many many times.

    Show me the scripture, or show me something that doesn’t contradict scripture, and I will take you seriously. Contradict it with no explanation when it is pointed out, and I no longer take you seriously.

    October 16, 2013 at 11:54 am#776943
    Admin
    Keymaster

    An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.

    Titus 1:9: He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

    October 16, 2013 at 12:38 pm#776944
    Becky
    Participant

    Wondering,

    Did you know that the 7th day Adventists and jehovah witnesses both originated from the Advent Movement of the 1800s that was based on a man named Williams Miller and his prophecies. Theses people broke apart when his prophecy didn’t come true. Some followed Ellen G. white becoming Adventists and the others followed Charles Taze Russell and became witnesses. The majority of the Adventist teachings are the same as held to by the Watchtower Society. The main differences is that they generally adhere to the sabbath and the trinity. Interesting isn’t it. Google it!

    October 16, 2013 at 12:44 pm#776945
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks for sharing.

    October 16, 2013 at 9:22 pm#776946
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky, Yes.
    I’m just reading Wikipedia about them.

    October 16, 2013 at 9:27 pm#776947
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,
    So, what do you believe the Holy Spirit is?

    October 16, 2013 at 9:30 pm#776948
    2besee
    Participant

    T8, So, the Holy Spirit is to you….. who or what?

    October 16, 2013 at 9:31 pm#776949
    2besee
    Participant

    Apologies about double posting and not posting in the correct places, it’s this phone I’m using.

    October 17, 2013 at 1:24 am#776950
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi David,

    You quoted this……………….. however, for in every case the predicate noun stands after the verb, and so, according to Colwell’s rule, properly has the article………………..

    I will counter with the following information from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NET Bible:

    …………………Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb……………………

    Can you see that there are THREE possibilities for a faithful translation? “THE god”, “A god”, and “qualitatively god”. Do you further see that Colwell’s Rule does not DEMAND a definite article, rather than an indefinite one? It only ALLOWS FOR it.

    They go on to say: ……………….The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)……………….

    So even these TRINITARIAN scholars acknowledge that “a god” is a possibility. And they are sensible enough to realize that part b, “the Word was WITH God”, rules out the possibility that the Word was actually “the PERSON of God”.

    The question is: Are YOU sensible enough to realize that as well?

    At any rate, you haven’t shown me that the NWT version of 1:1 is faulty, impossible, or unfaithful. You have only brought to our attention that it makes much more sense for “a god” to have been WITH God in the beginning than it does for our one and only Almighty God to have been WITH Himself.

    October 17, 2013 at 1:54 am#776951
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi wondering,

    I hear “the Spirit must show you” more often than I can count. But to me those people are really saying, “God didn’t create us with a mind and common sense that is capable of reading written words and figuring out what they mean.”

    I reject that thought. We all have God-given common sense. The fact of the scriptures is that there exist many gods, both in heaven and on earth, but only one MOST HIGH god who created all things. And that only leaves one question: Is Jesus that Most High God who created all things? Or is he the SON OF that Most High God? Because he can’t be both. So, which answer can be found in scripture?

    Man, I could write a mile long list of scriptural proofs. But for now, just consider the prayer in Acts 4:24-30. They prayed TO the “Sovereign Lord who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them.” And in verses 29-30, they say, “Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of YOUR HOLY SERVANT JESUS.”

    So I ask you: Is Jesus the “Sovereign Lord who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING IN THEM”? Or is he the “HOLY SERVANT OF” that One?

    The SCRIPTURAL answer is the latter………. which, by necessity excludes the former. And not only that, but if Jesus is not the “Sovereign Lord who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING IN THEM”, then he has no choice but to BE one of the “everything in them” that was made BY that Sovereign Lord.

    And yes, wondering, while I always seek guidance from the Spirit, I used my brain and my God-given common sense to sort that out.

    It seems to me that it is only people whose doctrines AREN’T taught in the scriptures that use that “the Spirit must show you” diversion.

    But we are taught to TEST the spirits, right? And what, if not SCRIPTURE, are we to test them against?

    October 17, 2013 at 2:09 am#776952
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    David said…………. “Yet there are many passages of Scripture that show the three separate Persons of the Godhead working together.”………………

    Here’s one for you:

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    What does it mean that “the head of Christ is God”? Does it mean the head of Christ is the Trinity Godhead?

    October 17, 2013 at 2:12 am#776953
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Here’s another, David:

    John 20:17
    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    To me, these words from Jesus make it obvious that Jesus and we have the same exact God and Father. Our one and only Almighty God is also Jesus’ one and only Almighty God. Perhaps that’s why some of us will become BROTHERS to Jesus, and SONS to God.

    Surely you don’t think you will ever become God’s BROTHER, do you David?

    October 17, 2013 at 2:21 am#776954
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    DavidL says:

    October 14, 2013 at 1:31 am

    You say my belief contradicts Scripture..I say your logic contradicts belief..!!

    Hmmmm…………. Isn’t that a little like me believing the earth is flat, when all the evidence suggests it is round? And then, when you use that evidence, along with your God-given logic to prove to me it’s round, I say, “Your logic contradicts my belief!!” 🙂

    Why are some of you so afraid of the scriptures? Why is it a “no-no” for us to study this Book, and learn all we can about what’s inside it? It’s like some of you just want to close your eyes to the scriptures, and slam us when we use them to prove what we’re claiming. It’s like you’re saying, “I don’t really care what the scriptures say, or even if they prove my doctrine wrong. As long as “the spirit” is telling me the way it is, that’s all I need. And people who pour over scripture after scripture should be ashamed for using their logic to gain a better understanding of God and our history.”

    I just don’t get it.

    October 17, 2013 at 3:17 am#776955
    2besee
    Participant

    Mike,
    (I’m not a trinitarian as such).

    You say that God cannot possibly be the word that he is with.

    Firstly: Word (logos) = God’s own spoken word.

    So let’s look at that with other scriptures; from Mike’s point of view:

    God cannot have love with him, and also be love… (scripture says that God is love)
    God cannot have light with him, and also be light… (scripture says that God is light)

    So then:

    According to Mike and his scholars:

    God is not love, God is not light, because God cannot be something that he is with (possesses).
    That’s quite a profound statement, Mike.

    God is not light, God is not logos, God is not love…. Because he cannot possibly be something he possesses…. Hm..

    Mike, I believe I have just proven your common sense to be faulty!

    Interesting.

    October 17, 2013 at 9:11 am#776956
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Good stuff Mike.

    October 17, 2013 at 9:15 am#776957
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Thanks for your input Mike.

    1 Timothy 5:21
    “I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels”.

    Is this another Godhead working together DavidL?

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