Home Christian Writings What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine Page 8

What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 141 through 160 (of 858 total)
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  • October 14, 2013 at 9:46 pm#776918
    Admin
    Keymaster

    So you deny the rest of what Wondering said then?

    And as for getting us on edge, not at all.

    Scripture is my witness and the opinions of men or women that contradict scripture does not worry me at all. Why should it? That is the truth.

    October 14, 2013 at 10:27 pm#776919
    2besee
    Participant

    T8, No.. you do not agree with me.
    You believe that Jesus is a god, a second pre-existent god, among many gods, and the Holy Spirit is……?……. you never mention the Holy Spirit, that I have seen, neither does Mike. So I assume you see ‘that’ as the JWs do too.

    I believe that Jesus was a man, and did not pre-exist. However…. I believe that in him and speaking through him was the Holy Spirit, which is the very spirit of God, therefore, God.
    So to me, as it says in Hebrews… There is God, there is the Holy Spirit, and there is the son of man (Christ) and the three were as one. So I believe in a trinity, but a different trinity. It was taught by Hermas In the early church, and I think maybe Lactanius. Some say it is the earliest known christianity, and today, though Trinitarians may be initially shocked to hear one claim Jesus was a man, they most often, after listening, see it. It is closer to Trinitarianism than Arian, due to the belief in one God, not multiple gods, and also the three being as one.
    Jesus spoke what the Father in him taught him to say, and the Father was also in Heaven.
    Jesus said he would pray the Father, and the Father would send the comforter, the Holy Spirit. Jesus then went onto say »I« will not leave you comfortless. »I« will come to you. (Jesus just got done saying that the Holy Spirit would come, then he said he would come). This is because the Holy Spirit was speaking the second time, the son of man the first..
    Which is why Jesus said he who says a word against the son of man can be forgiven but he who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or in the one to come.

    Apart from casual conversation though, I do not teach this, because I have a lot to learn.

    October 14, 2013 at 10:36 pm#776920
    2besee
    Participant

    T8 said
    Quote “Yes I have heard many sermons on the Trinity. And not once have I felt God Spirit witness it as truth.”

    T8, I did not ask if you had heard sermons (specifically) on the Trinity, but if you had heard sermons SPOKEN by Trinitarians, and felt the power in them. (such as sermons on Heaven, or eschatology, or on Jesus, etc).

    Or, do you just read?

    October 14, 2013 at 10:51 pm#776921
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You are off base with regards to what I believe and teach.

    I believe that Jesus existed in the FORM of God, emptied himself, partook of flesh, obeyed God, died for our sins, rose from the dead bodily, and then we taken up to God to be at his right-hand side in the glory that he had with him, before the world began.

    In addition, it is not even a matter of believing that angels, the council of God including men, and even Jesus can be called theos in a qualitative way. I say it is not a matter of belief in that it is plainly visible for all to see this in scripture. Its really just a matter of accepting that which is written or not accepting it.

    Nowhere do I teach that Jesus is a god. And for the record, I do not teach that any one angel is a god either. But I acknowledge the reality that scripture uses elohim and theos to describe the council of God, angels, and even Jesus sometimes.

    October 14, 2013 at 10:58 pm#776922
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Oh I get it now.

    This should answer your question sufficiently. I use to be a Trinitarian because that is what I was taught. Although, to be honest I never really checked it out, tried to understand it, or taught it, but I do remember defending it at least once. So it is debatable if I ever really believed it at all. More of an acceptance because I was taught that it was what divided a cult from the truth. Back then if someone asked me if God was a Trinity I would have said yes because I thought that was the right answer.

    During that time, God gave me a vision of Heaven and Hell and answered much prayer and I witnessed true miracles in my life. Since then however, I have grown up and changed my diet of milk and artificial milk for meat. I dare not say that I am 100% correct today and without error, but that I am growing and still learning and have discarded this teaching and tradition for good reason.

    My testimony of Paradise is here in case you are curious.

    The River of Life

    October 15, 2013 at 1:08 am#776923
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,

    Thank you, but you are still not answering my question.
    It is as if to you, everything has become “Trinity v Arianism”?

    Perhaps I am not being clear enough.

    I can listen to sermons (some, not all) by Trinitarians and feel the spirit in what they say.

    Lately, I have been listening to Paul Washer, for an example:

    http://www.youtube.com/v/MlC83WGNjAI

    Would you say that you do not feel the spirit in the message, because he is a Trinitarian?

    October 15, 2013 at 1:23 am#776924
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Yes sometimes I hear speakers who say things with anointing and then in the same breath will mention the Trinity. But man is able to speak under inspiration of God one minute and then speak of his own spirit the next.

    BTW, I thought using myself as an example would have answered this. Clearly, I have seen the anointing of God in my own life when I believed in the Trinity. That I cannot deny. So the answer would be that of course this would be true of others.

    But God does want us to leave behind some things and move onto more things of him. We should be moving in a forward direction, not a backward one and neither just sitting there doing nothing.

    October 15, 2013 at 10:00 am#776925
    2besee
    Participant

    T8, Yes, I believe your vision completely…

    So, you were Trinitarian when you had your vision.
    I was ‘I don’t know what’ when I experienced similar – Just a person drawn to God and scripture.

    A question i have is : Do Arians have visions and dreams? I don’t know… I’m asking because JWs don’t believe in them (You were not Arian when you had your vision).

    I accepted anything (regarding Christology). I believed each person was on their own journey, and if they believed in Jesus and the Father, that was all that mattered.

    I remember reading a book back then called “Christ Anarchy”, i think it was. The author said Jesus was God, and how much like us God was – and I was completely amazed to think about it. I saw God in that way I guess. God was love, and God understood.

    When the JWs sat at table with books, my mind went blank. This always happened when I read their books. I believe God closed my mind.

    I can’t remember when I become Arian. I think I followed somebody.

    I soon become unsettled, because something was wrong to me with the fruit witnessed in Arianism, and also Trinitarianism – at least on forums. I can discern a lot, despite how things might appear. I found Unitarians had good fruit, even though I could not accept their beliefs really.

    So one day, I prayed and asked who Jesus was. I heard.. “The Holy Spirit”.

    Most people told me that can’t be.
    So, I left it.

    To make a long story short, as an Arian, I could not get John 1:1 out of my head. I again asked God for his truth. I came to believe in what is called “spirit christology”. It is not considered a heresy – more something others are seeing also (if you google it).. But I only have pieces of the picture.

    I don’t preach it, and try to keep it to myself now.

    I can accept Trinitarians, so long as they are true, and believe in obedience to God.
    Arianism though upsets me for some reason now. I used to like talking to JWs but lately, I’m not answering my door.
    My “teacher” was an Arian/unitarian.
    I’d like to talk to him again.

    I don’t think discussion forums are good though.
    Truth seeking is personal : Between one and God, and maybe one or two very close people, I think.
    If our lives dwell around Christology.. And trying to get followers to a doctrine… I think we have somehow lost touch, and something is not right.

    That’s just my opinion.

    Have a good night!

    October 15, 2013 at 5:46 pm#776926
    DavidL
    Participant

    wrong again sorry – Jesus was made both Lord and Christ by God..!!
    –
    The problem resides in your logical understanding, that somehow convinces you that this verse (and the 100 others) somehow relates to and denies the oneness of the Lord Jesus with God (the Father with the Son) – when it doesn’t..
    –
    In trying to make sense of God you look to the teachings of Carnal men, instead of listening to the Spirit.. and thus you go astray in your thinking..and start believing that Scriptures relating to the Godhead must be corrupted – when they aren’t.
    –
    If you would lay aside the teachings of men and come back to the purity of Scripture..you will simply enable the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding..and bring revelation.

    October 15, 2013 at 6:32 pm#776927
    DavidL
    Participant

    A skilled lawyer is one that can acquit the defendant regardless of whether he’s guilty or not…he has no intention of establishing the facts, only in winning the case..
    –
    I wonder if you people who attack the Trinity are more interested in winning arguments, than establishing truth .. ?
    –
    Yet unlike lawyers, we who love the truth must be willing to yield if we find ourselves wrong in our understanding of the truth..!!
    –
    I’m not sure what the problem is with believing that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one with God the Father – for us it is a belief that has come straight from the Scriptures themselves, as revealed by the Spirit..and it’s plain to see that (contrary to other ideas) belief in the Trinity elevates Jesus to the rightful position to which He belongs – right up there next to the Father Himself in the highest position of glory..!!!
    –
    And isn’t this exactly what Jesus Himself prayed…”Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.”
    –
    Mike, in defense of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible (and I guess, their cult religion also) says he has, ..challenged anyone and everyone to show him one scripture where the NWT has totally dropped the ball, and translated in a way that the Hebrew or Greek words can’t possibly be translated.. ??
    –
    So…is Mike saying now that he accepts their version as being accurate..!!??
    –
    Are you ‘putting your money where your mouth is’ and saying, “..the word was a god” ????

    October 15, 2013 at 9:18 pm#776928
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I wonder if you people who attack the Trinity are more interested in winning arguments, than establishing truth .. ?

    Definately establishing truth. What advantage is there for me to win an argument based on a false premise? It would harm me or hinder me not help me. For me, it is about defending the truth because the truth is greater than myself. And if every man has to be liar, and the whole world wrong, then so be it. Thankfully it is not like that. There are plenty of people who love the truth and learn from it everyday.

    But I would like to turn the question to you. Are you interested in truth or winning. Because I can answer all the questions and scriptures you give as so-called proof, yet you ignore most of the scriptures I give you. Yet still argue so as to win.

    October 15, 2013 at 9:20 pm#776929
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Are you ‘putting your money where your mouth is’ and saying, “..the word was a god” ????

    I have said it before, but here it is again. There is no article in the Greek in John 1:1c. Neither definite or indefinite. Greek has no indefinite. So I do not add one. I read John 1:1c as qualitative. Even Trinitarian scholars admit that much is true.

    October 15, 2013 at 9:24 pm#776930
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Your argument is not with me but Peter. And it is he you call a carnal man. I merely repeat Peter, so don’t shoot me, shoot him.

    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    October 15, 2013 at 9:27 pm#776931
    Admin
    Keymaster

    If you would lay aside the teachings of men and come back to the purity of Scripture..you will simply enable the Holy Spirit to enlighten your understanding..and bring revelation.

    What you are really saying is the exact opposite.

    You really want me to lay aside hundreds of verses in scripture, and embrace a doctrine created by man three hundred or so years after Christ died and rose again.

    Which is man-made? The Trinity or scripture. I choose scripture and you choose the Trinity. That much is plain for all to see.

    October 15, 2013 at 10:24 pm#776932
    2besee
    Participant

    It is not about what MAN says he is but what GOD says he is..
    It’s not what T8 reveals, it’s not what Mike reveals, it’s not what Sir Isaac Newton reveals or the Watchtower, but what GOD reveals to each individual person if they are willing enough to put aside their own opinions and knowledge.
    Put away your Books!

    October 15, 2013 at 10:30 pm#776933
    Admin
    Keymaster

    That is right Wondering. It is not about t8, Athanasius, or Arius. It is really about God and his son whom he sent.

    “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

    If Jesus is the truth, then his words are true. I believe him when he said that, do you oppose this?

    I read that quote from Jesus in a book called the Bible and I am not about to put that away.

    October 16, 2013 at 4:45 am#776934
    2besee
    Participant

    So what Christian opposes that?

    October 16, 2013 at 4:52 am#776935
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Plenty oppose that. I get opposed for saying that Jesus is the son of the only true God who is the Father. In truth, I am quoting Jesus, but I get opposed and told I read too many books or other red herrings. But the truth is simple. The Father is the one true God. He sent his son who is the one who God made Lord and Christ. So for me, there is one God the Father, and my confession concurs with Jesus, Peter, and Paul.

    Just pure scripture and yet plenty of Christians oppose it because it actually contradicts their extra-biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

    For me, this is really about scripture verses doctrines that came later on. And for me, scripture wins out.

    October 16, 2013 at 5:26 am#776936
    2besee
    Participant

    But, wait a minute : isn’t it YOU who opposes the rest?
    I mean, if I say I believe in one thing, then you imply that I or others don’t follow the Bible… !?

    All I said was that I disagree with the JWs, for a reason.

    Do you think my reason is not good enough?

    October 16, 2013 at 5:42 am#776937
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I am not opposing you per se. I am not even opposing you for your JW comment. That is between you God and the JWs. I am not included here.

    But I do refute doctrines from people that do the following:

    1) Teach anyone else but the Father as being the one true God;
    2) Teach anyone else but Jesus/Yeshua as being the appointed Lord of all;
    3) Teach plural persons as being the one true God;
    4) Oppose me or persecute me for saying that the one true God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    If you have none of the above, then I won’t oppose you on the nature and identity of God. However, I still do not understand your comments about me reading too many books and other silly assertions. For what purpose is this? To me it is because you must disagree with what I teach which is outlined in those 4 point. If so, which of the points are you against?

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