What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 121 through 140 (of 858 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #776898
    DavidL
    Participant

    Yes – Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God..

    so tell me again – How did Peter, this uneducated fisherman reach such a profound conclusion about Christ..?

    Oh, that’s right, he studied the formation of historical doctrine for years, and the endless philosophical thoughts of all those wise rabbis..debating night and day with the learned Pharisees…until one day he finally hit on the right idea…!?

    Cause, basically – by your actions this is how you’re telling us we will discover truth..when really it is this very procedure you pursue, that has brought such confusion and division to Christianity down through the ages…

    In professing your doctrinal beliefs you are sadly only perpetuating the same old historical problems of the past..creating a greater Babylon than the one you think you’ve escaped from..

    #776899
    Admin
    Keymaster

    If you think I am sliding all over the place, then you lack understanding on what I am saying and teaching. It is clear that I have stuck with and have not budged or slid all over the place with concerning who God is.

    “For us, there is one God the Father.” I haven’t changed this since I first spoke to you and I have been defending it ever since.

    And there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, whom God made Lord and Christ.

    #776900
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Yes I understand what the doctrine is saying. The problem is I also understand what scripture says about who the true God is exclusively.

    The Father is the one true God according to Jesus Christ.

    And according to Athanasius and those who crafted the Trinity Doctrine, God is three persons as one substance. Yet remains a HE and not THEM. This is an oxymoron and I reject it not even because it is an oxymoron, but because I accept scripture instead.

    Athanasius is just one of many who we were warned about. Paul said that not long after his life in this world, that men would creep in unaware and lead men away from the simplicity in Christ and toward themselves and their doctrines. History attests to this but not all can see this as they accept these traditions blindly.

    Today, we have people preaching a meta-physical doctrine of the Trinity instead. Heaven doesn’t recognise it.

    #776901
    Admin
    Keymaster

    No David.

    What Peter was shown was directly from the Father. No problem there. The problem arises when you say or anyone says that the Father has revealed to them something that contradicts scripture and Jesus own words.

    Peter’s revelation did not contradict scripture. But the Trinity Doctrine contradicts it completely.

    #776902
    2besee
    Participant

    DavidL said:

    Quote: “I have no interest in Biblical scholarship – only in the discernment of truth to which such Theological study is nothing more than a boring distraction and a complete and utter waste of time…”

    “so tell me again – How did Peter, this uneducated fisherman reach such a profound conclusion about Christ..?

    Oh, that’s right, he studied the formation of historical doctrine for years, and the endless philosophical thoughts of all those wise rabbis..debating night and day with the learned Pharisees…until one day he finally hit on the right idea…!?

    Cause, basically – by your actions this is how you’re telling us we will discover truth..when really it is this very procedure you pursue, that has brought such confusion and division to Christianity down through the ages…” Unquote.

    I completely agree! Could not have said it better.

    #776903
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I think you are right wondering.
    The Trinity is in the realm of theological debate. Whereas Jesus being the son of God and the messiah is in scripture and we can take that, understand it, and accept that without theological debate. It is so simple that even children can know Jesus is Lord and the messiah.

    A famous scientist by the name of Isaac Newton wondered why a metaphysical concept imported from Greek philosophy, a practice of which he was extremely suspicious, was taught as truth when there was shaky inference in scripture. He insisted “the true faith was in the text.”

    And what does the text say? That Jesus is the son of God, the messiah, and the one who, God made Lord. There should be no argument about it IMO. We either accept it or reject it. 🙂

    #776904
    2besee
    Participant

    T8 said, quote….”Cheers. I consider what everyone says too. It is how I have learned most of what I know now. But as you say, the greatest teacher is the Spirit. But I believe that God teaches us through others. So we need to hear what others say, but let the Spirit have the final say” unquote.

    T8,

    Truth is ‘not only’ knowledge of who God is… It also encompasses Love, tolerance, patience, forgiveness, humility, compassion, action… obedience, discernment.
    Among other things, as I’m sure you know.

    With discernment – If we have the spirit of God in us, don’t you think that the spirit would respond deeply to a truth spoken.

    Do you, or have you listened to a trinitarian sermon anywhere, and felt the spirit?
    Or do you only read?

    #776905
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky,
    Okay.
    Why did I single out the JWs?
    They are the only (large) Christian denomination that I have heard of who believe/teach as they do regarding the Holy Spirit.. specifically the belief that God today does not give the gifts of the Holy Spirit, nor healing, nor dreams nor visions, etc, and that Satan is behind it.
    They are the only group of Arians that I have heard of.
    The writings here are Arian also.

    #776906
    DavidL
    Participant

    I’m a disciple – not a Pharisee or Theologian..

    You say you believe the Scriptures yet you quote a lot of stuff from outside Scripture to try and prove what you believe about the Scriptures is true…(?)

    You say Athanasius and others crafted the Trinity Doctrine…yet, as I will point out, the working of the Godhead is plainly evident to all who will simply look to the Scriptures themselves as the sole source for discovering truth…

    The one verse you do quote seems to summarize your whole concept of God and becomes proof for you that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not part of the Godhead…

    Yet there are many passages of Scripture that show the three separate Persons of the Godhead working together..I will share a couple with you that I haven’t looked for..but were just there when I opened my Bible recently..

    1 Corinthians 12:4-6
    v4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same *SPIRIT*.
    v5. There are different kinds of service, but the same *LORD*.
    v6. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same *GOD* at work.

    Here in these verses we see a clear picture of the Godhead – the same God at work.. which includes not just Father God, but the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus…

    John 15:26
    “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.”

    Here again is another very clear picture of the Godhead at work, given to us by our Lord Jesus Himself..

    #776907
    DavidL
    Participant

    You say the Bible has been corrupted by Trinitarian translators…but in my opinion you’ve completely missed the mark, and are really being distracted from the real corruption that is taking place within the church today..(that has nothing to do with the Trinity doctrine)..

    The reason heaven doesn’t recognize what the church is preaching is because the message of the cross is missing… and now we have a carnal gospel, a cross-less Christ, and a commercialized Christianity that is powerless to transform sinners, because it incorporates the flesh life instead of crucifying it..

    In this last hour of earth’s existence we must rediscover the true Gospel of Christ, we must come back again to the message Paul determined to preach – nothing but Christ, and Him crucified..

    #776908
    DavidL
    Participant

    Thanks..

    #776909
    DavidL
    Participant

    The revelation a believer receives today through reading his Bible is no less true than that of Peter’s…

    You say the Trinity contradicts Scripture – but how can it when it proceeds from Scripture..!!??

    The problem is you either deny what the Scripture means, or try and change the wording of verses that are clear evidence for the Godhead (yet you still fail to give any alternative account of Jesus’ preexistence…if He was not God)..(!?)

    #776910
    DavidL
    Participant

    So I guess it would be fair to say that we accept Jesus is Lord and Messiah – but reject the other extra-biblical evidence you produce, as deceptive and misleading…

    The contention is whether belief in the Godhead is Scriptural or not… which is really quite obvious to any unbiased reader of the Word..

    again – I believe we can trust what the Scriptures teach over and above the uninspired thoughts of famous scientists and other philosophical men..

    #776911
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:

    The one verse you do quote seems to summarize your whole concept of God and becomes proof for you that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not part of the Godhead…

    David, I could quote 100 scriptures and have done on this page:

    100 indisputable proof verses – The Trinity Doctrine



    But I quote this particular one over and over because it sticks out and forces you to look at it and you have not sufficiently explained it away. Even better, it is the simple and clear words of our Lord Jesus Christ. So it is up to us to believe him or not. There is no way to discredit it.

    If Jesus says one thing and Athanasius another, then I know who I will listen to.

    John 10:27
    “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

    Think of it as a wake up call to all who trust in the creeds and traditions of men. The time is coming and has come when we all will be called to come out of the great confusion and back to simplicity in Christ.

    #776912
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:

    You say the Bible has been corrupted by Trinitarian translators…but in my opinion you’ve completely missed the mark, and are really being distracted from the real corruption that is taking place within the church today..(that has nothing to do with the Trinity doctrine)..

    I have said it before and I guess I have to repeat myself. The Bible is not corrupted, but some verses in some translations are corrupt or are mistakes. If you disagree, then you have to accept the NWT for example and you would also have to accept 1John 5:7, when it is common knowledge that this is not meant to be in the Bible and hence why many modern versions omit it. It is a well known an undisputed Trinitarian corruption. There are others too.

    #776913
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:

    There are three.
    God.. The Eternal Spirit..and Christ. (Hebrews 9:14).

    Do you realise what you just agreed to DavidL?

    Is that not what we believe and Trinitarians deny?

    We say there is God which is obviously the Father and notice that the Father is omitted in the quote and is instead called God, while Jesus is another? In addition, God has a Spirit which is how he will dwell in all.

    The Trinity states that there are three persons that are a singular God. You agreed that the Father is God and Jesus is another.

    All I can say is thanks for acknowledging the truth guys. God can even make those who oppose us say the same thing. And it is written that all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and I am guessing that many will try to oppose that, but will end up saying anyway. Since you have now agreed that the Father is God and Jesus is another, you are on the right track. Careful not to step away from here. It is an important truth. “For us, there is one God the Father”.

    #776914
    Admin
    Keymaster

    How do you get vinegar from a sponge?

    You must first soak the sponge in vinegar.

    “For us there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    See, there is no vinegar here. It is coming from your own mind.

    #776915
    Admin
    Keymaster

    But you reject the truth that Jesus was made both Lord and Christ by God.

    Further, you reject the truth that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the one true God. He is the God of all comfort.

    2 Corinthians 1:3
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

    #776916
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Yes I have heard many sermons on the Trinity. And not once have I felt God Spirit witness it as truth. It only creates confusion when you seek to understand it. Confusion is not of God, but it is the very definition of Babel.

    For me to accept it, it would have to be taught in scripture. I am rightly suspicious of any doctrine that contradicts scripture.

    #776917
    DavidL
    Participant

    I thanked wondering for pointing out the difference between “Arian” and “Unitarian” – but it sounds like he’s got you guys a bit on edge..!

    The Godhead is all through Scripture – maybe when you finally get round to giving us the correct translation of John 1:1, (what EXACTLY you think it says), we can look at some of these other verses.. 🙂

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