Home Christian Writings What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine Page 6

What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 101 through 120 (of 858 total)
123…567…414243
  • Author
    Posts
  • October 13, 2013 at 10:14 pm#776878
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote “Right, so you have the truth and I do not because. Just because right?” Unquote.

    T8, I am not a teacher and I do not claim to have all truth. Do you?

    We are were only talking about John 1:1.

    I sense the need for agreement with you, and the typically seen reaction toward the fact that we do not need a teacher, because the Holy Spirit is our teacher.
    You say I am judging.. it is you who is judging.
    You are on the defense.

    October 13, 2013 at 10:27 pm#776879
    Becky
    Participant

    I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Saying that they deny the spirit of god is also saying that they do not have the spirit of god. That something I completely disagree with. My parents are active witnesses and always speaking of how the Holy Spirit moves them. As far as the watchtower telling them to take prescribed drug, I have now idea. I have not read that one. But my parents, who again are active witnesses, believe in a more holistic way of living. Which means treating your body with natural food v.s. Chemical man made food. I also don’t think you get my point on on your first comment you secluded and group people and I find that very sad. As far as the Holy Spirit those scriptures say exactly what it is, a spirit. To give it any other definition would be to assume and I think most people know what it means to assume something.

    October 13, 2013 at 10:42 pm#776880
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,
    The problem is, as I see it, you are making God’s word in John 1:1 another being. So, when you read that in the beginning was the word, you are thinking of a separate being to God.
    I do not see it like that. I see God’s word as God’s spoken word. “God in various ways and at various times has spoken through..etc…… But in these last days, he has spoken to us by a son”.

    Anyway, that is just my view and what I was shown when I asked.

    October 13, 2013 at 11:04 pm#776881
    Admin
    Keymaster

    That certainly is the view of most, even going back to the second century fathers. Now consider this:

    There must have been one who was first to be with God. And whoever that would be must be special for the following reasons.

    • Firstborns have special privilege. The first-born of or over all creation would be the most special besides God himself.
    • Most believe this to be Jesus, but if not, then who?
    • Scripture says that God created all things through the Word and it also says exactly the same thing regarding Jesus, that God created all things through his son.
    • Jesus wears the title, the Word of God.
    • The Word was with God. I am sure it means what it says.
    October 13, 2013 at 11:13 pm#776882
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You make assertions that we need the Holy Spirit and do not check to see if I disagree with that, but only assume it. You cannot use that against me because I agree. But you take it further, as you seem to imply that we only need the Holy Spirit. But have you considered that all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

    One does not negate the other. In fact I would go as far to say that the Holy Spirit would never negate or contradict scripture.

    Now we have teachers who explain scripture to us. But the Holy Spirit is the greatest teacher of all. What does the Spirit teach us? It teaches us from life experiences and from the scripture. We should not throw away the latter. So your assertion that I rely in scripture and my own understanding I believe is wrong. I believe that scripture is one of the major ways we can get to know about God, his nature, and his character. And why is that? Because it records the truths and experiences from God of some of the greatest people who have ever lived and we as one body learn from each other. We are not independent bodies, but one body.

    Thus if I am accused of somehow peddling scripture to those who say they only need the Holy Spirit, then I make no apology because we need both.

    October 13, 2013 at 11:50 pm#776883
    Becky
    Participant

    I agree. You said it much better than I could have.

    October 14, 2013 at 12:04 am#776884
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky,
    Do you find it also sad that Paul refers to people in the last days as “Having a form of godliness, but denying its power : from such turn away”?

    I find it odd that you say that I am judging and excluding people when I just finished saying yesterday that I have welcomed Jehovah’s Witnesses most of my life, and have friends who are Jehovah Witnesses. Is that excluding them? I am simply judging their beliefs, and have concluded that they follow the teachings of men, and deny the power of the spirit.
    If I had a friend who was considering becoming one and he was reading here, should I be quiet – or let him be informed?

    October 14, 2013 at 12:11 am#776885
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,

    I never assumed that you disagree (with the spirit as the teacher). I was simply pointing out that I have noticed that the moment a person anywhere takes on the position of a teacher: the moment one shows them the scripture that says we have no need for a teacher, for the Holy Spirit is the teacher: they get angry!! (I’m talking about on forums).

    I have had a person teach me, and I thought it was great! But, sooner or later, I discovered that my teacher was not so great, and I had to return to God. I had no other option.

    But, that is my story. I DID learn things through my ‘human teacher’, too.

    You BTW, are just assuming yourself that I feel we do not need scripture. Whatever gave you that idea?

    October 14, 2013 at 12:14 am#776886
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,
    Yes, your post is worth thinking about later.

    October 14, 2013 at 12:18 am#776887
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Because you opposed me when I was giving scripture and started on this who teacher thing. It came across as the scripture says this, but the Spirit says that.

    October 14, 2013 at 12:21 am#776888
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Cheers. I consider what everyone says too. It is how I have learned most of what I know now. But as you say, the greatest teacher is the Spirit. But I believe that God teaches us through others. So we need to hear what others say, but let the Spirit have the final say.

    October 14, 2013 at 1:03 am#776889
    DavidL
    Participant

    I have no interest in Biblical scholarship – only in the discernment of truth to which such Theological study is nothing more than a boring distraction and a complete and utter waste of time…
    –
    But because you seem to find this analytic comprehension of Biblical Greek so vital to your doctrine I will post for you some information on the subject at hand – Re: the erroneous translations of the Jehovah Witnesses’ Bible..
    –
    Taken form ‘A Biblical and Theological Appraisal’ By Bruce M. Metzger
    –
    “Some years ago Dr. Ernest Cadman Colwell of the University of Chicago pointed out in a study of the Greek definite article that, ‘A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb. … The opening verse of John’s Gospel contains one of the many passages where this rule suggests the translation of a predicate as a definite noun. The absence of the article [before θεος] does not make the predicate indefinite or qualitative when it precedes the verb; it is indefinite in this position only when the context demands it. The context makes no such demand in the Gospel of John, for this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas [John 20:28, ‘My Lord and my God’].’”
    –
    “In a lengthy Appendix in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ translation, which was added to support the mistranslation of John 1:1, there are quoted thirty-five other passages in John where the predicate noun has the definite article in Greek. These are intended to prove that the absence of the article in John 1:1 requires that θεος must be translated “a god.” None of the thirty-five instances is parallel, however, for in every case the predicate noun stands after the verb, and so, according to Colwell’s rule, properly has the article. So far, therefore, from being evidence against the usual translation of John 1:1, these instances add confirmation to the full enunciation of the rule of the Greek definite article.”
    –
    “Furthermore, the additional references quoted in the New World Translation from the Greek of the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, in order to give further support to the erroneous rendering in the opening verse of John, are exactly in conformity with Colwell’s rule, and therefore are added proof of the accuracy of the rule. The other passages adduced in the Appendix are, for one reason or another, not applicable to the question at issue. One must conclude, therefore, that no sound reason has been advanced for altering the traditional rendering of the opening verse of John’s Gospel, ‘..and the Word was God.'”
    –
    http://www.bible-researcher.com/metzger.jw.html

    October 14, 2013 at 1:18 am#776890
    DavidL
    Participant

    I am starting to question the reliability of your intellect when you ascribe such ridiculous statements as – “Jesus is the Son of Himself” to the doctrine of the Trinity..!!
    –
    Jesus, as the Son of God, is equal to and One with the Father..that is what I believe Scripture teaches..

    October 14, 2013 at 1:31 am#776891
    DavidL
    Participant

    You say my belief contradicts Scripture..I say your logic contradicts belief..!!

    October 14, 2013 at 1:36 am#776892
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Right so we should all believe in a doctrine that came three centuries later, was policed by an organisation that killed millions who refused this doctrine, and contradicts the words of the Father, Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter.

    Right got it. Where do I sign up?

    October 14, 2013 at 1:38 am#776893
    Admin
    Keymaster

    But it says the son of God. While you say, the son of the Father.

    Hence you agree then that the Father is God and Jesus is the son of God, the son of the Father.

    Is this progress, or do you slide down another snake back to the beginning?

    October 14, 2013 at 1:40 am#776894
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Let’s be clear. It is not important so much as to what you say, but what scripture says.

    Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”. This is important not only because Jesus said it, but also because it is eternal life.

    Who sent Jesus Christ? God did. Jesus Christ is the son of God. That is who he is. That is the truth. This is the foundation of the true Church, the Body of Christ.

    October 14, 2013 at 1:41 am#776895
    Becky
    Participant

    All I was trying to tell you was that you like you were judging them to me. If you sound like that to me you could very well sound like that to others. I don’t agree with their beliefs either but I feel that there are more loving ways to express that. I never said you excluded them. I was try to say that in your comment you singled them out. I am sure there are other religions that you don’t agree with but they weren’t included, which makes your comment sound more like a judgement. Maybe I should have come right out and said that. Next time I will try to get right to the point of what I want to say.

    October 14, 2013 at 2:48 am#776896
    DavidL
    Participant

    I was simply responding to Mike’s challenge concerning the Jehovah Witnesses translation of John 1:1..
    –
    This is not why I reject their Bible, but only to show one reason why Bible Scholars reject it..

    October 14, 2013 at 3:02 am#776897
    DavidL
    Participant

    you’re the one sliding all over the place – maybe it’s your way of trying to win arguments (make what I say sound confusing), but that’s your choice..
    –
    I thought you would understand the doctrine of the Trinity..One God – three persons..!!??

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