Home Christian Writings What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine Page 5

What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 81 through 100 (of 858 total)
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  • October 13, 2013 at 3:13 am#776858
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    David, you have brought up a lot of the usual “Jesus is God” proof texts. And as is usual for Trinitarians, they must list ALL these things at once, in an effort to overwhelm people with sheer volume. But not one of them actually even hint at some triune Godhead. I would love to discuss them one at a time with you, so you know they don’t really say what you think they do.

    For example, “Before Abraham was, I am”. What would that even mean, David? If the “I am” part was supposed to be Jesus saying he was Jehovah, then he would have had to say, “Before Abraham was, I HAVE BEEN I am.”

    Did you know that EVERY time in the OT that Jehovah says “I am Jehovah”, the Hebrew words are “aniy yhwh”. The “aniy” part means “I am”. So even IF “YHWH” is to be translated as “I AM”, any time Jehovah said who He was, He said “I am I AM”. Did Jesus say “I am I AM” in John 8:58? No. So let’s use “Jehovah” as God’s name for a second. What that means is Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, Jehovah”.

    See? It makes no sense for him to say that. He didn’t say, “Before Abraham was, I WAS Jehovah”, right?

    Now, consider John 14:9, which is almost unanimously translated in English Bibles as, “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I HAVE BEEN among you such a long time?” The actual Greek words are, “after I AM with you such a long time”. But there are MANY idiomatic problems when translating Greek into English, and virtually every English translator “overcomes” that problem in John 14:9, by translating into English as “I HAVE BEEN”, instead of “I AM”. What if they all did that in John 8:58 as well?

    Obviously, the meaning was, “Before Abraham existed, I HAVE BEEN”. But because Trinitarians believe “I AM” is the correct translation of YHWH, and they believe then can turn a nonsensical statement into a declaration of deity, they will continue to translate 14:9 correctly, and 8:58 incorrectly – producing a sentence that makes absolutely no sense in English. And all for naught, because Jesus STILL doesn’t end up saying, “I am I AM”, or “I was I AM”.

    So David,, if you allow me to discuss each and every one of your “Jesus is God” proof texts with you one at a time, we can slowly get to the bottom of every one of them. And you’ll see that not one of them actually even HINTS AT Jesus being the Most High God he is the Son of.

    October 13, 2013 at 3:18 am#776859
    Admin
    Keymaster

    A person who believes in the Trinity Doctrine over the doctrine of Christ is a follower of Athanasius and not Christ, with regards to who Jesus is.

    Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.

    Athanasius and the Trinity Doctrine basically states that there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.

    I wonder David L, if you can answer a question honestly for me.

    In these words of Jesus:
    Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.

    Who is the following word referring to: ‘whom’.
    The only true God or Jesus Christ?

    October 13, 2013 at 3:21 am#776860
    2besee
    Participant

    Mike, t8,

    “In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God”.

    “In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was a god”.

    The spirit shows us that the JW translation is incorrect.
    Your mind will not show us ANYTHING.

    I am not a Trinitarian, but a Spirit Christologist. Trinitarian though is closer.

    October 13, 2013 at 4:24 am#776861
    Oneway
    Participant

    I sometimes wonder why people cannot just read the Bible and accept it. I am constantly amazed at how seldom people just read the Bible and say they accept it. It is really quite simple if one will just do that but most will say “I know it says that, but here is what it really means.” In most cases; everything after ‘this is what is really means’ is just wrong. If God is God I have to assume He had the ability to have recorded in the Bible what He wanted us to believe without having to twist things and look so hard for them. If God wanted us to think of Him and Jesus as being equal; I have to wonder why he allowed the words of Jesus when he said My Father is greater than I. If the Holy Spirit is not just the Spirit of God and is, in fact a third person; I have to wonder why it is not written that way. If Jesus is God and is equal to the Father I have to ask why did he pray at all much less to say in prayer that eternal life was to know the One true God and also to know Jesus. It would have been so easy when Jesus asked the disciples who he was and Peter answered that he was the Christ the Son of the living God, for Jesus to correct him and teach them he was, in fact, God. None of this happened. I never want to minimize the work of Jesus; but neither would I ever want to elevate him past the role of the Father who is the only true God. If we do that we are worshiping the Creation more than the Creator. If we will just read what it says and not add to or take away we will get the truth.

    October 13, 2013 at 5:06 am#776862
    Admin
    Keymaster

    The word theos is applied to not only the Most High God but others. Jesus quoted, “ye are gods” from “ye are elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High God”.

    Why does the term “most High Theos” even exist if ‘theos’ can only apply to the Most High?

    October 13, 2013 at 8:55 am#776863
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,

    “God” is a title.
    There are many that are CALLED gods.

    To the followers of Christ, such as John, there is only one true God.
    So, when John says “The word was with God and the word WAS God” … He means it, and most certainly would of had that in mind, and would not have had the mindset of there being ‘Multiple True Gods’!

    -The word was God’s own Word.
    -The spirit was God’s own Spirit.
    -Jesus was a Man.
    -God was in him through his Spirit.
    -God was also in Heaven.

    I know the JW translation is wrong.

    That is how I see it.

    Becky,
    I have friends who are JWs.

    A higher than average percentage of JWs are living off psychiatric medication. Why? Well… They are told by their magazine that they should take Prozac, etc, to be happy, because God does not heal people. Sad, when one of my friends used to be a Catholic, and a very successful, and motivated woman, who believed in God’s miracles, only now as a JW to be living in a mental hospital. So if you find it upsetting that I judge this as wrong, would your prefer me to tell her it is okay; just keep following those men; read your magazines; take your drugs as they tell you; and you will be fine? NO. I would rather tell her to BELIEVE in what she used to believe. Believe in the power of God to heal you.

    As to the person of the Holy Spirit, it is all through scripture.
    Google “Person of Holy Spirit” and you should find lists of scriptures.

    The Holy Spirit is not another God, but God’s own spirit.
    The spirit knows the mind of God.

    That is what I believe.

    October 13, 2013 at 9:33 am#776864
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I agree with much of what you say and it is clear to me that you at least think about things and seek them out, rather than just take the traditional view of things without question.

    But there are some difficulties with your view.

    1) The Word was with God
    2) In the beginning

    I would make the case to you that the beginning being spoken of is when the Word that was in God is now WITH him. The second century fathers believed that this was the first work of God and it did not minus the Word in God when he expressed/begat another. (Note: not first created thing and remember that there is no beginning with God).

    Further, we see later in John 1:18 this verse:

    John 1:18
    18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Yes this verse is translated as son in other bibles. But after discussing this with DavidL, I looked more into this and it is a weird verse because we are well aware that the AKJV has a Trinity bias and known Trinitarian corruptions in the translation and the textus receptive. And most modern bibles use much older texts including the DSC, and do not include these for good reason.

    Yet this verse is in these modern bibles and not in the AKJV hinting at the possibility that it could legitimately belong there. But before DavidL or any other Trinitarian gets excited, it should be noted that the word ‘begotten’ is there also and that is a game changer. So the begotten theos would certainly answer to John 1:1c, ‘the Word was theos’, but it would absolutely contradict the Trinitarian view because to be begotten means to come from someone else, namely God who is the Father.

    Of course it could say ‘begotten’ son instead, but either one certainly does not teach a Trinity. But what is interesting is that if ‘begotten theos’ is wrong, then it goes a long way back. From what I have read, it appears that Origen quoted it this way and he came up with the eternal generation of the son theory. I need to check this though.

    Whatever the case, he was begotten from the Father as the son and theos or just the son and there is no hint of a Trinity in John 1:1 which seems to be what Trinitarians consider as their cornerstone of their doctrine.

    October 13, 2013 at 9:37 am#776865
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,
    You said,
    Quote “The word theos is applied to not only
    the Most High God but others. Jesus
    quoted, “ye are gods” from “ye are
    elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High
    God”.
    Why does the term “most High Theos”
    even exist if ‘theos’ can only apply to
    the Most High?” Unquote.

    This has nothing to do with John 1:1.

    If you really seeked truth, then you would ask God what it meant.
    You would hear the true words ringing through.

    October 13, 2013 at 9:40 am#776866
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I also agree that the JW translation is perhaps just as presumptuous as the Trinitarian translations of John 1:1. There is neither a definite or indefinite article preceding the last mention of theos in John 1:1.

    The dificulties I have with either is this:

    > The Word was THE God basically means that Jesus is God to the exclusion of the Father.
    > The Word was a god basically says that there were 2 gods in the beginning. One eternal one and a smaller one.

    Although the latter could be said to answer to ‘begotten theos’ of John 1:18 if indeed that is the correct wording, it has to be noted that there is no indefinite article in Greek and thus I don’t see anyone being singled out as A god in the text, instead they are singled out as THE God. e.g., the theos of this age, (which is not YHWH). But what I do see in addition to this, is theos and/or elohim being used qualitatively to describe angels and God’s council including men. I think it is presumptious to say that an angel is A god, but that they collectively are called elohim and theos. This is not something I made up, but is there in the scriptures for anyone to see.

    October 13, 2013 at 9:45 am#776867
    2besee
    Participant

    False teachings are misleading, only those who mislead believe they have the truth, as history shows.
    We have no need for a teacher, because the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL truth.

    October 13, 2013 at 9:51 am#776868
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:

    I sometimes wonder why people cannot just read the Bible and accept it. I am constantly amazed at how seldom people just read the Bible and say they accept it. It is really quite simple if one will just do that but most will say

    It says, “THE Word was with THE God”, but do you apply your quote to that particular text? And if so, please explain how that fits with your understanding.

    October 13, 2013 at 10:08 am#776869
    2besee
    Participant

    T8,

    Please stop thinking, and just allow God to teach you 😀

    People THINK too much about this.

    Just connect with God in spirit, is my last words for today!

    October 13, 2013 at 10:38 am#776870
    Admin
    Keymaster

    “The Word was theos.”
    Jesus said, “Ye are theos”.

    Same sentence construction, in that they both say theos without the article.

    So it does have something to do with John 1:1 in that if we understand how one can be used qualitatively, then it shows us how the other can be too.

    This was the point, nothing more, nothing less. Just a grammar exercise. So probably would be wise to check out the point before making criticism.

    🙂

    October 13, 2013 at 10:39 am#776871
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Right, so you have the truth and I do not because. Just because right?

    October 13, 2013 at 10:44 am#776872
    Admin
    Keymaster

    How do you know that I have not done that.

    I am guessing because I have not believed exactly as you have. This is how you judge. If it doesn’t line up with you, then it is not of the Holy Spirit. Reminds me of DavidL and he has a completely different view to you.

    This is why I bring scripture into it and test words to see if they were so. Believing that we have been revealed the truth even outside of scripture is dodgy.

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

    So let’s keep this on scripture and try to avoid judging others. I had to say the same thing to DavidL. Remember, we are all right in our own mind. This is why we need to turn to scripture to guide us.

    October 13, 2013 at 12:57 pm#776873
    Oneway
    Participant

    T8
    I apply my quote to everything in the Bible and I see no problem applying it to the scripture you reference. If there was a misunderstanding as to what I believe; I believe there is One God who is the Father and one Lord who is Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. While individual verses pulled out of context may make one consider the Trinity or even the Oneness doctrines; looking at all of the scripture as one book which explains itself can only lead to a belief in one true God who has a son named Jesus. Any other doctrine can only be held if scripture is twisted or “explained” in ways it was not written.

    October 13, 2013 at 3:58 pm#776874
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Amen t8.

    Even Trinitarian SCHOLARS can’t accurately explain this thing they’re asking their followers to believe. Even they say what David says: “You must be shown this truth by the Spirit”.

    Mystery Babylon anyone?

    October 13, 2013 at 5:58 pm#776875
    Becky
    Participant

    Wondering,

    I feels bad for you friend and that is an unfortunate thing to happen to her. But all christian denominations have congregations that differ from area to area. That is what happens when man decides to use his own opinion instead of what the bible teaches. I told you earlier that I am not a witness, which I am not, but I was raised as one and have to say that I think in someways you have been miss informed. I grew up with this type of prejudice and judgement. Did jesus really what us to treat people this way? All in the name of religion? That really doesn’t sound like the Jesus in read in the bible. As far as the Holy Spirit, I was taught that it is gods spirit, his active force. I thought this was a place for scriptural discussion, which is way I asked you to show me one. So now I ask you to show me a scripturaly were anyone has the right to judge who does and doesn’t have the Holy Spirit.

    October 13, 2013 at 8:37 pm#776876
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    🙂

    October 13, 2013 at 10:00 pm#776877
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky,

    I did not say they do not have the spirit of God. Show me where I said that.
    What I did say is that they DENY the spirit and the power of the spirit, which they do.

    The person of the Holy Spirit:
    The reason I said to google it, is because I only have a mobile, so my days of quoting large amount of scriptures have gone.

    But okay, try these verses for a starter.

    When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16

    He will speak, he will guide, he hears.

    God has revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, yes, the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God’s spirit. 1 Corinthians 2.

    The spirit searches the deep things of God, and reveals them.

    Where could I go from your Spirit? Or where could I flee from your presence? If I ascend up into heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, you are there!” Psalm 139.

    Who is where? God is there.
    The spirit of God is God’s presence.

    Is God a person?

    Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?……. the temple of God is
    holy, and that is what you are. 1 Corinthians 3.

    What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be
    their God, and they will be my people.” 2 Corinthians 6:16

    Who will live in them?
    Is that ‘who’ a person?

    Plenty more scriptures, but that’s a starter.

    As for my perhaps being misinformed regarding the JWs..
    JWs instructions to take antidepressants, etc was in their magazine which is world wide (you thought it may have been limited to a local district).
    Claiming that God does not heal anymore, etc, is also world wide.

    Those magazines as you would know, are what they have to believe in and obey.

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