Home Christian Writings What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine Page 43

What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.

Discussion

Viewing 18 posts - 841 through 858 (of 858 total)
123…414243
  • Author
    Posts
  • June 28, 2015 at 9:38 am#800322
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Why do you offer two deities and not three?

     

    June 28, 2015 at 10:17 am#800334
    DavidL
    Participant

    What are you talking about..?

     

    June 28, 2015 at 1:05 pm#800360
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Is a DEITY not a god?

    June 13, 2016 at 3:14 pm#814815
    hoghead1
    Participant

    The Trinity is, no doubt, one of the most problematic doctrines in Christendom.  Most of the Trinitarian formulations are extra-biblical in nature and involve concepts foreign to Scripture, such as “substance,” which was borrowed from Hellenic substance metaphysics.   The problem is that the Bible is not a book of metaphysics or systematic theology.  The Bible actually says very little about how God is built.  All we have are snap shots that often conflict.  In some passages Christ is identified with God, in others, no.   That’s why the fathers  looked to Hellenic metaphysics, to put together a systematic picture of God as he is in his own nature. The Bible presents a highly anthropomorphic picture of God, attributing emotion and also change to God.  The Greeks, however,  enshrined the immune and the immutable. Quite a contrast. The fathers went on Hellenic standards of perfection, which enshrined the immune and the immutable. God was defined as  a wholly simple, immutable, nonrelational being, a monad.  Then they turned around and tried to introduce the highly complex, relational machinery of the Trinity into this monad.  The result was confusion and contradiction. Si I firmly believe that if we are to make any real progress with the Trinity, we need to rethink our basic model of God.

    June 17, 2016 at 12:54 pm#814992
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Why do we need to make progress with the Trinity?

    At first there was one God. Then certain men crept in and changed God into a Binity. Some decades later, the Holy Spirit was added to complete the Trinity and men have been arguing over that since. Is this not foolish? Changing God into an idol or an image born from a mere human’s mind is not a good thing.

    God declares himself. The spirit of man cannot fathom God. Why even try? Just believe what God has revealed about himself. That is being led by God’s own spirit.

    These are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

    The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

    For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

    June 17, 2016 at 1:17 pm#814994
    hoghead1
    Participant

    That isn’t the way it happened, t8.  What did go down is that teh early fathers, working with Scripture, received, from the texts,  strong implications that there was a Trinity. The prologue to Jn. is one exam[le.  Also, Christ says, “I and the Father are one.”  At the same time, there were biblical passages that did seem to contradict the notion Christ was God, such as those stressing Christ’s subordinate statue to the Father. The problem was how to reconcile these.  Is the Divine that rules in Heaven identical with teh Divine that makes it’s presence felt on earth?  That was the big question. Largely, the Holy Spirit was ignored at first, as they were having too much trouble deciding about the Christ event and so had no time to discuss a more ubiquitous sense of God’s presence.   So, early Christians were often mocked for being “ditheists,” not tritheists.    Augustine himself said that very little had been written on the Spirit.  Gregory of Naizanzus said that there was great confusion over the Spirit, that some considered it God, others energy, and still others did not know what to think,” out of reverence to Scripture, which makes no clear statement.” Although Trinitarians are fond of saying the  Nicene Creed is one of the finest early affirmations of the Trinity, much depends on what version of the Creed you read.  The original only mentioned the Holy Spirit, said absolutely nothing about whether it was Deity or not.  The section we currently have on the Spirit was not added until around 500 AD.  While it implies the Spirit is Deity, it never comes out and says so, never says the Spirit is “very God of God, of one substance with the Father,” etc.   I hold the Spirit is God, in that he Bible early speaks of God’s Spirit, whereby God’s omnipresence is denoted.

    As a theologian, I have to do justice to both sides of teh equation.   I do so by acknowledging that the Trinity has always been a very complicated matter, that the Bible is ambiguous here.  Those who affirm the trinity have ample Scripture to back them, and those who deny the Trinity also find biblical passages to back their position. I think both sides get hung up  on the whole question of whether God is omnipresent, largely because both sides followed the dualistic, classical model of God.

    July 24, 2016 at 10:47 am#816175
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Hoghead,

    Yes men have wandered far into the marshes of confusion trying to understand God with their carnal minds.

    They pile insult upon insult to their Maker in doing so.

    Come out of her.

    August 5, 2016 at 2:57 pm#816563
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @hoghead1

    That isn’t the way it happened, t8. What did go down is that teh early fathers, working with Scripture, received, from the texts, strong implications that there was a Trinity.

    The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. Initially, both the requirements of monotheism inherited from the Hebrew Scriptures and the implications of the need to interpret the biblical teaching to Greco-Roman religions seemed to demand that the divine in Christ as the Word, or Logos, be interpreted as subordinate to the Supreme Being. An alternative solution was to interpret Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three modes of the self-disclosure of the one God but not as distinct within the being of God itself. The first tendency recognized the distinctness among the three, but at the cost of their equality and hence of their unity (subordinationism); the second came to terms with their unity, but at the cost of their distinctness as “persons” (modalism). It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.

    The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since. It is accepted in all of the historic confessions of Christianity,

    Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Trinity-Christianity

    December 28, 2017 at 7:03 am#820470
    Planks AndNails
    Participant

    Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” – John 20:28

    Thomas was affirming Christ’s earlier teaching to him that to see and believe in him was to see and believe in the Father. Christ declared and explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. He is the way to the Father and through him we know the Father. Christ explained that they saw the Father when they saw him because the Father abiding in him did the works.

    Since seeing Christ meant seeing the Father, Thomas said t, “My Lord and my God.” Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about.

    Christ made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares and explains the Father. For that reason, to see Christ is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ’s God. In the same way when other see Christ in us, it does not make us literally Christ, but rather Christ by the Holy Spirit working through us.

    Blessed are you Thomas. Because you have SEEN, you have believed. – John 20:29

    He who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me.

    He who sees me SEES Him who sent me. – John 12:44-45

    That is the meaning of, “My Lord and my God.”

     

    December 28, 2017 at 7:49 am#820471
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi P and N,

    You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    That is the confession of Peter and mine too.

     

    To understand the words of Thomas go to Jn 14.

    You see he was in the audience when the Lord said

    ”He who hs seen me has seen the Father…Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?”

    Compare 2Cor 5.19

    ”namely that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”

     

    Thomas listened well and he said when he saw Jesus.

    ”My Lord

    AND

    My God”

     

     

     

     

    December 28, 2017 at 8:35 am#820472
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Planks,

    Looks like you understand John 20:28 : )
    You are right, you must conflate
    what John said, with what
    Jesus said to Phillip.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    December 28, 2017 at 12:26 pm#820490
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Plankandnails. Thanks for your input on this subject. I tend to agree that two are being referred to. And that he is the image of the invisible God.

    December 28, 2017 at 5:16 pm#820499
    Mark Joseph
    Participant

    I feel sometimes God was talking thru His Son.  I don’t know what passages or book it was in. I’ll have to do some research.

    December 28, 2017 at 5:21 pm#820500
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Mark,

    Yes.

    Before Abraham I am.

    December 31, 2017 at 11:23 pm#820561
    Miia
    Participant

    January 1, 2018 at 1:13 pm#820569
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God speaks through his servants by inspiration. I don’t think he speaks through them in the same manner he used a donkey. The latter is a type of possession where God directly speaks. In the case of scripture and the disciples, you can see that the vessel is speaking as them, but the words are God’s will or message.

    January 1, 2018 at 9:57 pm#820576
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    So when Jesus spoke about rebuilding this temple in 3 days in Jn 2 were the words from him alone?

    The Spirit of the Father speaks through us when we are called in front of a judge he told us.

    January 3, 2018 at 5:56 pm#820618
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He will give us the words to speak. So we would likely say that God has said…. We wouldn’t say, I am God…

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