What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 241 through 260 (of 858 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #777018
    DavidL
    Participant

    t8 – I don’t have time for these games..you’ve basically railroaded this debate, which seems to suggest you got a little scared that the truth about the Trinity might break out into the daylight, for all to see..

    but in the end what you have done here seems quite fitting really because it highlights what you’ve done to Scripture – make changes to suit your own thinking, spread confusion over anything that is contrary to your own opinion…then call it ‘progress’..!!

    so I guess you win by default (hope that is some comfort to you)….

    Lastly I would say to those that seek truth…remember that the initial working of Satan is to bring doubt concerning the Scriptures, and then lead you to look and rely on your own understanding instead…(Genesis 3:1) This also is what is happening here on this site – instead of trusting that Scripture is true (Matthew 4:4), doubt is cast over it’s translation and we are directed towards philosophical thinking and carnal reasoning as a way of finding truth..when in fact you are being led away from truth and into the error of others who are deceived…

    TRUST THE SCRIPTURES COMPLETELY AND RELY ON THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GIVE YOU TRUE UNDERSTANDING

    #777019
    DavidL
    Participant

    If God is Triune (3 in 1) you’d think that man (made in His image) would be triune too (body, soul, spirit)..!! and also that Satan would have his own triune counterfeit – 666 (beast, false prophet, antichrist)..!! (?)

    The Trinity is self-evident IF you have eyes to see (born of the Spirit)..!!

    “A CORD OF THREE STRANDS IS NOT QUICKLY BROKEN” (Ecclesiastes 4:12)
    Why is UNITY and LOVE so important to God..!?
    I believe the nature of the Godhead is that of A LOVE-COVENANT (similar to marriage) …an Eternal binding promise (in the deepest possible sense) that CANNOT be broken.. 
    God is Three – yet He is ONE..!

    You can argue against doctrines all your life…until in the end your arguments become your god, and your deception real – yet it never changes the truth..but rather, only draws others into the darkness of your own delusions..!!!
     
     

    #777020
    DavidL
    Participant

    yet it never changes the truth..but rather, only draws others into the darkness of your own delusions..!!!

    #777021
    DavidL
    Participant

    You can argue against doctrines all your life…until in the end your arguments become your god, and your deception real

    #777022
    DavidL
    Participant

    trust the Scriptures completely (like Jesus) and rely on the Holy Spirit to give you true understanding (revelation)..

    #777023
    DavidL
    Participant

    and then lead you to look and rely on your own understanding instead..

    #777024
    DavidL
    Participant

    to those that seek truth…remember that the initial working of Satan is to bring doubt concerning the Scriptures

    #777025
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Hi David. I have heard this threat many times on this site, where people say they are going to leave, but just can’t help themselves by coming back. I think this is because people generally know deep down that they haven’t proved their Trinity Doctrine and come back to try and close the case once and for all. But it never happens because they have no scriptures that teach the Trinity and when they realise that, it is then that they leave and a new Trinitarian turns up with all the same ice-liquid-gas arguments. Never mind that there is a fourth property of water, called plasma.

    #777026
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:

    If God is Triune (3 in 1) you’d think that man (made in His image) would be triune too (body, soul, spirit)..!! and also that Satan would have his own triune counterfeit – 666 (beast, false prophet, antichrist)..!! (?)

    Oh the Satanic Trinity argument. Well have you heard of the two last day prophets? Is that a Trinity too. God and the two prophets as being similar to Satan and his two men?

    You are clutching at straws with your argument here. 

    #777027
    Admin
    Keymaster

    The Trinity Doctrine should not be anyone’s God. Yet it overrides the words of Jesus, Peter, and Paul. So the truth that the Father reveals about Jesus is changed by the addition of a third-century doctrine. Why preach that doctrine, for you do so in vain.

    We teach that there is one God the Father and that he is the only true God. We teach that Jesus is the son of the one true God and was made messiah and lord by the one true God and for this you oppose us.

    Do we not present you with a better way? That way is clearly shown in scripture. But just as they persecuted the prophets of old and Jesus too, so they will us. 

    You see, for ‘US’ there is one God the Father. We are that ‘US’ because it is ‘US’ that truly believe that there is one God the Father.

    #777028
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Scripture is not darkness. His word is a light unto our feet.

    Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”.

    #777029
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Okay, after a short trial I have settled on bringing back the replies but one level deep. 

    I believe this is best because you can read the conversations as it takes place.

    I only ask that we do not make too many replies to a particular post because it gets too hard to find the reply link and the page becomes too long. Instead restart the conversation at the top of the comments when that happens.

    🙂

    #777030
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Scripture says that the Father is the one true God and he made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

    Trust that then if you trust scripture.

    Or do the creeds of men take precedent?

    #777031
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi All,
     
    I’m going to bail from this part of t8’s site.  I’ve been used to the forum part for 4 years, and frankly, it is very hard for me to follow a single discussion in this format.  I understand that you guys are used to this format and prefer it – so since I’m the newcomer, what right have I to suggest a change?
     
    T8 says that eventually, he’ll meld the two parts of the site together.  So maybe I’ll talk to you more at that time.
     
    As far as the Trinity Doctrine goes, we just need to ask ourselves some very simple questions:
    Is Jesus the Most High God?  Or the Son, Servant, Prophet, Priest, Messiah, and sacrificial Lamb OF that One?
    Is Jesus God?  Or the one God raised from the dead and exalted?
    Is Jesus God?  Or the one who sits at God’s right hand?
    Is Jesus God?  Or the one who was sent by God?
    Is Jesus God?  Or the one who will eventually turn the reign of the Kingdom back over to God?
    Is Jesus God?  Or the one God made both Lord and King?
     
    I could go on and on and on……… but these are more than enough for anybody with a brain to know that Jesus is someone other than God.  And Jehovah is the one who gave us those brains – and logic – and common sense.  Becky said it well in one of her recent posts.  She will use her GOD-GIVEN brains and logic and common sense to test the spirits, and see which ones are telling us the truth.  I will continue to do the same.  And the only thing we have to test those spirits against is the Holy Scriptures.  So if the Holy Scriptures repeatedly tell us common sense things like “Jesus is the SON OF the one and only Most High God who created all things”, don’t we owe it to ourselves to USE that common sense and logic that our Creator gave us to understand what is meant by that teaching?
     
    To throw that common sense out a window and believe asinine things like the Son of God can BE the very God he is the Son of would be a slap in the face of the God who GAVE us that common sense in the first place, IMO. 
     
    You all do what you want.  I will continue to believe that we have but one God, the Father, and Jesus is His Son, Servant, Priest, Mediator, Prophet, Anointed One, and Sacrificial Lamb.
     
    peace to all,
    mike

    #777032
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Oh, and one more thing for David.  You can’t sensibly use the “spirit, soul, body” comparison to support the Trinity Doctrine unless each of those components is an actual PERSON with his own mind, will, thoughts, etc.
     
    Because Jesus had a DIFFERENT will than his God, but chose to do God’s will instead of his own.  That makes them two different persons – each with their own mind, will, heart, etc.  And you can’t say the same about our spirits, souls, and bodies.
     
    So the comparison falls flat.

    #777033
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    That is true,but what is also true is that we can also put doubt into what ever we understand to be true or false because it would be our own determination to make the verdict on it,
    So the question would be how do we recognize the godly truth ??? Without a doubt

    #777034
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Cheers Mike. I totally agree and appreciate the input you have put here. See you in the forums. 🙂

    #777035
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Good point Mike. Its easy to take any other instance of three and try and make it prove that God is also three. But a Binitarian could do the same with two such as Adam and Eve being one flesh. However, they remain two beings. And we know that God is one being. And this is truly important. 

    There is one God the Father. He is the true God and the one who made his son Jesus, both Lord and Christ. 

    #777036
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Good point terraricca. This is partly why God gave us scripture. And yet men ignore that when it is convenient for them to do so. But a man after God’s heart would surely be a pupil of scripture and would let it rebuke him, correct him, and approve him. But many do not allow scripture to do that because they don’t want to change.

    #777037
    Admin
    Keymaster

    This is not my understanding it is Jesus understanding.

    “This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.”

    I didn’t make that up. Jesus understanding here is clear. The question is, if you are a sheep as you claim, then do you hear his voice? Remember he said that this was eternal life and that his sheep hear his voice. I hear his voice here loud and clear. He is saying that the only true God is the Father, but you seem to disagree with him.

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