Home Christian Writings What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine Page 12

What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 221 through 240 (of 858 total)
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  • October 19, 2013 at 5:05 pm#776998
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    David said, “If this interpretation is true (as you imply by your defense of NWT) then HOW did He exist WITH God – as ‘a god’…(if there is only One God)???
    What are YOU actually saying is the truth here…???”………………

    First of all, I didn’t use the NWT as my defense of the “a god” translation of John 1:1. I used information from 25 TRINITARIAN scholars. There are other scholars I could also use as support – both Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian.

    And the FACT will always remain that, GRAMMATICALLY SPEAKING, “A god” is just as faithful a translation as “THE god”. And I will even offer that the first language into which the NT was translated – that uses an indefinite article – was the Egyptian Coptic language. And in the Coptic translation, 1:1 says, “and the Word was a god”. This was circa 2nd century A.D. What that means is that the first time in history that it was linguistically possible to translate 1:1c as “the Word was a god” – that’s exactly how it was translated.

    Also, there have been DOZENS of translations through the years that have “the Word was a god”, or “the Word was divine”, etc.

    I only mention these things to remove the focus of this discussion from the Trinitarians’ hatred of the JWs, and focus it more on the TRUTH that “a god” is indeed a valid way of translating John 1:1c.

    As for your point, we must only answer one question: Does the Bible LITERALLY speak of only ONE god? Or does it teach that “there are many gods and many lords, in heaven and on earth” – and only one MOST HIGH God Jehovah? The latter is the truth of scripture, as attested simply by the fact that Jehovah couldn’t possibly be the God OF gods if there existed no other gods for Him to be the God OF. I am willing to discuss the many other gods in scripture – if you are interested.

    Also, know that both the Hebrew word “malawk” and the Greek word “aggelos” both simply mean “messenger”. If the English translator determines that the “messenger” in question is a spirit being, he translates with the English word “angel”. And, according to Revelation 1:1, Jesus is a spirit being who is sent to deliver the word of his own God Jehovah to others. “Spirit messenger of God” = “angel of God”.

    So, what would you like to discuss? The fact that there are many gods, in heaven and on earth – with Jehovah being the MOST HIGH of them all? Or the fact that Jesus, the servant of our God, remains to this very day a prophet and angel (spirit messenger) of his and our God?

    I believe either discussion deserves a thread of its own.

    October 19, 2013 at 5:12 pm#776999
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Good post, Oneway. Well said.

    October 19, 2013 at 5:14 pm#777000
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    “I read that quote from Jesus in a book called the Bible and I am not about to put that away.”

    Amen, t8.

    October 19, 2013 at 5:20 pm#777001
    DavidL
    Participant

    You say that belief in the Trinity contradicts Scripture…if this is true, then WHY is John 1:1 such a problem to you guys..? The answer is because it’s a Scripture that very directly SUPPORTS the Trinity..!!
    –
    And does the rest of Scripture support John 1:1 ? – I believe it clearly does in many places, including Jesus’ own words, and have given verses to show this…
    –
    I said that your logic contradicts belief…because you rely on your own intellectual abilities (instead of the Spirit) to understand spiritual things – but in doing so you only align yourself with the practice of the Scribes and Pharisees…that where nothing but blind guides who in practice opposed the very thing they professed to believe…
    –
    I’m saying that your logic contradicts true faith !

    October 19, 2013 at 5:49 pm#777002
    DavidL
    Participant

    You say that our Father and our God is also Jesus’ Father and His God..that we are BROTHERS to Jesus, and SONS to God..
    –
    but how does this verse you quote relate to what Jesus said in John 10:34…”Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”‘ ??
    –
    how can we be sons of God, and yet according to Scripture – gods as well..!!??
    –
    Could it be true after all – “..the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God” !!

    October 19, 2013 at 10:02 pm#777003
    DavidL
    Participant

    again – you say it doesn’t make sense to call Jesus God if He Himself called the Father “..My God and your God.”
    –
    But in considering this apparent anomaly you must remember to take into account David’s prophetic utterance of the Messiah in Psalm 45, where (v 6) it is spoken of Christ, “Your throne, *O God,* is forever and ever;” and in verse 7, “Therefore God, *YOUR GOD,* has anointed You..”
    –
    Here we find that Jesus is spoken of as ‘God’ – and the Father as ‘Your God.’ which of course is all confirmed to us in Hebrews 1:9…and again, makes perfect sense of John 1:1.

    October 19, 2013 at 10:57 pm#777004
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Mike, I am glad that you are asking this conversation to be shifted away from hatred of JWs which exists to looking at the scripture. 🙂

    We can only show people the scripture and it is up to them to accept or reject. But we can’t force anyone to love other people. That is up to each individual before God.

    We defend John 1:1c not because it is written in a JW bible or other bibles, but because it is a sound principle to look at the other possibilities when there is no article before ‘theos’.

    In other words, we don’t want to discuss politics regarding denominations because we are beyond such things, but are only interested in defending the truth because truth comes from God.

    October 19, 2013 at 11:26 pm#777005
    DavidL
    Participant

    I believe the translation we have of John 1:1 is true – that Jesus existed in the beginning with God, as God…and I will contend for this on the ground that it is confirmed to us throughout the Scriptures, and secondly that you people who attack the doctrine of the Trinity actually undermine the faith and trust that we, as disciples of Christ, put in the Bible as the inspired Word of God – I believe Scripture is still completely dependable today (and not corrupted by the translators – as you imply by your completely different ‘anti-Trinity’ rendering of the first verse of John)..
    –
    This is my position…and from your last post I have to assume that the translation you accept and believe is true (grammatically speaking OR NOT) is, “..the word was with God, and the Word was a god.”..!??
    –
    BTW no one is expressing hatred for JW’s – only acknowledging the FACT that they are a religious cult.. (and…interestingly, not the only cult to deny the Trinity..!!)

    October 19, 2013 at 11:59 pm#777006
    Becky
    Participant

    David,
    Fact? Really look up the word cult because every religion can be considered a cult. I often wonder why people who claim to live there life for God feel they have the right to spew such words to and about people and other religions.

    October 20, 2013 at 1:04 am#777007
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote t8 “Mike, I am glad that you are asking this conversation to be shifted away from hatred of JWs which exists to looking at
    the scripture.
    We can only show people the scripture and it is up to them to accept or reject.
    But we can’t force anyone to love other people.” Unquote.

    Why do you say “hatred towards other people”? Dislike of a particular doctrine is more like it. You are quite dramatic.

    Your claim that people criticize you when they have been ‘clearly refuted’ (in your words) is weak and meaningless – because you know that those who hold to your doctrine, or similar, are much more critical… even abusive… (in your forum).
    Depends on who is doing the criticizing, right?

    Okay, so let’s get back to talking scripture, as you say.
    Why?
    Why, when you – or is it Mike – simply need to defend the JW doctrines, despite what has been shown?

    October 20, 2013 at 3:33 am#777008
    Admin
    Keymaster

    The Trinity denominations are cults too, by the same definition.
    They too have a set of beliefs that are extra-biblical and are kingdoms unto themselves complete with CEOs, accountants, advertising managers etc. But the real Church is the Body of Christ. Its foundation is the truth that Jesus Christ is the son of the living God and the Christ. I choose to belong here.

    And does the wife and man become a/the man? Yet you try in vain to say that God and Jesus are God. You speak in babble.

    God and Jesus is God and Jesus, that is why it says God and Jesus. And elsewhere, God and his son is God and his son. Yet somehow in your equation and formula, Jesus disappears into God, yet scripture says God and Jesus. Think about what the Bible means when it says God and Jesus. It truly just means what it says. Why change this truth for a lie?

    Further, this same oneness that God and Jesus have that to you mind proves that they are the same being or substance, is also extended to us too. Jesus prayed that we would be one with each other and one with them. So get ready or the Millionity or Billionity depending on how many are saved and become one with God and Jesus.

    You use all the classic arguments for the Trinity, but none of them hold water.

    And your statement, “I’m saying that your logic contradicts true faith !”, should be worded, “I’m saying that your logic contradicts MY faith!, (as in your faith)” Because eternal life is to believe in the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he (the one true God) has sent. I stand with Jesus on this. You do not.

    October 20, 2013 at 4:32 pm#777009
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi Wondering,
     
    You said:
     
    ”
    So then:
    According to Mike and his scholars:
    God is not love, God is not light, because God cannot be something that he is with (possesses).
    That’s quite a profound statement, Mike.
    God is not light, God is not logos, God is not love…. Because he cannot possibly be something he possesses…. Hm..
    Mike, I believe I have just proven your common sense to be faulty!
    Interesting.”
     
    Not unless you consider “Light” or “Love” to be the God who created you.  Do you?  Do you bow down and worship “Light”?  Do you worship and serve only “Love” as your God?
     
    On the other hand, we all realize that “the Word of God” is a sentient being with a mind, heart, soul, and will of his own.  The Word is Jesus Christ, God’s Son, right?
     
    So while we could poetically say, “Kindness dwells with God, for God IS kindness”, we CAN’T say, “Abraham was with God, and Abraham was God”.  Because if we are talking about sentient entities, one can be with another.  But the one entity who is with the other entity cannot also BE the entity he is WITH. 
     
    Now when the Trinitarian translations say “the Word was with God, and the Word was God” – does the word “God” mean the same thing both times?
     
     

    October 20, 2013 at 4:54 pm#777010
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    David said:  “but how does this verse you quote relate to what Jesus said in John 10:34…”Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”‘ ??
    –
    how can we be sons of God, and yet according to Scripture – gods as well..!!??”
     
    In 10:34, Jesus is addressing the accusation that he has made himself out to be a god (not “God”).  And Jesus is quoting Psalm 82 to address that accusation.  And Psalm 82 describes how God congregates with the other gods (His spirit sons) that He set up as “overseers” of the human nations.  Jehovah renders judgment upon these other gods because of the way they’ve screwed things up.  Instead of watching over the nations of the earth, and leading them to the Most High God, they sought to be worshipped as the gods of those nations.  And they really mucked things up, instead of ruling righteously under their own God, Jehovah.  Then Jehovah condemns them to death, saying, “Although I’ve called you gods, you will end up dying like men”.
     

     

     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

    October 20, 2013 at 5:00 pm#777011
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Continued……….. since for some reason, all of what I wrote didn’t post.  ???
     
    So in John 10:34, Jesus’ point was:  “If Jehovah called these lesser spirit sons ‘gods’, then what about the FIRSTBORN spirit Son who is higher than all the rest of them?  Why not the only spirit son that Jehovah set apart as His very own and sent into the world?”
     
    The teaching has nothing to do with men being called gods, nor with us ever becoming gods.

    October 20, 2013 at 11:59 pm#777012
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    David said: But in considering this apparent anomaly you must remember to take into account David’s prophetic utterance of the Messiah in Psalm 45, where (v 6) it is spoken of Christ, “Your throne, *O God,* is forever and ever;” and in verse 7, “Therefore God, *YOUR GOD,* has anointed You..”
     
     
    Yes, Jesus is called “god” in at least 5 scriptures.  Other angels (spirit messengers) of God are also called gods in scriptures.  The point to remember is that while Jesus IS called a god in Psalm 45/Hebrews 1, it is clear that he also has a God of his own……….. as you yourself have pointed out with capital letters. And since the Most High God is the only god who doesn’t have a god of His own, it should be clear that Jesus cannot possibly BE the Most High God.

    October 21, 2013 at 12:11 am#777013
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    David said: This is my position…and from your last post I have to assume that the translation you accept and believe is true (grammatically speaking OR NOT) is, “..the word was with God, and the Word was a god.”..!??
    –
    BTW no one is expressing hatred for JW’s – only acknowledging the FACT that they are a religious cult.. (and…interestingly, not the only cult to deny the Trinity..!!)
     
    Yes David, I believe John was saying that Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.  And the JWs aren’t a “cult” anymore than the Catholics are a “cult”.  Are you saying that any group who doesn’t believe in the Trinity is a “cult”?  🙂  Whatever.  The point is that I am not a JW, and the NWT is not the only Bible I use.  So let’s just deal with the fact that even TRINITARIAN scholars acknowledge that “a god” is a grammatically acceptable translation of 1:1c – and leave the JWs and the NWT out of the conversation altogether, okay?
     
    As for your accusation that I’M the one “changing” John’s words, let me remind you once again that the first time any language made it possible to translate either as “THE god” or “A god”, they chose “A god”.  So in reality, “THE God” is the alteration.  The NWT merely translates it the same way it was translated the very first time an indefinite article was available.

    October 22, 2013 at 6:22 pm#777014
    DavidL
    Participant

    let me know when you’ve fixed your site..
     

    October 22, 2013 at 6:53 pm#777015
    DavidL
    Participant

    t8 – I see you have altered the format here where we are debating – now the thread of each argument is lost.. 

    October 22, 2013 at 9:40 pm#777016
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Yes David, I was getting feedback that it was hard to follow and find the right place to reply. So I decided to make it more like the forum where the latest post floats to the top (like Youtube). Unfortunately it does put some posts out of context as they relied on the parent post. But going forward it should be good as you can just copy the relevant part of the post you are replying to and make it italic to stand out.

    If this doesn’t work out, I can change it back to how it was.

    Your feedback will be taken into consideration along with others. At the end of the day, I will stick to what most prefer.

    🙂

     

    October 22, 2013 at 9:44 pm#777017
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Should be working David, but I know there is an issue with not being taken to the right page after posting. If you get emails when someone has replied, make sure to click the link called Permalink and you will be taken to the exact place. And if you click the heading on the page, you will be taken to the right page where the last post is.

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