What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 201 through 220 (of 858 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #776978
    Becky
    Participant

    God gave me a brain for a reason. And with that brain I fully intend to test all spirits to make sure they come from God. If that is logic then I thank God that he gave it to me. Since we have our brains shouldn’t we then look as close as we can at the few things in the bible that might come not as straight forward. Since one of the gods in John 1:1 is accusative and one is nominative it makes person think.

    #776979
    Admin
    Keymaster

    When you make statements that are incorrect, I will refute them with scripture and make no apology. I am not defending the NWT because all translations have their problems, some more than others. To me, defending a translation is not nearly as important as defending the truth. People do not get saved or further their spiritual understanding of things by defending the efforts of men. Of course translations are an important resource for us to understand scripture, but that is all they are.

    #776980
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Discussing our personal relationship with God and defending the truth in scripture are two different things. Ideally, we have both. They do not mutually exclude each other.

    Yes I still hear from God and have some powerful visions since.

    Even prophecies that have come true. And they have everything to do with what I am doing now.

    God will bless those who seek the truth. We are promised that if we seek we will find and that the truth sets us free.

    #776981
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You are wrong DavidL. It doesn’t.

    Further, the rest of scripture teaches that the true God is the Father, and Jesus is the one who the true God made Lord and Christ.

    It is clear for all to see, that your interpretation of John 1:1 negates the rest of the Bible with regards to who the one true God is. You are clearly confused and demonstrate this publicly.

    And you haven’t even attempted to show us how Jesus can be God, the son of God, made Lord by God, and who acknowledges that the Father is greater than him and who sits at the right hand of the only true God. In other words even now, he is WITH God, just as the Word was with God.

    If you were with God DavidL, then could you also be God?

    You are trying to sell me confusion. I will not buy the wares of Babel and Babylon. Instead I will buy the truth that is gold. Not interested in counterfeits. There is one God the Father. It is not even a debate. Unless you want to debate Paul, which you are doing.

    #776982
    2besee
    Participant

    Mike,

    You seem to be misunderstanding what is meant by the reading of books, it has nothing to do with the scriptures. God reveals things to us by the scriptures, but we do not rely on our own understanding. We do not rely on men. We trust in him, we trust in God, and God will show us all things.

    “First of all you must understand
    this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved
    by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

    “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak.”

    “This is the one who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the
    truth.”

    “For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.”

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
    and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish,
    and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
    and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
    I and the Father are one.”

    #776983
    Becky
    Participant

    Wondering,

    My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all

    Ok now take the appositive out and it say My father is greater than all. Wouldn’t that include Jesus.

    I and the father are one.

    I and my husband are one. But I am not my husband and my husband is not me.

    #776984
    Becky
    Participant

    I mean greater than Jesus.

    #776985
    2besee
    Participant

    .Becky,
    Yes I agree.
    I’m a spirit christologist.
    I don’t believe the son of man was God, but man.
    The Holy Spirit and God are one though.

    #776986
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky,
    Addendum:

    God through the eternal spirit spoke through the mouth of the son of man and worked through his body, so in this way they were as one, the son of God.

    That is the way I see, though I am only learning.

    #776987
    Becky
    Participant

    Wondering,

    Sorry my bad. I did try looking up christology but couldn’t get any info on what was believe since there seem to be different types or maybe it is just broken into two parts. As for the Holy Spirit not sure if I want to or even how to define it. All I know is what I have read in the bible so far and that is it is gods spirit or active force. It is obviously an extension of of god but I don’t know if I would say the Holy Spirit is god. On that I probably need to take a closer look at the scriptures. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    #776988
    DavidL
    Participant

    when I talk of ‘logic’ I am wanting to make a distinction between head knowledge and heart understanding…sure God has given us a brain but human understanding alone cannot comprehend the things of God..(1 Corinthians 2:14)

    When Jesus said to Nicodemus, “You must be born again..” I believe He was highlighting to this teacher in Israel the inability of man to comprehend the truth of God merely on the strength of his own intellectual and logical abilities…something MORE was needed..!!

    Again, consider the life of Paul, who before his encounter and conversion on the Damascus road, was highly educated in the doctrine of Scripture – a Pharisee of Pharisees who in his heart thought he was righteously upholding the law of God, when in reality he was opposing and persecuting the very God he claimed to serve and follow..

    Michael Wells (a Christian author) said, “The church is cluttered with shipwrecked scholars who thought the Bible was for understanding and did not recognize it was written to give life.”

    I believe that Theology itself opposes the Truth, the same way the Pharisees and doctors of the law opposed Christ – we ARE meant to have understanding…but it is HEART understanding that brings TRUE life and TRUE light..

    as disciples of Christ we are to gain our understanding not through intellectual pursuit, but from listening to the voice of the Spirit – revelation comes to us when we read Scripture with a listening heart…and this is in stark contrast and opposition to the teachings and logical thoughts of ‘man’.

    #776989
    DavidL
    Participant

    The true Church is NOT established on the doctrines and intellectual teachings of ‘man’ – Jesus said, “on this rock *I* will build My church…!!! The foundation of truth is established solely on the unshakable rock of divine revelation – the revelation of Jesus Christ, as revealed in the Word of God, by the Father, through the Holy Spirit.

    #776990
    DavidL
    Participant

    “..the Word was with God…the Word was God.” – does this simple revelation of Jesus really contradict the rest of Scripture..(like t8 would have us believe)..???

    Let’s see – “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..'” (Genesis 1:26)..
    Funny, if God is Triune, and we are made in His image – wouldn’t it make sense that we would be triune too (Body, Soul, and Spirit)..!!!

    “For in Christ dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” (Colossians 2:9)

    Jesus told them, “Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, before there was an Abraham, I AM!” – John 8:58

    Jesus speaking, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” – Revelation 1:8

    It’s truly amazing how spiritually blind man’s Theology is, and will try to make us too – IF WE LET IT..!!

    #776991
    DavidL
    Participant

    “..the Word was with God…and the Word was God.” – is this somehow my own ‘interpretation’ rather than simply what the Bible itself says in black and white..and does it really negate the rest of Scripture..(like t8 would have us believe)..???

    Let’s see – “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..’” (Genesis 1:26)..
    Funny, if God is Triune, and we are made in His image – wouldn’t it make sense that we would be triune too (Body, Soul, and Spirit)..!!!

    “For in Christ dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” (Colossians 2:9)

    Jesus told them, “Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, before there was an Abraham, I AM!” – John 8:58

    Jesus speaking, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” – Revelation 1:8

    It’s truly amazing how spiritually blind the teaching of man is, and will try to make us too – IF WE LET IT..!!

    #776992
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky, sorry, I’ve been too tired to post the last couple days, and my two posts were made with a tired mind. So when I’m more alert, I’ll post more.

    #776993
    DavidL
    Participant

    The Scriptures you offer as proof against the Trinity ARE actually verses that help us to understand the Trinity..!!! unfortunately this is how blind human logic is with regard to spiritual understanding..

    Paul uses the example of marriage – how the man is head of the wife, to show that Christ is Head of the Church, and God the Head of Christ…but what you fail to take into account is the fact that even though the husband is head over the wife, Scripture tells us that, within the covenant of marriage, the TWO (husband and wife) become ONE..!!!

    Please remember that when you point out Scriptures that show God and Christ in their different roles…IT DOES NOT NEGATE OR CHANGE THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY IN ANY WAY…!!! rather it just reveals that your understanding of God has not been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

    #776994
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky,
    My thoughts for today:

    I really do not believe that any man should be a teacher to a called out person.
    Why I say “called out person” is because I think there is a place for teachers, and that is with the foundation.
    So, we have Sunday school teachers, teaching children, or people teaching the new seekers to truth, and that is good.
    But then, one day God may call some of them to his own guidance and leading, and the Holy Spirit should be that persons teacher( Do you see what I mean?)
    I think the moment one does things such as spend their time on forums trying to lead those who have been called, trying to lead them into their own doctrine, then that man or woman is possibly attempting to take the place of the Holy Spirit!
    And you can see it by it’s fruit.
    On forums, what are it’s fruit? Debating, arguments, judging, jealousy, one-upmanship… Sin. Division. Bitterness. Boasting. And from what I have witnessed, lost faith.

    I believe that someone who is called has no need for mans doctrines, no need for a church (building) today, though once upon a time, it was okay, no doubt.

    Sorry..
    as for my belief, I only have the basics, and have not been shown more. Anything I add to it is – I believe, only my own mind. And I do not want to teach you, or anyone. But if the foundational teachings have been faulty, then maybe it could help someone, I don’t know.

    So the basics:
    I asked who Jesus was and I heard “The Holy Spirit”.

    Some time after my Trinitarian Dad was giving me a sermon (as he does!), and through all of his sermon, one thing really stuck out to me. When asked who Jesus was, he said that Jesus was the “eternal spirit”. I don’t even know if he realized what he said : because I don’t think that is a typical reply for a Trinitarian?

    I was shown these verses by God over some days..

    Hebrews 9:14 ESV
    How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
    offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

    Corinthians 2:11 ESV
    For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God
    except the Spirit of God.

    Matthew 11:27 ESV
    No one knows the Son except the
    Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    That is my basics.

    I found more verses, and one thing led to another, but I think I’ve gone off track a bit, because I started reading other things, and talking to people on forums.

    I encourage you, though, Becky, to take your time – and only seek God’s truth, not man.

    Also, make sure you have a good translation. RSV is a good one. I say that because a good elderly man gave us an RSV years ago, and I believe it was supposed to be.

    #776995
    Becky
    Participant

    Wondering,

    I have to disagree that people should not teach. 2 Timothy 3:16 states: All scripture is breathed out by God and probitiable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training righteousness. I do not claim to be a teacher nor do I know if I will ever be. I come to forums to try to get an understanding of why people believe what they do and hope that they share scriptures to support that belief. Then I enjoy looking up those scriptures to see if I get the same understanding.

    #776996
    2besee
    Participant

    Becky,

    Children need teaching.

    “Direct your children onto the right path, and when they are older, they will not leave it.”

    Adults led by the spirit do not.

    1 John 2:27 “As for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you do not need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, you will remain in him.”

    People think they gain all truth from studying scriptures, but they do not.
    Truth is found when we GO TO GOD.
    We need to connect with God in Spirit, alone on our knees.
    When we do, if we listen to him, we can hear. We do not hear him with our ears, we hear him ‘within and above us’, and he alone will guide you.

    The letter (Mike) kills – it is the spirit that gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6)

    John 5:39 “You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men”

    As for forums : They are too full of those “teachers” – and they all teach different things, and errors.

    “Babylon”.

    #776997
    2besee
    Participant

    I mean I’m just learning.

    Something is not right about my post to you the other day…

    (The one about the oneness).

    Jesus said he and his Father are one.

    I’m going to pray about that.

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