What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 181 through 200 (of 858 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #776958
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Yes it amazes me when we are told to not take scripture so seriously. I mean what?

    #776959
    Oneway
    Participant

    The problem does not come from saying Jesus is Lord; but from saying he is God. In John 13:13-16 Jesus himself claims to be both master and Lord but goes on to teach that the servant is not greater than his lord and the one sent is not greater than the one who was sent.

    There is no agreement between Trinitarian teachers on even what the term means. DavidL uses Jesus saying Before Abraham was I AM to teach that Jesus is God but that would be teaching that Jesus is Jehovah which would not mean three persons who make up one God but One God who makes up three persons which is modalism.

    One must also ask to whom does one pray and to whom is our worship given. Jesus himself taught in John 16:23-28 that after his death and resurrection we would no longer ask him anything but rather would ask the Father in the name of Jesus. In Revelation 19:10 John was told to worship God for the testimony of Jesus Christ. We pray to the Father and we worship the Father. Belief in a separate Father and Son and Holy Ghost does not make one a Trinitarian; but a believer in scripture. Believing they are all One in substance makes one a Trinitarian.

    So the answer to the question what Christian opposes that Jesus is the Son of God would be that in one way none do. The opposition comes from those who are not satisfied with what is in the scripture and want to make more of it than is there. They will claim heresy on the part of one who simply believes Jesus is the Son of God and Lord of our lives and do not make the leap to him also being God. In my opinion; what is expressly written in scripture should be enough.

    #776960
    DavidL
    Participant

    Please let Mike answer his own questions – he’s the one defending NWT..

    #776961
    DavidL
    Participant

    Jesus is God – John 1:1 declares it..!!

    you quote outside of Scripture to deny what Scripture says, then have the audacity to say that what you believe is Scriptural..?!

    #776962
    DavidL
    Participant

    To deny the Holy Spirit over your so-called ‘common sense’ is the reason why we have so much confusion today..!!

    If the Word is Holy Spirit ‘inspired’ then it should make ‘sense’ to trust the Holy Spirit for our understanding of it..

    When John said to Test the spirits he didn’t say ‘test the doctrine’ (that’s all the Pharisees did) – to test the spirits is in itself a spiritual exercise…

    #776963
    DavidL
    Participant

    …something that is spiritually discerned…

    “The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned ONLY through the Spirit.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14

    #776964
    DavidL
    Participant

    A wake up call..?? Huh – you are so presumptuous..!! I woke up along time ago to the doctrines and creeds of man – which is EXACTLY why I don’t accept YOUR teachings…you just present to us more theological rubbish…!!!

    #776965
    DavidL
    Participant

    I trust in the Word of God – you say you do too, but the evidence you present shows that you put a lot of credence in the philosophical thinking of scientific men..which then allows you to start dissecting the Scriptures to suit your own preconceived ideas of what you think they should say (the same error as the cults – and the reason they ARE cults…they deny the authority, and usurp the work of the Holy Spirit)..

    #776966
    DavidL
    Participant

    Yes – ‘moronic’ to all you high-minded know-it-alls…but in despising this you only confirm the truth of it more, because God has chosen what is foolish to the world to shame human wisdom…

    unfortunately by your own perceived intellect (like the learned Pharisees of old), you too have become blinded to the simple realities revealed in God’s Word..truths that are easily accepted by those whose child-like faith enables them to simply trust and depend on God alone for guidance and understanding..

    #776967
    DavidL
    Participant

    that was all wondering said to me t8…

    you say Scripture is my witness – but you are like a blind man saying, I can see..!!!

    #776968
    Admin
    Keymaster

    David, after a quick skip through your latest posts, I can see that all you actually have are opinions mixed with passion, but no substance to what you say.

    A person serious about the truth and what scripture says, needs more than that. Anyone can spout opinions, but reasoning from the scriptures and rightly dividing the word of God takes more than opinion.

    Personally I think you are way out of your depth here, and while people are allowed opinions, they shouldn’t teach them as truth, but should rely on scripture.

    The Dark Ages was a time when men had so-called truth which was really opinion and superstition, and heaps of passion. The result was one of the greatest persecutions against the saints. Millions were killed for not adhering to the creeds of Rome and superstitions of men.

    The truth never bears this kind of fruit and the fruit we see from this type of thing is the worse fruit you can imagine. But know this, bad fruit suggests a bad root. But the truth will set you free. Jesus places no heavy burden on you, his yoke is easy and light. Simplicity in Christ is a child-like faith in him. But once you start preaching a meta-physical gospel, then all that simplicity is gone.

    #776969
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I think it would be true to say that if one had the Spirit of God, then they would believe and trust in Jesus’s following words:

    “This is eternal life, that you may know the one true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent.”

    Eternal life is important to me as it is for you, and I trust these words of my saviour. So why argue against this? What profit do you expect to receive. My argue against eternal life, if this is eternal life?

    Further, if John 1:1 is your cornerstone verse for the Trinity, then it is inadequate for the following reasons.

    1) THE Word was theos has three possible ways to be translated.
    2) The so-called third member of the Trinity isn’t mentioned, thus this so-called Trinity verse at best (for you) teaches a Binity.
    3) The Word was WITH God means what it says. It doesn’t say that the Word was WITH the Father, but God. Thus a simple read of the text demonstrates that God is the Father in John 1:1. So the Word was THE God translation is clearly not the right option. And for other reasons it is not either. The Word was divine or qualitatively God is a better option and it answers to the verse that says, “although he existed in the FORM of God…”

    But because of your biased option, I can see clearly the contradiction you have. Maybe you cannot see it, but as I said before, I believe you are out of your depth in this discussion.

    #776970
    DavidL
    Participant

    ok – rather than getting into a boring debate over Greek grammar…(even though translators who have a mastery of koinie Greek state that there are many scholarly works that can be cited to show why the phrase Theos en ho logos is correctly translated “The Word was God”) but – let’s say, for arguments sake (and remember we are wanting to distinguish between ‘argument’ and ‘truth’) lets say you are right and this is a possible way to interpret John 1:1..

    But now we need to test if this is the TRUE way to interpret John 1:1, and seeing that you are so willing to DEFEND this one translation (that contradicts all others)…are you just as willing then to actually BELIEVE what it says…??

    Are you saying then Mike, that “..the word was a god.” ???

    See, it’s one thing to attack what someone else openly believes (even when it’s simply believing Scripture) – but…if you according to your wisdom are going to change this verse and use a questionable translation to do that, then, more than just denying how John 1:1 is translated – you need to make your own position clear in this ..if Jesus did not preexist with God – AS GOD…(as all Bibles except one agree)…then WHAT did He preexist as..? An Angel..??

    If this interpretation is true (as you imply by your defense of NWT) then HOW did He exist WITH God – as ‘a god’…(if there is only One God)???
    What are YOU actually saying is the truth here…???

    #776971
    Becky
    Participant

    David,
    You said the “you have become blinded by the simple realities”

    If they were that simple conversations like this would not happen. There are scriptures like 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, and 1 Timothy 2:5 that say there is one God. Those first two scriptures even go as far as says that that one God is the Father. That sounds pretty simple to me. There is one god and he is the father.

    #776972
    DavidL
    Participant

    the Word was with God..the Word was God – what’s more simple than that ?

    #776973
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Thanks Becky. Your post is pretty clear and straightforward.

    Further, the New Testamant has phrases like this:

    Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
    I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

    And many of Paul’s letters start like this:
    “Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    The true confession regarding Jesus, is that he is Lord and all will get around to confessing that one way or another. Best to start now though.

    🙂

    #776974
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Davidl, Jesus said, “ye are theos”. What can be more simple than that?

    If I believed that men could become God, then I could use your exact argument and phrases to support that view.

    John 1:1 is not that simple. Other scriptures are very simple and straightforward, but John 1:1 is not one of those.

    And choosing the option that contradicts all the simple clear verses DavidL, is reckless IMO.

    Scripture judges scripture. If there are options, then the rest of scripture will tell you which option is correct. It will never be the option that contradicts clear and indisputable verses.

    “For us, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    #776975
    DavidL
    Participant

    In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes…

    #776976
    DavidL
    Participant

    you rely on your own logic – but it is this logic that brings confusion..we are to understand Scripture according to the simple revelation of the Holy Spirit..which reveals to us, just as it did to the apostles, and Thomas.. Jesus is both Lord and God.

    This does not contradict Scripture – only your human logic.

    #776977
    DavidL
    Participant

    well, I am happy to let others discern between what we are saying..

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