Coming Out of the Closet

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April 14, 2016 at 12:53 pm#811782
terraricca
Participant
hi
it is my beleive that homosexsuals are not born this way like some may tell it is so ;
what no one says is what environment does the child live under or is raised under ?
what have been the practices of the family around the child ?
and in most cases if the child was exposed to paedophiles , for most parents do not protect their children well enough ,
a corrupted society will not produce godly children ,this is my experience and opinion
April 15, 2016 at 2:21 pm#811883
david
Participant
hi kerwin
if animals can agh. Bold off. Great. It’s been a while and I know people on here view Romans differently than me, but didn’t man inherit sin from adam? How do you understand that scripture?
Animals didn’t eat the fruit. Didn’t rebel. And were created to act on instinct that was apparently built into them by God. it was easier thinking about this before we discovered that all animals studied have a percentage that are truly homosexuals, some even pair bonding for life.
Why do you think a percentage of each species is homosexual? Why do you think God made/allowed this, given how disgusted he is by it in humans?
***
something else that has bothered me–I can try as hard as I can to become homosexual, but I just can’t force myself to desire that or think that way. No matter how hard I try, I can’t decide to be homosexual. This is why it’s hard for me to understand when others decided to become homosexuals. It’s something that I think seems completely impossible for most people. I think if you wanted to try an experiment and become homosexual in your desires, you couldn’t. And so similarly, if you were homosexual.
If it is the environment, the person grew up abused or in an environment as a child that lead to them being homosexual, I’m again not sure how they can be condemned for this, if it wasn’t really due to them. Just like I can’t flip over and be homosexual, I find it hard to believe they could do the opposite.

April 15, 2016 at 2:26 pm#811884
david
Participant
Terrifica,
i am certain that sexual abuse changes a child, damages their brain, and affects their whole life in horrible ways I can’t understand. The abused child will be prone to problems. But let’s say that this includes being prone to homosexuality, or even causing it.
How are we to view this victim of this horrific crime? IF such a thing could alter a child so that they became homosexual, as I think you suggest, how can we condemn them? How can anyone condemn them, if it is the result of horrible child rape, messing up their minds?
April 15, 2016 at 2:33 pm#811885
david
Participant
T8,
i have held the same belief–when man fell, the normal fear that or subjugation that animals were supposed to have for man, was broken. There is a scripture or two that suggests this. God let or made this happen. And it will be fixed in the future. Sure, I understand that and can go with that idea. So God mad wit so animals started eating other animals and attacking humans and being Unpeaceful.
but it seems God made these rules, and allowed what he allowed. It doesn’t make sense to me that among other things he made it so that a percentage of animals (just like humans) would be homosexuals. It was man that sinned. And God let man see where sin lead. But why animals? Why allow or make it so that animals would do the same thing, a thing God apparently considers disgusting and unnatural?
man seems no different than animals in this. Every animal studied–every mammal, every insect, has percentages of homosexuals. We can say these are just animals. But again, if God is disgusted by this, why would God allow it or even make it so, when he didn’t have to?
April 15, 2016 at 3:41 pm#811890
kerwin
Participant
David,
but didn’t man inherit sin from adam
I am not sure what passage(s) is used to support it but it is not a tenet I hold to. All creation was subjected to corruption by Adam’s sin. (Romans 8:20:23) It is call tendency toward entropy by scientists. That is one facet of it. The facet that can be misinterpreted is that human nature was changed so that sinful desires were implicit in it. The is why Jesus states he came to free those that were slaves to sin from their slavery and he does do that for those that believe receive the Spirit of God and so obtain the choice of either living by it or by their human nature.
In the garden Adam and Eve seemed more like intelligent beasts than those after the fall even though neither there own or that of the beast were considered bestial in the garden.
Homosexuality is specifically addressed in Romans 1 as are some other sins to a lesser degree and there answer there is that God handled sinners over to their own gods and said let those gods rescue them because they did not acknowledge God as God. I just see sins as the equivalent of “gods”.
For some reason out modern culture labels an individual that is tempted by same sex desires as being guilty of homosexuality where Scripture does not do that. If it did then Jesus would be guilty of sin.
April 15, 2016 at 3:56 pm#811891
terraricca
Participant
hi David
read you loud and clear ;but it is not us for now ;God also prevent Israel to mix with the gentiles in their time ,but God as a day of judgment to come ,and I believe that then would be the time to forgive all things ;but today God gother a people for his name ,and those have to change their lives and live has Christ lived in truth and in the spirit of the soul and mind ,just as scriptures says all will be judged even those that died in the flood ,
I condemn them nor has souls but has their behaviour and this to protect me and mine with great difficulty ,for the world becomes more and more corrupt every day and in all their ways
April 15, 2016 at 4:21 pm#811897
kerwin
Participant
David,
Why do you think a percentage of each species is homosexual? Why do you think God made/allowed this, given how disgusted he is by it in humans?
The nature of the flesh is experienced by all creatures that have souls. The physical creatures such as plants are immune by there lack of self awareness and free will. It may be that beasts are not protected because they serve as a symbol of fallen human nature. It does not effect them one way or another in the long run as they are not accountable since they are not spiritual creations. They are regarded at most like children.
Satan rules the world and subjecting animals is his plan though God will use it for good. There is a war between angels and the fallen and God serves as the referee. Even the angels are unaware of his plan but he has one so he is not unbiased. I see the angels as behaving benevolent and the fallen as behaving malevolent but I doubt natural man will regard all of the former’ actions as benevolent or the later’s benevolent because they are part of a long term strategy and sometimes what one way in the short term ends up aiding the other way in the long term.
God allow animals to be homosexual because it serves his purpose to save all that can be saved in the long term.
April 17, 2016 at 5:55 am#811957
terraricca
Participant
if anyone think that homosexuality in any form of beings is correct ,then I can say there is something wrong with you ,
for it is counter all nature, counterproductive
April 18, 2016 at 9:17 am#812005
david
Participant
“”For some reason out modern culture labels an individual that is tempted by same sex desires as being guilty of homosexuality where Scripture does not do that. If it did then Jesus would be guilty of sin.”
what?? What are you saying here??

romans 5:12 is the scripture I meant I know many on here understand it differently than inherited sin.
The romans 8 scripture, I’m not sure the creation includes animals here, the way it speaks about it

April 18, 2016 at 3:41 pm#812027
terraricca
Participant
the corrupt mind and heart will not find his way to salvation unless it understand the need to change that behavior
but we all know that wickedness will go on until the end of this age ,and so only those that realy seek God’s truth and apply it will be saved ,and for this reason we may find ourselves walking alone for a while on this earth ,but not without our lord and his God ,our Father
May 11, 2016 at 10:20 am#814046
Proclaimer
Participant
Good post T.
May 11, 2016 at 10:42 am#814048
Proclaimer
Participant
@david
i have held the same belief–when man fell, the normal fear that or subjugation that animals were supposed to have for man, was broken. There is a scripture or two that suggests this. God let or made this happen. And it will be fixed in the future. Sure, I understand that and can go with that idea. So God mad wit so animals started eating other animals and attacking humans and being Unpeaceful.
but it seems God made these rules, and allowed what he allowed. It doesn’t make sense to me that among other things he made it so that a percentage of animals (just like humans) would be homosexuals. It was man that sinned. And God let man see where sin lead. But why animals? Why allow or make it so that animals would do the same thing, a thing God apparently considers disgusting and unnatural?
man seems no different than animals in this. Every animal studied–every mammal, every insect, has percentages of homosexuals. We can say these are just animals. But again, if God is disgusted by this, why would God allow it or even make it so, when he didn’t have to?
I hear you david. It seems very unfair. Sort of random condemnation. If you are unlucky, you become one by no fault of your own.
However, I see it more like this david.
Two brothers are brought up in a violent home. They are beaten from time to time and live in fear.
One brother grew up and also beat his children. It was not his fault because that is how he was brought up and he had no choice in that matter.
However:
The other brother hated what happened to him that much that he decided to not subject his own family to such evil. He loved his children and protected them. He nurtured his sons and perhaps loved them even more than most as his love was partly inspired by knowing what it was like to be hated.
While both had the same upbringing, they both still had a choice. As scripture states, there are two paths, and if we choose the wrong path, then we become slaves of our nature and upbringing. If we choose the right path, then we can change and be renewed and God can give us strength beyond any natural strongholds that try to bind us.
Sexual sin is no different. We can either be bound to it, or freed by God from it. While it is never too late to change the path we are on, it does become harder to deal with learned behavior the longer we travel down the wrong path. However, God’s grace is sufficient should we want to change. He gives us yearnings in the spirit that if we obey, lead us to doing the right thing.
And yes our flesh is corrupt, but if do not want to sin and yet still do, then we have a covenant with God and in truth, it is no longer I that sin, but the sin in us playing out. Our intercessor is not without understanding in such matters. While we all have sinful tendencies, we can all be given God given tendencies in the spirit too.
Many alcoholics give up being drunkards and never touch a drop again. But they remain weak and need to pray for strength that they will not succumb to their flesh.
The truth is inescapable, we will choose the path we love the most. We may err, but overall, we will choose where we will walk.
Not all who sin are sinners just as not all who fish are fisherman.
May 11, 2016 at 10:58 am#814051
Proclaimer
Participant
Animals didn’t eat the fruit. Didn’t rebel. And were created to act on instinct that was apparently built into them by God. it was easier thinking about this before we discovered that all animals studied have a percentage that are truly homosexuals, some even pair bonding for life.
Who sinned first? Was it man? Whoever sinned first spread his sin down the line of authority. Down to man and even animals. It seems unfair, but God is looking for the Elect. The Elect have chosen God. When there is no sin, then there is no choice in that respect. The Elect angels chose God. The Elect among us choose God. We do not choose evil.
If we were born perfect like the angels, then the time will come when the choice rises. It seems that this is how it was for the angels. Is it really any difference with us. We are born sinners and can become righteous before God, while they were created perfect and could choose to fall. In the end, what will be left is the Elect who can never sin. So shall they always be with the Lord. They passed the test and there is no more to tempt them away.
As for the animals, what a miserable existence some of them have. I have no idea what happens to them. But the lion lays down with the lamb. So they will live in harmony in the Kingdom. Do they get another life, or are they just newly created animals, or both? We know that God’s spirit returns back to him and he can breath it back into living beings when he wants. God is love, so I trust that he is more righteous and just than I can ever be.
June 13, 2016 at 4:44 pm#814824
Andrew AD
Participant
Hello Friends,
I do think there are various reasons for people being gay and some have been mentioned but I also think some are born that way.I used to not accept this -people being born gay-as this was not in line with what the church taught but I have changed my mind in the last several years. Some people are born with both sexes and some have too many hormones of the opposite sex. I knew a woman who had a much thicker beard than me and she was gay. Also I knew a couple who were both hetero who had a son who they came to see would be different/ gay by the way he just was. They were good parents and the boy received no abuse but was always very feminine and he did turn out as a homosexual. They weren’t happy about this but always loved him and didn’t despise him for it.They accepted him for who he was or as they felt God made him.And no they were not fundamentalist Christians but moral,law abiding good people.
I have some homosexuals both male and female on both sides of my family.How they became that way or if they were born like that I don’t know.I have never been that close to them as to question them about it.But I do think one was probably born that way since he was always feminine and we called him a sissy growing up. But it was partly due to them and other lgbt’s I’ve known that lead me a few years ago to honestly allow myself to think about this issue. I always loved them and prayed for them but I couldn’t really accept them.Now i do and don’t damn them in my mind over it anymore.
June 20, 2016 at 5:19 pm#815069
Proclaimer
Participant
People who have characteristics of both sexes cannot be gay IMO because their DNA has both as you say. How do we know what sex they really are, so how can they be accused of being gay. Are they a woman with male characteristics or a man with female characteristics. If they can choose what they are, then that would probably be based on what sex they are attracted to, and hence they are the opposite. I think those whose DNA dictates they are male or female, but prefer their own gender despite their DNA would be the ones classified as homosexual. Also, I think you have to be a practicing homosexual to be classified as one. A man with alcoholic tendencies is not necessarily an alcoholic.
June 21, 2016 at 1:10 pm#815090
AndrewAD
Participant
Even people born with both sexes will usually grow up to appear as either a man or woman but if they are attracted to the same sex as they appear does that then make them homosexual? To the outside world who doesn’t know of their natural condition it would appear so.
And a person who has no physical sex at all with anyone yet is always sexually attracted to their same sex I would say is a homosexual for God sees the heart or inside and Jesus said whoever looks on a woman lustfully has already committed adultery.
It is a complex issue and I don’t believe that all homo’s were born that way but I do believe that some are and if so then are they cursed by God for their forebears not worshipping rightly?

June 27, 2016 at 8:19 pm#815266
hoghead1
Participant
I don’t think anyone is born homosexual or heterosexual. We all innately, genetically have sexual impulses. However, our sexual preferences are largely culturally determined. Also, sexuality more than just mere reproductive purposes. That’s why our sex drives are far more active than what would be necessary for mere reproduction. Sexuality also has a lot to do with social power and status. Also sexual encounters can be a source of spiritual enlightenment, part of teh quest for unity with God. That’s why the Christian mystical tradition I rich in erotic imagery.
June 28, 2016 at 2:04 pm#815288
AndrewAD
Participant
Hoghead,
You say our our sexual impulses are largely culturally determined and none of us are born hetero or homo? if that be true then why has there always been closet homos in Christendom,Judaism and even Islam,and other cultures where homosexuality is extremely taboo. And it’s not all because these people whether male or female were sexually molested as children.
And what of Romans 1:18-27 where St Paul plainly implies God gave people up to homosexuality for not worshiping him rightly? and of course to other sins as well but he points out homosexuality quite plainly in these verses. Granted Paul doesn’t say they are born this way but what of those who think they were and struggle with it all their lives even while trying to be good Christians?
June 28, 2016 at 2:09 pm#815289
AndrewAD
Participant
And just what Christian mystic tradition is rich in erotic imagery? most Christian mystics that I know of were celibates except for maybe Rasputin.
June 28, 2016 at 3:10 pm#815292
hoghead1
Participant
HI, Andrew,
Try those in the so-called Minnesinger (Love Singer or Love Balladeer) tradition, which actually includes quite a few. One major example is St. John of the Cross, who speaks of drinking teh sweet and pleasant spiritual ‘milk” because God now offers the soul his “breast of tender love” to suck on. Hnece, his bridegroom mysticism, where the soul; is described as the groom , and God becomes the bride who offers the soul her naked breasts. Another major example is St. Teresa of Avila. Based on the description one of of her mystical experiences, a famous work of scu0pptor is the Ecstasy of St. Teresa. You can go online and look at it. it is loaded with all kinds of sexual imagery. She describes her breast as being pierced by the spear of a mighty, handsome angel. Another major example is Dionysius or Pseud0-Dionysius, who calls God “Eros.” The likening of God to a supra-personal affectionate spouse is quite common throughout the mystical literature, found in St. Gertrude, Henry Suso, Hugh of St. Victor, Blosius, St. Benard, St. Teresa, St. John (as just mentioned), etc. For fun here, and in case you like classical music, and, well, even if you don’t, try listening, if you haven’t, to Carl Orff’s “Carmina Bruana” (“Songs of the Benedictines”). Several recorings are easily available on Youtube. You’ll see. Great work. Played trumpet in at a summer arts festival several years ago. Phew! What a piece!
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