Does God torment the wicked forever?

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February 21, 2015 at 7:02 pm#789331
DavidL
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obviously you can be alive without experiencing eternal life…
eternal death does not mean you finally cease to exist – it means separation from God, forever and ever – (without end)…

“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” – Rev 20:10

“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” – Rev 21:9

“Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, <span class=”highl”>he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. </span>And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” – Rev 14:9-11
It is very clear what the Scriptures teach about hell – it is also very serious for those who add or take away from the truth of God’s Word.

February 22, 2015 at 12:22 am#789348
Proclaimer
Participant
obviously you can be alive without experiencing eternal life…
eternal death does not mean you finally cease to exist – it means separation from God, forever and ever – (without end)…
There is a contradiction in your statement as big as Texas.
You say that eternal life is being alive right. But then you believe that the wicked will suffer while being alive right?
So the wicked also have eternal life according to your view.
You then say that they are separated from God and that is true, this is the Second Death. But by what thing or mechanism are they alive eternally? It is God’s Spirit that gives us life. If we have his spirit eternally, then we are alive eternally. If the spirit is taken from us, then no surprises as to what happens next.
So, we prefer what scripture says:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever shall believe upon him shall not perish, but inherit eternal life.
We believe the wicked will perish and only the righteous inherit eternal life.
We do not believe this theory that both Hell and the human soul are eternal. Rather, we believe that God can destroy the soul and Hell itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. We can prove this with scripture. All you have is Youtube videos and your own view. While they are not necessarily bad, they are bad though if they contradict scripture.
February 26, 2015 at 5:48 pm#789609
DavidL
Participant
You create your own logical confusion – there is a difference between natural life, and eternal life..
Before conversion we did not possess eternal life, yet we continued to exist..

You say that this existence is terminated by the second death (this teaching is called ‘Annihilism’) but sadly this is in stark contrast to the plain Scriptures..

“…They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” – Rev 20:10

Again I bring a warning to you that there are serious consequences for those who change the revealed truth of God’s Word.

February 26, 2015 at 6:29 pm#789610
Proclaimer
Participant
You give me one scripture that uses the word eon and ignore all the others that use to mean age.
And I give you dozens of scriptures that talk about the destruction of the wicked and the old earth and heavens.
Have another read:
New Testamant:
https://heavennet.net/writings/new-testament-scriptures-that-dispel-an-eternal-hell/
Old Testament
https://heavennet.net/writings/old-testamant-scriptures-that-dispel-an-eternal-hell/
I can tell you here and now that a wise man will listen to scripture rather than a popular opinion based on a scripture that uses a word in varying ways. Whatever the truth is, the Bible will consistently back itself up on. As for eternal judgement, scripture is clear. The wicked will perish. If you do not believe it, then that is your problem.
Realise that this age (eon) will pass away and in the next eon, God renews everything where only the righteous will dwell. No wicked person will be found there and no sin is there. There is no pain, crying. or the ways of old. No wicked person will ever enter any of the ages to come.
Regardless, no one is encouraging people to sin and reject God. We are simply saying what scripture says: repent, turn to God for eternal life, or reject God and perish. You obviously have a problem with this truth, but we got it from the Lord Jesus Christ. He said the same thing.
Read Jesus words and notice that he doesn’t support your view. rather you will find that we are merely repeating that which he taught.
^{John 3:16-21}¹⁶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
¹⁷For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
¹⁸He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
¹⁹And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
²⁰For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
²¹But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
February 26, 2015 at 7:14 pm#789621
terraricca
Participant
t8
agreed
two dead’s ? yes ;1) we are born dead because of the sin of Adam 2) if we do not accept jesus Christ sacrifice to save us from the dead curse of Adam then we are receiving the sentence of the second final dead or destruction of our soul by God ,
February 26, 2015 at 9:50 pm#789630
Proclaimer
Participant
Amen T.
The second death is the destruction of the soul.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
DavidL would likely argue that the soul cannot be destroyed. That is is eternal and thus millions perhaps billions of souls will be burned for all eternity and never face destruction. He of course needs to ignore dozens if not hundreds of scripture to hold his view.
February 27, 2015 at 6:40 am#789632
NickHassan
Participant
Hi t8,
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Of course the verse you quote says CAN and not say He does.
Likewise it does not say instantly destroys.
It must be aligned with the other verses
February 27, 2015 at 7:15 am#789633
kerwin
Participant
There is the spiritually dead but that is a symbolic death in that a person is dead to the Spirit of God.
There is bloodily death in which the body dies and then the death of the soul.
From what I hear both the wicked and righteous are raised from the dead before they a judged and after judgment the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire. The lake of fire destroys both flesh and soul and Scripture says that, the lake of fire, is the second death.
February 27, 2015 at 7:26 am#789634
kerwin
Participant
Revelation 20:10Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
“are” is present tense. This sounds like he is speaking of what is happening at the current time.
“shall be” if an event that will occur in the future. This sounds like what will occur at a future time,
“was” is past tense. It sounds like John is speaking of the occurrence of his vision and what he saw therein and so used a past tense verb because his vision was in the past.
The “are” combined with the ages causes confusion in understanding the sentence.
The for Koine Greek is most for likely saying “ages and ages” and “ages and ages” is a English phrase which means a very long and indeterminate time.
February 27, 2015 at 8:32 am#789644
terraricca
Participant
Kerwin
you need more reading for you mix all things up , not only the truth in scriptures but the grammar as well ,we should go by the spirit not by the letter ,
February 27, 2015 at 8:38 am#789645
NickHassan
Participant
Hi KW
“There is the spiritually dead but that is a symbolic death in that a person is dead to the Spirit of God.”
All who do not have the Spirit of life cannot share eternal life.
They are dead in their sins.
February 27, 2015 at 11:07 am#789651
DavidL
Participant
Thanks Kerwin… maybe t8 could give his interpretation of Rev 20:10..
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” – Rev 20:10
T8 – you teach that existence of the wicked is terminated in the lake of fire (second death), and yet this verse specifically says that the second death involves torment that lasts for ever and ever…!? [without end]

Even if you change the word to mean ages and ages – how can this be seen as some sort of instant annihilation..??

It is my conclusion that again you have manipulated the meaning of Scripture to suit your own teaching, (a doctrine based on human reasoning – and NOT according to the Spirit of God, who alone gives understanding).
February 27, 2015 at 11:55 pm#789675
Miia
Participant
You say that this existence is terminated by the second death (this teaching is called ‘Annihilism’) but sadly this is in stark contrast to the plain Scriptures..

“…They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” – Rev 20:10

Again I bring a warning to you that there are serious consequences for those who change the revealed truth of God’s Word.

DavidL, you really need to get to know the true God. Most people accept the eternal hell doctrine without giving it any thought. But, when led by the spirit to truth, they DO question it, and God will show them the truth of the matter, and the truth is not what you defend.

Psalms 103:9 “He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.

Psalms 30:5 “For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning.

Isaiah 57:16 “”For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made.

John 3:16 “”For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Find the God who is Love. We inherited our love and compassion and forgiveness from Him, and He will save us.
February 28, 2015 at 2:28 am#789677
Proclaimer
Participant
I am truly spoilt for choice as to what scriptures I should use. There are so many on this subject. I do not understand why some just ignore them.
February 28, 2015 at 2:44 am#789679
Proclaimer
Participant
“There is the spiritually dead but that is a symbolic death in that a person is dead to the Spirit of God.”
All who do not have the Spirit of life cannot share eternal life.
They are dead in their sins.
What exactly makes a person alive? The Spirit or Breath of God? Electricity?
Does the spirit go back to God who gave it? If so, are the wicked given back the breath or spirit again for the sole purpose of being tortured for all eternity in Hell? Where is it taught that we are given the spirit/breath and then given it again after it is taken away?
You need to think this through and look at the scriptures.
How are the wicked alive if they are cut off from the God of the living? Do they have another life power source of some kind? Do they get to keep the breath that gave them life, if so, why does it say that it goes back to god who gave it? Is it wrong when it says that the soul that sins will die? What happens when you forfeit your soul, does it mean you keep it? These are good and sensible questions that any person wanting to know about eternal judgement should ask.
February 28, 2015 at 2:45 am#789680
Proclaimer
Participant
Of course the verse you quote says CAN and not say He does.
Likewise it does not say instantly destroys.
It must be aligned with the other verses
My point stands then as I did not say that the verse said God will, but that he can.
Many other verses clearly teach he will and like any truth it will also be alluded to indirectly as well.
- What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
- the soul that sins shall die
This is enough to answer what you said above. But I add in more because there is a wealth of teaching on the human soul, destruction of the wicked, and eternal life of the righteous soul ONLY.
- for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
- hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
- But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
- He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
- What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?
- And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
- They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
- I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
- For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
- and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
- Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
- Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
- They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
- By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
- For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Anyone who denies that the wicked will be destroyed, perish, forfeit their soul, die, or thrown into the Second Death that also destroys the present earth and heaven simply deny scripture and what it teaches regarding eternal judgment.
Further, anyone who teaches that the wicked will also inherit eternal life, but in Hell, also goes against the scriptures on Judgement and Salvation. Because only the righteous inherit eternal life, only the righteous have their souls saved, and only the righteous will live.
This teaching that says that both the righteous and wicked will have their soul exist for all eternity are not aligned with the scriptures on the important doctrine of eternal judgement. It is one of the foundational doctrines of the true faith (Hebrews 6).
February 28, 2015 at 3:39 am#789683
terraricca
Participant
davidl
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” – Rev 20:10
T8 – you teach that existence of the wicked is terminated in the lake of fire (second death), and yet this verse specifically says that the second death involves torment that lasts for ever and ever…!? [without end]
Even if you change the word to mean ages and ages – how can this be seen as some sort of instant annihilation..??
It is my conclusion that again you have manipulated the meaning of Scripture to suit your own teaching, (a doctrine based on human reasoning – and NOT according to the Spirit of God, who alone gives understanding).
your scripture in Revelation 20;10 says;Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
so my question to you will be “what do you think is “the lake of fire ?and why would it be standing forever and ever ?
February 28, 2015 at 8:52 pm#789707
Miia
Participant
I admire your dedication for the truth, t8.
I gave up debating eternal conscious torment years ago when I learned most who defend ETC will not quit their beliefs (some will).
I was once on a forum, and there were three or four of us defending truth. I was warned by PM that they ban those who defend this truth,and sure enough one by one they were banned for no reason. The place lost the spirit and eventually closed down.
Seriously, I can’t understand their persistence.

March 1, 2015 at 6:42 am#789721
DavidL
Participant
T8 – you quote, the soul that sins shall die, as if this somehow proves something….when death itself is described as a state of separation – not extinction.

As with the trinity debate, you lay claim to the support of many Scriptures which you think supports your viewpoint (a viewpoint that, as you have repeatedly verified, is not sourced through prayerful meditation, but through the workings of your own natural thinking – which unfortunately is fatal in gaining an apprehension of the truth).. the Scriptures you produce really prove nothing and only show that it is your understanding that is flawed..

With all the months I spent on the trinity debate you could never once come up with your own rendering of John 1:1 – yet you would argue that the Bible translators got it wrong, and were either biased or mistaken in declaring that the Word was God…

I ain’t gonna hang around this time and waste my breath – so please just give me your understanding of Rev 20:10 and how it fits with your teaching.

March 1, 2015 at 7:23 am#789722
terraricca
Participant
DavidL
With all the months I spent on the trinity debate you could never once come up with your own rendering of John 1:1 – yet you would argue that the Bible translators got it wrong, and were either biased or mistaken in declaring that the Word was God…
well if you believe it as it is written then it is poor english ;for how could someone be with himself and saying it for what purpose ?
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
and according to you then GOD HAS A BEGINNING ?right
AND IF THE WORD WAS IN THE BEGINNING AND IN VERSE 2 IS CALLED “HE” THEN WOULD THIS MEAN THAT THE “HE” HIS GOD ?
what you say ?
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Does God torment the wicked forever?

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