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Does 1 John 5:20 call Jesus the true God?

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  • July 15, 2012 at 1:40 pm#305943
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2012,14:21)
    jammin, you are rapidly ruining what little good reputation you ever had on this site.  You run around calling everyone “boy” and asking the same questions we've already answered before.

    But since your memory doesn't seem to be the greatest, he we are one more time:

    YES, my father is human, and therefore I am A human – but not the SAME human as my father.

    And YES, Christ's Father is God, and therefore, he is A god – but not the SAME god as his Father.

    NOW, answer my last question to you.  Here it is again:

    Are you aware of the fact that most of the translations you quote scripture from have been doctored by Trinitarian human beings who are trying their best to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what they WANT them to teach?   In other words, do you KNOW what you're doing, or are you simply oblivious to this fact?


    what is the difference between HUMAN and human??
    what is the difference between GOD and god?

    July 15, 2012 at 1:42 pm#305944
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 15 2012,18:58)

    Quote (jammin @ July 15 2012,13:58)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 14 2012,17:22)

    Quote (jammin @ July 14 2012,16:31)
    your father is HUMAN
    are you not HUMAN?

    Christ's father is GOD
    is Christ not GOD?


    Hi Jammin,

    What about Christ's mother?

    God bless
    Ed J


    edj
    do you believe that Christ became flesh? yes or no?

    mike,

    im still waiting for your answer boy


    Hi Jammin; “Christ” was born – as we all were.

    Heb 2:16-17 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful
    and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    the question is categorical
    you just need to answer yes or no

    do you believe that Christ became flesh?
    yes or no?

    July 15, 2012 at 1:43 pm#305945
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2012,14:21)
    jammin, you are rapidly ruining what little good reputation you ever had on this site.  You run around calling everyone “boy” and asking the same questions we've already answered before.

    But since your memory doesn't seem to be the greatest, he we are one more time:

    YES, my father is human, and therefore I am A human – but not the SAME human as my father.

    And YES, Christ's Father is God, and therefore, he is A god – but not the SAME god as his Father.

    NOW, answer my last question to you.  Here it is again:

    Are you aware of the fact that most of the translations you quote scripture from have been doctored by Trinitarian human beings who are trying their best to FORCE the scriptures into teaching what they WANT them to teach?   In other words, do you KNOW what you're doing, or are you simply oblivious to this fact?


    therefore
    you believe that your father is HUMAN
    but you are not HUMAN but human??? is that what you mean??

    bec Christ is not GOD but god to you .

    now, what is the difference between HUMAN and human???

    July 15, 2012 at 1:51 pm#305949
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ July 16 2012,00:42)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 15 2012,18:58)

    Quote (jammin @ July 15 2012,13:58)

    edj
    do you believe that Christ became flesh? yes or no?


    Hi Jammin; “Christ” was born – as we all were.

    Heb 2:16-17 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful
    and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    God bless
    Ed J


    the question is categorical
    you just need to answer yes or no

    do you believe that Christ became flesh?
    yes or no?


    Hi Jammin,

    Since “Christ” was born – yes Christ became flesh.         …are you trying to go somewhere here?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    July 15, 2012 at 4:05 pm#305954
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    jammin,

    I answered your question (for the 8th time). I will answer your NEXT question AFTER you answer mine.

    Are you aware of the fact that words have been added and changed in the translations you quote to “prove” your claims? Or are you blind to this FACT?

    July 15, 2012 at 4:41 pm#305959
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,06:59)
    The reason given by Jesus for resurrecting himself from the dead was to prove his authority as it had been questioned.


    Hi Colter,

    You touch on many subjects that we should discuss sometime.  For example, you remember that Jesus could appear and pass through walls after the resurrection, but seem to forget he walked on water and mysteriously appeared on the other side of the sea even before he was crucified.  You remember that the disciples thought they were seeing a ghost, but seem to forget that Jesus quelled that fear by assuring them he was not, for “spirits do not have flesh and bone, as you see I have”.

    But these things can wait until later.  Right now, I want to know what “was raised” means in the following scriptures………..

    John 2:22
    After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    John 21:14
    This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.

    Romans 4:25
    He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

    Romans 6:4
    We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    Romans 6:9
    For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

    Romans 7:4
    So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

    Romans 8:34
    Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
     
    1 Corinthians 15:4
    that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

    2 Corinthians 5:15
    And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

    If Jesus raised himself, could the phrase “was raised” even be used?  I still believe “I will raise it up” is metaphorical, like saying “Elijah WENT UP to heaven” when we know he was TAKEN UP to heaven.  Or like me saying “I'm flying to Denver” when we know I meant I was going to be a passenger on a plane that was flying to Denver.  You didn't comment on these things, so I have no way of knowing what you think about them.

    July 15, 2012 at 4:45 pm#305960
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    What about as Gene suggests – that God was speaking directly through him?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    July 15, 2012 at 5:04 pm#305962
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,07:20)
    188:3.2 Late Saturday night, John Mark summoned the eleven apostles secretly to come to the home of his father, where, just before midnight, they all assembled in the same upper chamber where they had partaken of the Last Supper with their Master two nights previously.


    It seems odd to me that neither Matthew, Mark, nor Luke mentioned in their gospels that the last supper was at John Mark's father's house.  

    It also seems odd that John Mark would summon ELEVEN other apostles, when only TEN other ones remained at this point.  (Surely he didn't summon Judas Iscariot, right?)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,07:20)
    188:3.4 We are not able fully to explain just what happened to Jesus of Nazareth during this period of a day and a half when he was supposed to be resting in Joseph’s new tomb.


    Well then, what good are you?  :)

    I'm sorry Colter.  I don't mean to poke fun, but I read the whole post, and it is hard for me to accept as legitimate.

    July 15, 2012 at 5:19 pm#305963
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ July 15 2012,10:45)
    Hi Mike,

    What about as Gene suggests – that God was speaking directly through him?

    God bless
    Ed J


    I don't personally believe that, Ed.  I think phrases like “it is the Father who speaks through me” and “the Holy Spirit will be doing the speaking” are metaphorical.  I believe God let Jesus know what words to speak, and that the Holy Spirit let the others know what words to speak when the time came, but I don't think the Father or the Holy Spirit spoke first person through anyone.

    Consider this scripture:
    Mark 12:36
    David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’

    Surely David was “shown” something, or made to know some future event, but if the Holy Spirit LITERALLY spoke first person through David at this time, it most likely wouldn't have called Jesus “my Lord”, right?  We have to figure out who called (will call) Jesus “my Lord”.  Whoever that one is, is the one who actually did the speaking – even if the words came from knowledge given him via God's Holy Spirit.

    This subject might make for an interesting thread though.

    peace,
    mike

    July 15, 2012 at 6:06 pm#305965
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You're right, it might be a good topic to start.  :)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    July 15, 2012 at 6:48 pm#305966
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ July 15 2012,12:06)
    Hi Mike,

    You're right


    I'm going to save this quote from you, and use it whenever you disagree with me. :D

    July 15, 2012 at 6:49 pm#305967
    Spock
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,04:04)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,07:20)
    188:3.2 Late Saturday night, John Mark summoned the eleven apostles secretly to come to the home of his father, where, just before midnight, they all assembled in the same upper chamber where they had partaken of the Last Supper with their Master two nights previously.


    It seems odd to me that neither Matthew, Mark, nor Luke mentioned in their gospels that the last supper was at John Mark's father's house.  

    It also seems odd that John Mark would summon ELEVEN other apostles, when only TEN other ones remained at this point.  (Surely he didn't summon Judas Iscariot, right?)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,07:20)
    188:3.4 We are not able fully to explain just what happened to Jesus of Nazareth during this period of a day and a half when he was supposed to be resting in Joseph’s new tomb.


    Well then, what good are you?  :)

    I'm sorry Colter.  I don't mean to poke fun, but I read the whole post, and it is hard for me to accept as legitimate.


    Quote
    It seems odd to me that neither Matthew, Mark, nor Luke mentioned in their gospels that the last supper was at John Mark's father's house.

    I don't know why the absence of that detail is odd? The UB has the entire story with many more details because the revelators were on the earth when Jesus was.

    Quote
    It also seems odd that John Mark would summon ELEVEN other apostles, when only TEN other ones remained at this point.  (Surely he didn't summon Judas Iscariot, right?)

    It doesn't say eleven OTHER, >you< added the word "other" it said "summoned the eleven apostles", being a narrative about (not quoting John Mark) it's appropriate to consider the remaining body of eleven. The full sentence: Late Saturday night, John Mark summoned the eleven apostles secretly to come to the home of his father, where, just before midnight, they all assembled in the same upper chamber where they had partaken of the Last Supper with their Master two nights previously.

    John Mark is included in the eleven. We have been fact checking this book for nearly 60 years, computer checking specific days of the week which were not calculated yet in the early 20th century, it stands up to scrutiny.

    The same term is used just after the ascension when the eleven voted on Methias to replace Judas:

    “The eleven apostles then went downstairs, where they agreed to cast lots in order to determine which of these men should become an apostle to serve in Judas's place. The lot fell on Matthias, and he was declared to be the new apostle. He was duly inducted into his office and then appointed treasurer. But Matthias had little part in the subsequent activities of the apostles.”

    Colter

    July 15, 2012 at 6:57 pm#305969
    Spock
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,04:04)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,07:20)
    188:3.2 Late Saturday night, John Mark summoned the eleven apostles secretly to come to the home of his father, where, just before midnight, they all assembled in the same upper chamber where they had partaken of the Last Supper with their Master two nights previously.


    It seems odd to me that neither Matthew, Mark, nor Luke mentioned in their gospels that the last supper was at John Mark's father's house.  

    It also seems odd that John Mark would summon ELEVEN other apostles, when only TEN other ones remained at this point.  (Surely he didn't summon Judas Iscariot, right?)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,07:20)
    188:3.4 We are not able fully to explain just what happened to Jesus of Nazareth during this period of a day and a half when he was supposed to be resting in Joseph’s new tomb.


    Well then, what good are you?  :)

    I'm sorry Colter.  I don't mean to poke fun, but I read the whole post, and it is hard for me to accept as legitimate.


    That's ok Mike,this is not at all uncommon, it was very hard for the most learned Jewish theologians to accept Jesus, a carpenter from Nazareth (of all places) who claimed to be the Son of God. It was the common people who heard him gladly while the educated religious authorities conspired to put an end to his strange, Liberal, new age teaching.

    Colter

    July 15, 2012 at 7:04 pm#305970
    Spock
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2012,00:23)
    colter

    Quote
    I understand the concept of Jesus “Christ Michael” as an eternal Son, inseparably unified in divinity with the spirit Father, as co-creator of this world, but I don't really claim to grasp the personification of the Father in his divine Sons.

    were is this in scriptures ??? you what you believe must be the truth and not Gods truth but your s the most liberal one ,were lies and some truth seems to mingle ,the gray line like some call it ,

    Quote
    Religionist commit a tragic disaster when the unknowlinlg dumb things down because they don't understand them at the expense of the profound truth.

    what you are trying to say is ;that you have it and all others do not ??? right ,:D this is why you can not stand the scriptures they always remind you that their is a truth of God ,this must be frustrating ???


    Jesus of the UB:

    (1655.4) 147:7.2 On Tuesday evening Jesus was conducting one of his customary classes of questions and answers when the leader of the six spies said to him: “I was today talking with one of John’s disciples who is here attending upon your teaching, and we were at a loss to understand why you never command your disciples to fast and pray as we Pharisees fast and as John bade his followers.” And Jesus, referring to a statement by John, answered this questioner: “Do the sons of the bridechamber fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as the bridegroom remains with them, they can hardly fast. But the time is coming when the bridegroom shall be taken away, and during those times the children of the bridechamber undoubtedly will fast and pray. To pray is natural for the children of light, but fasting is not a part of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. Be reminded that a wise tailor does not sew a piece of new and unshrunk cloth upon an old garment, lest, when it is wet, it shrink and produce a worse rent. Neither do men put new wine into old wine skins, lest the new wine burst the skins so that both the wine and the skins perish. The wise man puts the new wine into fresh wine skins. Therefore do my disciples show wisdom in that they do not bring too much of the old order over into the new teaching of the gospel of the kingdom. You who have lost your teacher may be justified in fasting for a time. Fasting may be an appropriate part of the law of Moses, but in the coming kingdom the sons of God shall experience freedom from fear and joy in the divine spirit.” And when they heard these words, the disciples of John were comforted while the Pharisees themselves were the more confounded.

    (1656.1) 147:7.3 Then the Master proceeded to warn his hearers against entertaining the notion that all olden teaching should be replaced entirely by new doctrines. Said Jesus: “That which is old and also true must abide. Likewise, that which is new but false must be rejected. But that which is new and also true, have the faith and courage to accept. Remember it is written: ‘Forsake not an old friend, for the new is not comparable to him. As new wine, so is a new friend; if it becomes old, you shall drink it with gladness.’”UB

    Colter

    July 15, 2012 at 7:16 pm#305972
    Spock
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,03:41)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,06:59)
    The reason given by Jesus for resurrecting himself from the dead was to prove his authority as it had been questioned.


    Hi Colter,

    You touch on many subjects that we should discuss sometime.  For example, you remember that Jesus could appear and pass through walls after the resurrection, but seem to forget he walked on water and mysteriously appeared on the other side of the sea even before he was crucified.  You remember that the disciples thought they were seeing a ghost, but seem to forget that Jesus quelled that fear by assuring them he was not, for “spirits do not have flesh and bone, as you see I have”.

    But these things can wait until later.  Right now, I want to know what “was raised” means in the following scriptures………..

    John 2:22
    After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    John 21:14
    This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.

    Romans 4:25
    He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

    Romans 6:4
    We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    Romans 6:9
    For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

    Romans 7:4
    So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

    Romans 8:34
    Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
     
    1 Corinthians 15:4
    that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

    2 Corinthians 5:15
    And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

    If Jesus raised himself, could the phrase “was raised” even be used?  I still believe “I will raise it up” is metaphorical, like saying “Elijah WENT UP to heaven” when we know he was TAKEN UP to heaven.  Or like me saying “I'm flying to Denver” when we know I meant I was going to be a passenger on a plane that was flying to Denver.  You didn't comment on these things, so I have no way of knowing what you think about them.


    Yes, “was raised” works because Jesus had returned to the Glory of God, after the resurrection he speaks as Lord and God yet appears in the form of his former mortal tabernacle. Since he is not dead and returned in the new form the account is accurate when it says “was raised”.

    Elijah, Enoch and others unlettered in history were “translated”, they did not pass through mortal death. Jesus died a natural death in order to experience what the least of his beloved children are called to experience.

    Death and Translation

    (623.1) 55:2.1 Natural, physical death is not a mortal inevitability. The majority of advanced evolutionary beings, citizens on worlds existing in the final era of light and life, do not die; they are translated directly from the life in the flesh to the morontia existence.

    (623.2) 55:2.2 This experience of translation from the material life to the morontia state — fusion of the immortal soul with the indwelling Adjuster — increases in frequency commensurate with the evolutionary progress of the planet. At first only a few mortals in each age attain translation levels of spiritual progress, but with the onset of the successive ages of the Teacher Sons, more and more Adjuster fusions occur before the termination of the lengthening lives of these progressing mortals; and by the time of the terminal mission of the Teacher Sons, approximately one quarter of these superb mortals are exempt from natural death.

    (623.3) 55:2.3 Farther along in the era of light and life the midway creatures or their associates sense the approaching status of probable soul-Adjuster union and signify this to the destiny guardians, who in turn communicate these matters to the finaliter group under whose jurisdiction this mortal may be functioning; then there is issued the summons of the Planetary Sovereign for such a mortal to resign all planetary duties, bid farewell to the world of his origin, and repair to the inner temple of the Planetary Sovereign, there to await morontia transit, the translation flash, from the material domain of evolution to the morontia level of prespirit progression.

    (623.4) 55:2.4 When the family, friends, and working group of such a fusion candidate have forgathered in the morontia temple, they are distributed around the central stage whereon the fusion candidates are resting, meantime freely conversing with their assembled friends. A circle of intervening celestial personalities is arranged to protect the material mortals from the action of the energies manifest at the instant of the “life flash” which delivers the ascension candidate from the bonds of material flesh, thereby doing for such an evolutionary mortal everything that natural death does for those who are thereby delivered from the flesh.

    (623.5) 55:2.5 Many fusion candidates may be assembled in the spacious temple at the same time. And what a beautiful occasion when mortals thus forgather to witness the ascension of their loved ones in spiritual flames, and what a contrast to those earlier ages when mortals must commit their dead to the embrace of the terrestrial elements! The scenes of weeping and wailing characteristic of earlier epochs of human evolution are now replaced by ecstatic joy and the sublimest enthusiasm as these God-knowing mortals bid their loved ones a transient farewell as they are removed from their material associations by the spiritual fires of consuming grandeur and ascending glory. On worlds settled in light and life, “funerals” are occasions of supreme joy, profound satisfaction, and inexpressible hope.

    (623.6) 55:2.6 The souls of these progressing mortals are increasingly filled with faith, hope, and assurance. The spirit permeating those gathered around the translation shrine resembles that of the joyful friends and relatives who might assemble at a graduating exercise for one of their group, or who might come together to witness the conferring of some great honor upon one of their number. And it would be decidedly helpful if less advanced mortals could only learn to view natural death with something of this same cheerfulness and lightheartedness.

    (624.1) 55:2.7 Mortal observers can see nothing of their translated associates subsequent to the fusion flash. Such translated souls proceed by Adjuster transit direct to the resurrection hall of the appropriate morontia-training world. These transactions concerned with the translation of living human beings to the morontia world are supervised by an archangel who was assigned to such a world on the day when it was first settled in light and life.

    (624.2) 55:2.8 By the time a world attains the fourth stage of light and life, more than half the mortals leave the planet by translation from among the living. Such diminishment of death continues on and on, but I know of no system whose inhabited worlds, even th
    ough long settled in life, are entirely free from natural death as the technique of escape from the bonds of flesh. And until such a high state of planetary evolution is uniformly attained, the morontia-training worlds of the local universe must continue in service as educational and cultural spheres for the evolving morontia progressors. The elimination of death is theoretically possible, but it has not yet occurred according to my observation. Perhaps such a status may be attained during the faraway stretches of the succeeding epochs of the seventh stage of settled planetary life.

    (624.3) 55:2.9 The translated souls of the flowering ages of the settled spheres do not pass through the mansion worlds. Neither do they sojourn, as students, on the morontia worlds of the system or constellation. They do not pass through any of the earlier phases of morontia life. They are the only ascending mortals who so nearly escape the morontia transition from material existence to semispirit status. The initial experience of such Son-seized mortals in the ascension career is in the services of the progression worlds of the universe headquarters. And from these study worlds of Salvington they go back as teachers to the very worlds they passed by, subsequently going on inward to Paradise by the established route of mortal ascension.

    (624.4) 55:2.10 Could you but visit a planet in an advanced stage of development, you would quickly grasp the reasons for providing for the differential reception of ascending mortals on the mansion and higher morontia worlds. You would readily understand that beings passing on from such highly evolved spheres are prepared to resume their Paradise ascent far in advance of the average mortal arriving from a disordered and backward world like Urantia.

    (624.5) 55:2.11 No matter from what level of planetary attainment human beings may ascend to the morontia worlds, the seven mansion spheres afford them ample opportunity to gain in experience as teacher-students all of everything which they failed to pass through because of the advanced status of their native planets.

    (624.6) 55:2.12 The universe is unfailing in the application of these equalizing techniques designed to insure that no ascender shall be deprived of aught which is essential to his ascension experience.

    Colter

    July 15, 2012 at 8:05 pm#305978
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,12:49)
    I don't know why the absence of that detail is odd?  The UB has the entire story with many more details because the revelators were on the earth when Jesus was.


    And wasn't Matthew there on earth also?  Yet Matthew records the father of John Mark as “a certain man”.  I just find it interesting.

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,12:49)
    It doesn't say eleven OTHER, >you< added the word "other" it said "summoned the eleven apostles", being a narrative about (not quoting John Mark) it's appropriate to consider the remaining body of eleven.


    It says that John Mark, (ONE of the eleven), summoned the eleven.  Did he summon himself along with the other ten?

    Surely as one of the eleven, he would only be able to summon ten, IMO.  Perhaps it is meant that he gathered the eleven together (himself included), which I guess would make sense.

    July 15, 2012 at 9:09 pm#305983
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,05:48)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 15 2012,12:06)
    Hi Mike,

    You're right


    I'm going to save this quote from you, and use it whenever you disagree with me.   :D


    :)

    July 15, 2012 at 10:06 pm#305992
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,13:16)
    Yes, “was raised” works because Jesus had returned to the Glory of God………….


    Do you seriously think it makes sense to say “God was raised from the dead by God”?

    It seems to me that if someone was raised, there was someone ELSE doing the raising.

    July 15, 2012 at 11:43 pm#306003
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Colter @ July 16 2012,06:16)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,03:41)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,06:59)
    The reason given by Jesus for resurrecting himself from the dead was to prove his authority as it had been questioned.


    Hi Colter,

    You touch on many subjects that we should discuss sometime.  For example, you remember that Jesus could appear and pass through walls after the resurrection, but seem to forget he walked on water and mysteriously appeared on the other side of the sea even before he was crucified.  You remember that the disciples thought they were seeing a ghost, but seem to forget that Jesus quelled that fear by assuring them he was not, for “spirits do not have flesh and bone, as you see I have”.

    But these things can wait until later.  Right now, I want to know what “was raised” means in the following scriptures………..

    John 2:22
    After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

    John 21:14
    This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.

    Romans 4:25
    He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

    Romans 6:4
    We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    Romans 6:9
    For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

    Romans 7:4
    So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

    Romans 8:34
    Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
     
    1 Corinthians 15:4
    that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

    2 Corinthians 5:15
    And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

    If Jesus raised himself, could the phrase “was raised” even be used?  I still believe “I will raise it up” is metaphorical, like saying “Elijah WENT UP to heaven” when we know he was TAKEN UP to heaven.  Or like me saying “I'm flying to Denver” when we know I meant I was going to be a passenger on a plane that was flying to Denver.  You didn't comment on these things, so I have no way of knowing what you think about them.


    Yes, “was raised” works because Jesus had returned to the Glory of God, after the resurrection he speaks as Lord and God yet appears in the form of his former mortal tabernacle. Since he is not dead and returned in the new form the account is accurate when it says “was raised”.

    Elijah, Enoch and others unlettered in history were “translated”, they did not pass through mortal death. Jesus died a natural death in order to experience what the least of his beloved children are called to experience.

    Death and Translation

    (623.1) 55:2.1 Natural, physical death is not a mortal inevitability. The majority of advanced evolutionary beings, citizens on worlds existing in the final era of light and life, do not die; they are translated directly from the life in the flesh to the morontia existence.

    (623.2) 55:2.2 This experience of translation from the material life to the morontia state — fusion of the immortal soul with the indwelling Adjuster — increases in frequency commensurate with the evolutionary progress of the planet. At first only a few mortals in each age attain translation levels of spiritual progress, but with the onset of the successive ages of the Teacher Sons, more and more Adjuster fusions occur before the termination of the lengthening lives of these progressing mortals; and by the time of the terminal mission of the Teacher Sons, approximately one quarter of these superb mortals are exempt from natural death.

    (623.3) 55:2.3 Farther along in the era of light and life the midway creatures or their associates sense the approaching status of probable soul-Adjuster union and signify this to the destiny guardians, who in turn communicate these matters to the finaliter group under whose jurisdiction this mortal may be functioning; then there is issued the summons of the Planetary Sovereign for such a mortal to resign all planetary duties, bid farewell to the world of his origin, and repair to the inner temple of the Planetary Sovereign, there to await morontia transit, the translation flash, from the material domain of evolution to the morontia level of prespirit progression.

    (623.4) 55:2.4 When the family, friends, and working group of such a fusion candidate have forgathered in the morontia temple, they are distributed around the central stage whereon the fusion candidates are resting, meantime freely conversing with their assembled friends. A circle of intervening celestial personalities is arranged to protect the material mortals from the action of the energies manifest at the instant of the “life flash” which delivers the ascension candidate from the bonds of material flesh, thereby doing for such an evolutionary mortal everything that natural death does for those who are thereby delivered from the flesh.

    (623.5) 55:2.5 Many fusion candidates may be assembled in the spacious temple at the same time. And what a beautiful occasion when mortals thus forgather to witness the ascension of their loved ones in spiritual flames, and what a contrast to those earlier ages when mortals must commit their dead to the embrace of the terrestrial elements! The scenes of weeping and wailing characteristic of earlier epochs of human evolution are now replaced by ecstatic joy and the sublimest enthusiasm as these God-knowing mortals bid their loved ones a transient farewell as they are removed from their material associations by the spiritual fires of consuming grandeur and ascending glory. On worlds settled in light and life, “funerals” are occasions of supreme joy, profound satisfaction, and inexpressible hope.

    (623.6) 55:2.6 The souls of these progressing mortals are increasingly filled with faith, hope, and assurance. The spirit permeating those gathered around the translation shrine resembles that of the joyful friends and relatives who might assemble at a graduating exercise for one of their group, or who might come together to witness the conferring of some great honor upon one of their number. And it would be decidedly helpful if less advanced mortals could only learn to view natural death with something of this same cheerfulness and lightheartedness.

    (624.1) 55:2.7 Mortal observers can see nothing of their translated associates subsequent to the fusion flash. Such translated souls proceed by Adjuster transit direct to the resurrection hall of the appropriate morontia-training world. These transactions concerned with the translation of living human beings to the morontia world are supervised by an archangel who was assigned to such a world on the day when it was first settled in light and life.

    (624.2) 55:2.8 By the time a world attains the fourth stage of light and li
    fe, more than half the mortals leave the planet by translation from among the living. Such diminishment of death continues on and on, but I know of no system whose inhabited worlds, even though long settled in life, are entirely free from natural death as the technique of escape from the bonds of flesh. And until such a high state of planetary evolution is uniformly attained, the morontia-training worlds of the local universe must continue in service as educational and cultural spheres for the evolving morontia progressors. The elimination of death is theoretically possible, but it has not yet occurred according to my observation. Perhaps such a status may be attained during the faraway stretches of the succeeding epochs of the seventh stage of settled planetary life.

    (624.3) 55:2.9 The translated souls of the flowering ages of the settled spheres do not pass through the mansion worlds. Neither do they sojourn, as students, on the morontia worlds of the system or constellation. They do not pass through any of the earlier phases of morontia life. They are the only ascending mortals who so nearly escape the morontia transition from material existence to semispirit status. The initial experience of such Son-seized mortals in the ascension career is in the services of the progression worlds of the universe headquarters. And from these study worlds of Salvington they go back as teachers to the very worlds they passed by, subsequently going on inward to Paradise by the established route of mortal ascension.

    (624.4) 55:2.10 Could you but visit a planet in an advanced stage of development, you would quickly grasp the reasons for providing for the differential reception of ascending mortals on the mansion and higher morontia worlds. You would readily understand that beings passing on from such highly evolved spheres are prepared to resume their Paradise ascent far in advance of the average mortal arriving from a disordered and backward world like Urantia.

    (624.5) 55:2.11 No matter from what level of planetary attainment human beings may ascend to the morontia worlds, the seven mansion spheres afford them ample opportunity to gain in experience as teacher-students all of everything which they failed to pass through because of the advanced status of their native planets.

    (624.6) 55:2.12 The universe is unfailing in the application of these equalizing techniques designed to insure that no ascender shall be deprived of aught which is essential to his ascension experience.

    Colter


    Colter.

    You seem to claim that you know more than the apostles,even though they have been given the full dose of the Holy spirit.
    They obviously did not have the knowledge of the ub.as you have, what is your say about this?

    Was Jesus teachings whilst on earth; inadequate?
    Was he the master or was he not?

    wakeup.

    July 15, 2012 at 11:47 pm#306004
    Spock
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2012,09:06)

    Quote (Colter @ July 15 2012,13:16)
    Yes, “was raised” works because Jesus had returned to the Glory of God………….


    Do you seriously think it makes sense to say “God was raised from the dead by God”?

    It seems to me that if someone was raised, there was someone ELSE doing the raising.


    You know Mike, I think you deliberately don't want to understand, I have never said that God died, I have never said and do not believe that God birthed a new God jr in Bethlehem 2000 years ago.

    Simply put, the pre-existent, eternal Son of the living God (who is a spiritual being) incarnate in the mortal person of Jesus of Nazareth in a miraculous way only understood on Paradise.

    That spiritual being, who was known as Jesus, did not die, his mortal body died, it returned to the dust! The eternal spirit person of the Son returned three days later is a new form that resembled his former flesh.

    To me that is consistent with Jesus saying ” “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

    It is also consistent with saying that God (the Son of God) raised Jesus up again and reappeared to the apostles.

    You may not believe but do you at least understand what Im saying?

    Colter

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