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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 121 through 140 (of 25,960 total)
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  • December 18, 2004 at 1:27 am#4964
    Anonymous
    Guest

    T8, many thanks,
    I shall follow your advice and read…. (and, won't worry about what to pack anymore). I do mean, many thanks.

    December 18, 2004 at 7:04 pm#4968
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    OK.  One last quick response before I hop in the car!

    Nick,

    Quote
    The first scripture above tells us both are to be used but the NT interprets the OT.

    Then could you please tell me what the noble Bereans were using to verify Paul's doctrine?

    Quote
    As i pointed out Jesus did not raise himself so that scripture has to be interpreted according to what did happen.

    As I pointed out, the plain language of John's gospel says something different than everything else in scripture.  Can you explain why?

    T8,

    Glad to see you back.  Unfortunately it's just as I am taking a short leave.

    Quote
    Jesus partook of the flesh, he is not the flesh itself. It also says that all things were made through him. So if Jesus was created, then he was made through Jesus. It doesn't make sense.

    I am glad that you bring this up.  What exactly does it mean to create something through somebody else?  Does it mean, by your understanding, that “Jesus” actually did the work of creation, and God only commanded it?  In other words, “Jesus” hung the stars in place, laid the foundation of the world, and created life where there was none before, God only told him “how to do it”?

    Bear in mind:

    Psalm 8:
    “3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?”

    Nick and T8,

    I beg you both to plainly declare your faith.  Either stand by the statement, “I serve two gods”, or reject it.  If you do reject it, I would like to know why, since you both believe that “Jesus” is a god by his initial birth, and was only temporarily a man.  But if that is your faith, please just say so plainly.

    I look forward to chatting with you guys again when I get back!

    December 18, 2004 at 8:15 pm#4970
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    The Bereans did not have the New Testament so how can your question have any relevance to the issue? Yet they were able to grasp the truth about Jesus from their own study of the OT. They would put us all to shame if they had the advantage of the Spirit and the NT as well to work with.

    I gave you 7 scriptures in Acts alone sayng the Father raised Jesus. Jesus, himself, prophesised that he would “BE raised up on the third day” If you search the letters of Paul you will find at least 12 more saying the same as well as several saying he “was raised” You will find no scriptures saying Jesus raised himself, this fact is plastered all over the New Testament-there are few more clearly established matters in the bible than that Jesus would be raised by his Father. Do you agree? So , in the light of this fact you have to go back to John 2.19 and try to understand it in the light of what DID happen, as I have already explained.
    What should we do if we cannot grasp it's meaning? Reject the verse? Reject the chapter or perhaps the whole gospel of John? I think not. It would be better to put it back in the storehouse and wait for the Spirit who wrote it to expand our puny minds so we can understand it.

    Your repeated demand that we agree with your view of Jesus and his Father shows that you have not yet understood the scripture about the vine WIT.
    Jn 15f
    ” I AM the true vine and my Father is the vinegrower. He prunes away every barren branch but the fruitful ones he trims clean to increase their yield. You are clean already thanks to the word I have spoken to you.
    LIVE ON IN me, as I do in you . No more than a branch can bear fruit of itself apart from the vine can you bear fruit apart from me.
    I am the vine, you are the branches. He who LIVES IN me and I in him will produce abundantly but apart from me you can do nothing. A man who does not live in me is like a withered branch picked up to be thrown in the fire and burnt.
    If you LIVE IN me and my words stay part of you, you may ask what you will -it will be done for you. My Father has been glorified in your bearing much fruit and becoming my disciples..”

    How can a branch worship the vine of which it is a part?
    Anyone who thinks that Jesus came to be worshipped alone or to be worshipped in a trinity has not understood the gospel. He came to offer useless dead wood the chance to join with him in the vine that worships and glorifies his Father and escape the fire that is the alternative destiny of that wood.
    The vine serves and brings glory to the vinegrower, the Father.
    The branch serves the vine to serve the vinegrower.
    The branch lives in harmony with the vine both working towards the same purpose with the vine being more important than the branch which can be pruned away. No one has any part of that work until it becomes part of the vine by grafting. Without that grafting onto the vine it is useless and destined for the fire.
    No branch grafted into the vine will remain there unless it allows the sap of the Spirit flow through it and produce growth and fruit. It will also not grow leaves that can photosynthesise and produce sugars that flow back into and support the whole vine.
    Every branch joined to the vine is later trimmed because it will always overdo the growth and hinder the ripening of the fruit.
    No branch can guarantee that it will remain on the vine unless it proves useful to the vine and the vinegrower.

    December 18, 2004 at 10:04 pm#4971
    NickHassan
    Participant

    WIT ,
    There are plenty of scriptures sayng God alone is responsible for creation. But several in the NT confirm that nothing was created except through Jesus. There is no conflict here. God is enthroned in Heaven and he uses others as his agents of all His work.Jesus is the Agent of all the work of God's creation.
    As someone said George Bush invaded Iraq, but did he? No his soldiers did but as commander of the armed forces he invaded through his army. He takes responsibilty for the decision he made to send them and wins the glory or shame for the result.

    Did David defeat all his enemies? Yes. But he too did it through his armies and his greatly trusted commanders. Did God test Job? Yes. But he used Satan as the agent for that testing. Did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes. But study of the detail shows us angels did the destroying. Do the eyes of God range all over the earth? Yes but it is the work of His agents,the angels to observe and record the actions of men on earth. Did God give Moses the Ten Commandments? Yes but scripture tells us they were given through angels.

    Jesus as the firstborn and only begotten Son of God was instrumental in creating angels and men and placing the moon and stars in their place according to the Word of God.

    Yet who gives him the respect he is due for his mighty works?

    December 19, 2004 at 1:15 am#4973
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 19 2004,14:04)
    Nick and T8,

    I beg you both to plainly declare your faith.  Either stand by the statement, “I serve two gods”, or reject it.  If you do reject it, I would like to know why, since you both believe that “Jesus” is a god by his initial birth, and was only temporarily a man.  But if that is your faith, please just say so plainly.


    To WIT,

    There are many gods and many lords, but for me there is but one God the Father. I stand by this statement.

    I also teach the following:
    There are many who have God's nature including Jesus and even the angels/sons of God (ben eloyhim). But there is only one God in identity, the Father. This one true God shares his nature and those who receive his nature can be called gods, sons or images.

    John 10:34-35
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'? (theos)
    35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

    Psalm 82:6
    6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; (eloyhim)
       you are all sons of the Most High.'

    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,

    Colossians 1:15
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    2 Peter 1:4
    Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    So as you can see, I recognise that there are many gods/sons, but I worship one God as the Most High God from whom all good things come. I also recognise that he is the source of all sons/gods, so in that sense he is the one true God, (original God). The sons of God are images of the true God as opposed to false gods.

    December 19, 2004 at 9:29 pm#4981
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Wit,
    Psalm 8 speaks of Jesus as “Son of Man” so is speaking prophetically about his human existence-lower then than the angels- but then later crowned with glory and ruler of all after his victory in death.
    It is quoted in Hebrews 2 but only after establishing his glorious original existence as “Son of God” who made the world and upholds all things by the word of his power in Hebrews 1.

    December 20, 2004 at 6:17 pm#4982
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    When Jesus ascended where did he go? The apostles saw him go up into 'the heavens' but we know from scripture he went to 'heaven' where he is now seated at the right hand of his Father. We do not follow him there though we are now already with him in his Spirit there[Coll3.1-3]
    We do not go to heaven. No scripture says we do.The new Jerusalem is on the new earth as Rev 21 tell us and there we hope to dwell with God.

    Jn 14.23 “We will come to him and make our dwelling place with him”

    Jesus also said ” where I go you cannot come”

    Not only did he go to heaven to his Father, as did Elijah and Enoch, but he said he would go back to where he came from, to the glory he had with the Father before the world began. He is more unique than any man.
    What do others think?

    December 23, 2004 at 5:01 am#5020
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 19 2004,14:04)
    I am glad that you bring this up. What exactly does it mean to create something through somebody else? Does it mean, by your understanding, that “Jesus” actually did the work of creation, and God only commanded it? In other words, “Jesus” hung the stars in place, laid the foundation of the world, and created life where there was none before, God only told him “how to do it”?

    Bear in mind:

    Psalm 8:
    “3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?”


    To WIT,

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Yes it is God who created all things. Just as it is God who saves sinners, even if he does it through the preaching of an Evangelist.

    December 27, 2004 at 10:07 pm#5058
    liljon
    Participant

    Jesus is God Almighty
    He forgave sin
    Created the world and claimed to be him in John 8:58

    December 27, 2004 at 10:47 pm#5059
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Liljon,
    If Jesus is God almighty then how can he also be the Son of God? Jesus prayed to God and told us to do the same. Was he really praying to himself and asking us to do the same? Was he saying the Father does not exist separate from him? No.

    Jn 8.58″ I solemnly declare it.:before Abraham came to be I am”
    Does that say Jesus IS Almighty God. No it says he existed before Abraham. Is that a problem? No. Did any beings exist before Abraham. Yes the Son of God and the other sons [and angels]as shown in Jb ch 1,2 and 38
    Jn 1 1-3
    ” In the beginning was the Word and the Word was in God's presence and the Word was God. He was present to God in the beginning .Through him all things came into being and apart from him nothing came to be”
    The Word or Logos is Jesus prior to his partaking of a body and he is shown again as the leader of the armies of heaven who comes as shepherd of the nations in Rev 19.11f

    So the Son of God was with God in the beginning, and all of God's creation is the work of the Son of God.If he was with God then he cannot be that God.
    Genesis1.1 says God created the world but as you see in Jn 1 Jesus was the agent of that work.
    Jesus forgave sins but he also gave his apostles the power to do the same .Does that make them Almighty God too?

    Thsi is not trickery but only showing you what is written.

    December 28, 2004 at 7:53 pm#5071
    liljon
    Participant

    God can be both at the same time plus after his ascension he was prayed to
    1 Cor 1
    Acts 7:55-60

    December 28, 2004 at 8:17 pm#5072
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LJ,
    Acts 7,55f re Stephen
    “But being full of the Holy Spirit he gazed intently into heaven and saw the Glory of God,
    AND
    Jesus standing at the right hand of God”

    1Cor 1.9
    ” God is faithful,through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord”

    So there are two in heaven the Father and the Son of God at His right hand.
    We are called into fellowship with the Father by being one with Jesus in his death and resurrection.

    I would hope my spirit too would be joined with Jesus at my passing and would call on him to receive it too.Wouldn't you?

    December 28, 2004 at 9:10 pm#5073
    NickHassan
    Participant

    ps jesus spent a lot of his time on earth speaking of his Father and his relationship with Him. He is the image of the Father and was filled with the Spirit of God so could say “whoever has seen me has seen the Father”and “my Father and I are one”.They are one but are separate too. Father and Son.

    December 28, 2004 at 10:31 pm#5074
    liljon
    Participant

    You ONLY call upon God in prayer
    “Call upon the name of the Lord” occurs five times in the KJV:
    Gen. 4:26, “And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
    “…calling on the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Psalm 116:13, “I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.”
    “…and on the name of Jehovah I shall call,” (NWT).
    Psalm 116:17, “I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD.”
    “…and on the name of Jehovah I shall call,” (NWT).
    Zeph. 3:9, “For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.”
    “…to call upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
    “For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved,” (NWT).
    “Call on the name of the Lord” occurs four times in the KJV
    1 Kings 18:24, “And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God.”
    “…call upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    2 Kings 5:11, “But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.”
    “…call upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Joel 2:32, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”
    “…calls upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Acts 2:21, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
    “…calls upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    taken from carm.org

    December 29, 2004 at 12:20 am#5076
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    So your premise is that if anyone calls Jesus Lord that proves Jesus is God the Father?I think that is in need of deeper understanding
    1 cor 1.3 “Grace and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ”
    1.9 “God is faithful and it was He who called you to fellowship WITH His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord”
    Both these scriptures speak of God the Father AND our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is our Lord and the Father is his Lord.That is the line of authority.The Father is the Gardener, Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches.
    Jn 1.” Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the Lord” -Jesus comes in the name of his Lord.the Father.

    December 29, 2004 at 9:44 pm#5096
    liljon
    Participant

    Jesus is called YHVH not just Lord(Adoni,Kurios)

    December 29, 2004 at 10:59 pm#5098
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    Jesus came in the name of YHWH. And as Zech 14 tells us he will come again in the name of his Father. The Spirit of God filled Jesus and still works on earth in the believers.
    But the Father is in heaven from where he observes the actions of men.

    December 30, 2004 at 8:00 pm#5109
    liljon
    Participant

    Zechariah says YHWH himself will come

    December 30, 2004 at 8:03 pm#5110
    NickHassan
    Participant

    I know liljon but it will be the feet of Jesus standing on the Mount of Olives.He will be returning in the Name of his Father to rule the world. The Father will delegate the work to His Son.

    December 30, 2004 at 8:14 pm#5111
    liljon
    Participant

    Because Jesus is YHWH!

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