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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 28, 2008 at 10:01 am#103218
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    adam & gene,

    word (child) was existing in the bossom of God.The God used to have inner conversation with his child,word,messiah,craftmanship of God, and he was planned as a sacrificial redeemer by appearing as fleshy and bloody human being.God already set salvation plan as God can know everything in advance, while predetermining everything and planning accordingly as per the dispensation of times.Therefore,the God ,our father made him become flesh to take his foreordained portfolios : a king, a priest, a prophert/messiah.
    pulivarthy

    August 28, 2008 at 10:26 am#103221
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,17:20)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,15:47)
    Hi Gene.

    If “Before Abraham I am” means that 'before Abraham I was planned', then the God who said he was the “I AM that I AM” would be the God of the “I am planned I am planned”.


    t8,

    You are assuming that the “I am” in this passage is the SAME “I AM” of the OT which was a proper name God gave himself.  In the context of the NT it does not appear to be a proper name at all.

    Mandy


    Actually that is debatable because it was YHWH that said “I am who I am”. He was describing himself and told Moses to say tell them that I am sent you, which would be like me saying, tell them that the handsome one sent you if you get my drift. OK, I am being very optimistic.

    But even if it is a name or not, the point is that I am today in English means that you exist. In Hebrew I think “I am that I am” means the everexisting one. But I would need to check that.

    In Greek, ego eimi was a common use of words. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” None of these uses were used to say that they existed in God's mind somewhere in the past.

    Jesus also regularly used ego eimi. He used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in no instance was he saying that he didn't exist yet, or that he existed only as a concept. e.g., In John 8:58, Jesus said, “I am the bread of life”.

    August 28, 2008 at 10:35 am#103223
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 28 2008,20:15)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,16:05)
    T8…point is you do not know in what way he was before Abraham, was it in Gods plan or was it he existed as a being. You honestly do not know its pure conjecture on your part. Don't you think Jesus had enough sense to simply say i was alive and existed before Abraham was Born, if that was his point he wanted to make.Why is all your proof texts so vague and not one specifically say Jesus was a live person or being before He ever came to earth. Why is that nowhere in scripture, don't you think that would be very important point to make about him. Why leave it out and leave it to conjectures and vague interpretations. IMO

    Preexistences view of Jesus is He is a GOD MAN, my view is He is a Man just like me in every way without any advantage of any kind and the same GOD who saved Him can Save Me also in the same way, I am a JOINT HEIR with him He is my elder brother who the Father placed over me as well as the whole family of God the Father. He is the perfect example of how to be saved, and it is the same way he was saved, and it was all by the (GRACE) of GOD.

    Peace to you and yours………..gene


    Amen to that post brother Gene, what a wonderful post it is. If they realise they can not make Jesus 'a god' or 'a demi-god' but as a brother to us.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam


    Everything you just said could also point to what you said Gene. There is nothing the verse to say that “I am” means that he existed as a thought before Abraham either and therefore it to is conjecture if you believe your own argument.

    It's just that you choose to believe that view even though the text doesn't describe that view at all.

    What other verses in scripture that use “ego eimi”, use it to mean existing as a thought or plan, but not actually existing in person. Feel free to list them all in a post in this discussion.

    I look forward to seeing the list.

    August 28, 2008 at 12:26 pm#103233
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,22:26)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,17:20)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,15:47)
    Hi Gene.

    If “Before Abraham I am” means that 'before Abraham I was planned', then the God who said he was the “I AM that I AM” would be the God of the “I am planned I am planned”.


    t8,

    You are assuming that the “I am” in this passage is the SAME “I AM” of the OT which was a proper name God gave himself.  In the context of the NT it does not appear to be a proper name at all.

    Mandy


    Actually that is debatable because it was YHWH that said “I am who I am”. He was describing himself and told Moses to say tell them that I am sent you, which would be like me saying, tell them that the handsome one sent you if you get my drift. OK, I am being very optimistic.

    But even if it is a name or not, the point is that I am today in English means that you exist. In Hebrew I think “I am that I am” means the everexisting one. But I would need to check that.

    In Greek, ego eimi was a common use of words. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” None of these uses were used to say that they existed in God's mind somewhere in the past.

    Jesus also regularly used ego eimi. He used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in no instance was he saying that he didn't exist yet, or that he existed only as a concept. e.g., In John 8:58, Jesus said, “I am the bread of life”.


    Hi t8,

    Thanks for your post.

    If Jesus was saying that he preexisted in the “I am” statement, he sure chose a strange time to introduce that concept. There was no explaination given after that statement either. All is pretty vague, if you ask me.

    Also, it's difficult to use other examples of the words “I am” as I believe they apply to something different. Taken in context, you want to believe that Jesus meant to say he existed before Abraham physically OR spiritually OR in some real way, but we can only infer that by such a statement. It's not an absolute proof of preexistence, I guess is what I'm trying to say. He could have very well meant that he existed as God's potential Son. Just because the other examples of the use of “I am” doesn't pan out that way doesn't mean it couldn't be true.

    The use of “I am” in the “…before Abraham I am….” context appears to be a special construction of words. It is unlikely that Jesus would be claiming to be God or even a preexistent thing at this time in the NT story. It doesn't ring true with the tenor of the NT, imo. It certainly does not ring true with the tenor of the OT at all, imo.

    Thanks,
    Mandy

    August 28, 2008 at 4:55 pm#103248
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..> according to Jeff Benners Mechanical translation of Genesis, the name of Lord in Hebrew is (HE EXISTS) And if we add Elohim or GOD to it we come up with Lord God or HE EXISTS WITH POWERS. This would be the correct way of understanding the LORD GOD> T8, You saying Jesus meant that in the new testament is pure conjecture on your part.

    When they came to arrest Jesus in the garden they ask who was Jesus, an He said I am, People try to make that mean He is God and insist that when the Roman guards fell back that represented some kind of proof, but in fact they came out to get Jesus expecting a fight and the term fall back is what they always did in preparation for battle Roman soldiers grouped themselves. When the Soldiers heard Jesus answer and saw there was a group with Him the full well expected a battle, so they fell back in formation for a battle. Those Roman soldiers would have never fell back in fear of the words (I AM) they never even heard of the (I AM) so why would they do that then, only one answer they were reading for a battle.

    This whole thing of making that words I AM in the new testament something supernatural is pure speculation and conjecture with (NO) proof whatsoever. To use the word of Jesus telling the Pharisees (before Abraham, i am) is also conjecture and weak at best. Preexistences like trinitarians all use weak or vague scriptures to support their theologies and Have to go to this never ending GREEK meanings for words which show meanings of those words that actually disprove there points in many cases, Question, why is it so heard to prove for you people, why except something that is not specifically addressed in the scriptures anyway. And if indeed Jesus was a preexisting being I really believe it would have been made very clear in scripture so there would be no doubt don't you, and if it isn't why (ASSUME) it then.

    peace to you and yours……….gene

    August 29, 2008 at 8:54 am#103331
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2008,04:55)
    T8…..> according to Jeff Benners Mechanical translation of Genesis, the name of Lord in Hebrew is (HE EXISTS) And if we add Elohim or GOD to it we come up with Lord God or HE EXISTS WITH POWERS. This would be the correct way of understanding the LORD GOD> T8, You saying Jesus meant that in the new testament is pure conjecture on your part.

    When they came to arrest Jesus in the garden they ask who was Jesus, an He said I am, People try to make that mean He is God and insist that when the Roman guards fell back that represented some kind of proof, but in fact they came out to get Jesus expecting a fight and the term fall back is what they always did in preparation for battle Roman soldiers grouped themselves. When the Soldiers heard Jesus answer and saw there was a group with Him the full well expected a battle, so they fell back in formation for a battle. Those Roman soldiers would have never fell back in fear of the words (I AM) they never even heard of the (I AM) so why would they do that then, only one answer they were reading for a battle.

    This whole thing of making that words I AM in the new testament something supernatural is pure speculation and conjecture with (NO) proof whatsoever. To use the word of Jesus telling the Pharisees (before Abraham, i am) is also conjecture and weak at best. Preexistences like trinitarians all use weak or vague scriptures to support their theologies and Have to go to this never ending GREEK meanings for words which show meanings of those words that actually disprove there points in many cases, Question, why is it so heard to prove for you people, why except something that is not specifically addressed in the scriptures anyway. And if indeed Jesus was a preexisting being I really believe it would have been made very clear in scripture so there would be no doubt don't you, and if it isn't why (ASSUME) it then.

    peace to you and yours……….gene


    hi gene,
    15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
    He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,[from colossians :1]

    scripture is clear on preexistence of Jesus. I pray that you will come out of that notion.

    with love,
    pulivarthy

    August 29, 2008 at 3:15 pm#103353
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Pulivarthy……….If it is so clear why has it been argued for centuries then. I have not found it clearly stated in any bible i have read. You can not make the point that Jesus preexisted without adding to the text some conjecture and that to me is forcing the text to say something it does not specifically say.

    Not to mention there would be no point for God to do it that way. What would the perfection of an all ready perfect being prove to us, what did He truly have to risk and to overcome seeing He really was not (TRULY) the same as us. The whole idea of Jesus being a preexistent being goes against the whole thing that God wanted to show us and it was that He could take a 100% purely HUMAN MAN who had no other advantage then us and perfect Him and raise Him from the dead. Now that proves something to all humanity, Not this idea of some super being doing it, what does that prove to me or anyone else for that matter. This whole concept of separating Jesus from our (exact) likeness is totally against what God was showing man kind. Creating Jesus as a GOD or Super beings of preexistence origins is nothing more than IDOLATRY. It creates the man of sin spoken of in 2 Thes, and Just as it says Jesus will destory this (LIE) that people have come to believe when He returns, It will be the first thing He will do. He will (abolish) this lie completely. Many will be shocked when He tell them He is Not a GOD and He did not preexist as a being before His berth . IMO

    peace to you……….gene

    August 30, 2008 at 2:25 am#103385
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 30 2008,03:15)
    Pulivarthy……….If it is so clear why has it been argued for centuries then. I have not found it clearly stated in any bible i have read. You can not make the point that Jesus preexisted without adding to the text some conjecture and that to me is forcing the text to say something it does not specifically say.

    Not to mention there would be no point for God to do it that way. What would the perfection of an all ready perfect being prove to us, what did He truly have to risk and to overcome seeing He really was not (TRULY) the same as us. The whole idea of Jesus being a preexistent being goes against the whole thing that God wanted to show us and it was that He could take a 100% purely HUMAN MAN who had no other advantage then us and perfect Him and raise Him from the dead. Now that proves something to all humanity, Not this idea of some super being doing it, what does that prove to me or anyone else for that matter. This whole concept of separating Jesus from our (exact) likeness is totally against what God was showing man kind. Creating Jesus as a GOD or Super beings of preexistence origins is nothing more than IDOLATRY. It creates the man of sin spoken of in 2 Thes,  and Just as it says Jesus will destory this (LIE) that people have come to believe when He returns, It will be the first thing He will do. He will (abolish) this lie completely. Many will be shocked when He tell them He is Not a GOD and He did not preexist as a being before His berth . IMO

    peace to you……….gene


    i'm sorry Brother Gene..but you seem to get further and further away from scripture with each post ???

    Ok..lemme see you rationalize this line of reasoning..here goes

    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    I know you don't believe in the trinity so who was God talking to in this scripture?

    John 1:2-3..2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    If GOD was not talking to Jesus in Genesis then explain the above verse?

    John 3:17…17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    Why use the word send? Does that not imply he came from somewhere? If what you say is true shouldn't this verse read more like…”For God did not have his son born into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him”

    1 Corinthians 10:1-4 … 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    Explain how they did this if Christ was not yet in physical existence?

    Colossians 1:15-17… 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    I'm sure you have a good answer for the last question so what does verse 16 mean here?

    Philippians 2:7… 7but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    Does not the phrase, “made himself nothing, taking the very nature”…imply that he had another nature before? If not, why the use of the words “made” and “taking”? Does not this verse clearly show a physical CHANGE took place?

    Just for reference:

    nature- 1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence b: disposition, temperament

    Notice that word “constitution”..lets reference that

    constitution- 2 a: the physical makeup of the individual especially with respect to the health, strength, and appearance of the body b: the structure, composition, physical makeup, or nature of something

    Now think about this for a moment…Could this scripture at Phillipians be true if Jesus did not Pre-exist?

    Hebrews 1:1-2…1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Same question as the last?

    Brother Gene..no offence…and I really don't hope you take this personal..but you really have to rid yourself of your exeigesis..its starting to shine thru really clear

    August 30, 2008 at 2:41 am#103388
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES

    August 30, 2008 at 6:28 am#103398
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    hi dirty connections,
    Thank you for befitting quotations to Mr. Gene for convincing him on preexistence of Jesus.I pray thay Go, the father will certainly and on one day dispel all his false beliefs(non-trinty) and his own annoted conjectures to the scripture given unto us.
    with love in christ,
    pulivarthy.

    August 30, 2008 at 6:31 am#103399
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    hi dirty connections,
    Thank you for befitting quotations to Mr. Gene for convincing him on preexistence of Jesus.I pray that GOD, the father will certainly and on one day dispel all his false beliefs(non-trinty) and his own annoted conjectures to the scripture given unto us.
    with love in christ,
    pulivarthy.

    August 30, 2008 at 7:06 am#103402
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 30 2008,14:41)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES


    Hello! Think that Gen will ever understand that Jesus was created by God before the world was?
    I am happy that you and a few others do understand, shows Gods Holy Spirit is working in us.
    Peaxe and Love Irene

    August 30, 2008 at 6:42 pm#103441
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene

    August 30, 2008 at 7:06 pm#103446
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2008,06:42)
    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene


    Amen, I agree!

    Mandy

    August 31, 2008 at 3:52 am#103474
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 30 2008,19:06)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 30 2008,14:41)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES


    Hello! Think that Gen will ever understand that Jesus was created by God before the world was?
    I am happy that you and a few others do understand, shows Gods Holy Spirit is working in us.
    Peaxe and Love Irene


    there is no “understanding” that which is false…. Christians have believed that Jesus is eternal and uncreated for thousands of years prior to this forum, and they will continue to do so into eternity… why? simply because it is the truth…

    The Nicene Creed
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
    And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

    AMEN.”

    …. lest anyone get hung up on the word “catholic”, this does not refer to the ROMAN Catholic Church, it (the word “catholic”) simply means “universal”…. the RCC does not have a copyright on the word “catholic” even though when we see that word, most of us equate “catholic” with “Roman Catholic”…. in fact when this statement of faith was written in the 4th century,the organization we recognize today as the RCC did not even exist.

    So people can very well call themselves “Christians” and still deny the doctrines of the Christian faith, it is a free country and people are quite free to be mistaken. But make no mistake about this: historically, Christianity has affirmed the eternality of the Son as well as the Trinity. People may deny these doctrines and for some strange reason want to call themselves Christians… after all, cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, The Way International, etc etc etc all claim to be Christians or even “the only true Christians”, but really, they are pretenders, the false teachers teaching doctrines of demons and antichrist that we are warned about in the Scriptures, for if you deny these central, crucial, non-negotiable tenets of the Christian faith, you really aren't a Christian at all, not in the true historical sense of the term ….. and if believing these doctrines was decided upon as necessary requisite beliefs in order to be a Christian BY Christians themselves, well if Christians can't be the ones to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, then who can? The fact that so many want to claim the title “Christian” for themselves when their beliefs are SO far from historical Christianity's core beliefs, has sadly nearly emptied the word of any meaning at all…. kind of like how the word “Protestant” used to mean that someone held to a set of distinctive beliefs, until eventually the word became almost meaningless because people began to deny many of the doctrines held by the Reformers… sadly, so the same thing is happening today with so many people denying doctrines of the Christian faith, and calling themselves “Christian”…. just strange really….

    blessings,
    Ken

    August 31, 2008 at 4:11 am#103476
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2008,06:42)
    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene


    Amen to that post my brother Gene. They should understand this simple truth that Jesus never existed as some being prior to his birth except in the mind and perfect plan of God otherwise they prove Mormonism which believes pre-existence of souls of men prior to their birth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam

    August 31, 2008 at 4:20 am#103480
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:52)

    Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 30 2008,19:06)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 30 2008,14:41)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES


    Hello! Think that Gen will ever understand that Jesus was created by God before the world was?
    I am happy that you and a few others do understand, shows Gods Holy Spirit is working in us.
    Peaxe and Love Irene


    there is no “understanding” that which is false…. Christians have believed that Jesus is eternal and uncreated for thousands of years prior to this forum, and they will continue to do so into eternity… why? simply because it is the truth…

    The Nicene Creed
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
        And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
        And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.  And I believe one holy catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

    AMEN.”

    …. lest anyone get hung up on the word “catholic”, this does not refer to the ROMAN Catholic Church, it (the word “catholic”) simply means “universal”…. the RCC does not have a copyright on the word “catholic” even though when we see that word, most of us equate “catholic” with “Roman Catholic”…. in fact when this statement of faith was written in the 4th century,the organization we recognize today as the RCC did not even exist.

    So people can very well call themselves “Christians” and still deny the doctrines of the Christian faith, it is a free country and people are quite free to be mistaken. But make no mistake about this: historically, Christianity has affirmed the eternality of the Son as well as the Trinity. People may deny these doctrines and for some strange reason want to call themselves Christians… after all, cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, The Way International, etc etc etc all claim to be Christians or even “the only true Christians”, but really, they are pretenders, the false teachers teaching doctrines of demons and antichrist that we are warned about in the Scriptures, for if you deny these central, crucial, non-negotiable tenets of the Christian faith, you really aren't a Christian at all, not in the true historical sense of the term ….. and if believing these doctrines was decided upon as necessary requisite beliefs in order to be a Christian BY Christians themselves, well if Christians can't be the ones to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, then who can? The fact that so many want to claim the title “Christian” for themselves when their beliefs are SO far from historical Christianity's core beliefs, has sadly nearly emptied the word of any meaning at all…. kind of like how the word “Protestant” used to mean that someone held to a set of distinctive beliefs, until eventually the word became almost meaningless because people began to deny many of the doctr
    ines held by the Reformers… sadly, so the same thing is happening today with so many people denying doctrines of the Christian faith, and calling themselves “Christian”…. just strange really….

    blessings,
    Ken


    Sorry brother…

    But the Nicene Creed holds NO weight with true followers of Christ. To put it bluntly Constantine and the creators of the Nicene creed are the alpha of that which Jesus prophesied here..

    Matthew 24:8-14
    8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    9″Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

    1 Timothy 4:1-3
    1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
    3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    So let me put what i am tryinf to say in a condensed form. Simply put the Scriptures foretold a great apostasy, or falling away from the true faith. The symbolic weeds of Jesus’ parable, that is, counterfeit Christians, would try to choke out the symbolic wheat, or true Christians, those anointed with God’s spirit. The parable reveals that the spread of false Christianity, promoted by God’s archenemy, the Devil, was about to begin, “while men were sleeping.” This took place after the death of Christ’s faithful apostles, during a period of spiritual drowsiness. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) As foretold by the apostles, many counterfeit Christians wormed their way into the fold. (Acts 20:29, 30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; 2 Peter 2:1-3) John was the last of the apostles to die. In about the year 98 C.E., he wrote that “the last hour,” the final part of the apostolic period, had already commenced.—1 John 2:18, 19.

    With the alliance of religion and political power sealed by Roman emperor Constantine, the spiritual, doctrinal, and moral condition of Christendom declined. Many historians agree that “the triumph of the Church during the fourth century” was, from the Christian point of view, “a disaster.” ‘Christendom lost her high moral level’ and accepted many practices and philosophies from paganism, such as “the cult of Mary” and the adoration of the “saints,” as well as the concept of the Trinity.

    August 31, 2008 at 4:21 am#103481
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 31 2008,16:11)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2008,06:42)
    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene


    Amen to that post my brother Gene. They should understand this simple truth that Jesus never existed as some being prior to his birth except in the mind and perfect plan of God otherwise they prove Mormonism which believes pre-existence of souls of men prior to their birth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam


    Again…another grossly wrong interpretation of our beliefs…

    August 31, 2008 at 8:00 am#103500
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 31 2008,18:11)
    Amen to that post my brother Gene. They should understand this simple truth that Jesus never existed as some being prior to his birth except in the mind and perfect plan of God otherwise they prove Mormonism which believes pre-existence of souls of men prior to their birth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam


    Hi Adam, can you explain these verses to me please.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
    Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
    Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
    Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
    Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
    Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
    Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,

    The above verses clearly show the pre-existence of Jesus as the Word of God who was there from the beginning.

    Also

    Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

    Clearly showing pre-existence.

    August 31, 2008 at 8:07 am#103502
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:52)
    well if Christians can't be the ones to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, then who can?


    Thank God this isn't true!!

    The Lord knows who's are his. Man cannot know the heart of another man.

    Mandy

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