Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

Participant

Mandy……i believe the life in Jesus is the Spirit of God in Him and the life in us is that same spirit also, it all comes from one source and that is the Father. WE are called brothers of Christ not dependents of Christ. WE are dependent on the same God and Father Jesus is dependent on for His life. That GOD MAY BE ALL AND IN ALL. This same life is in All who have His spirit in them also, Jesus said whoever believed in Him (HAS) passed from Judgment to LIFE, so if we have passed to life then we have life within ourselves also.

I maintain what gives life to the vine is one spirit and we are members of that one vine and drink of that one spirit. The branches are not what decides if it will produce fruit it is the Spirit going through the vine and branches that produces the fruit. All the branches that God has grafted into the vine will produce fruit. IMO

love and peace to you and yours……………gene

August 28, 2008 at 3:25 am#103160

Participant

Hi GB,
But of course all men have not drunk of that Spirit.
You must be reborn from above.
Not by the will of man.

August 28, 2008 at 3:31 am#103162

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)

T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

No offence Gene, but Jesus said “Before Abraham I am”.

He didn't say “Before Abraham I was planned”.

To get your interpretation, you need to add to the words, which is the very thing you said I was doing, yet it is you doing it.

Can you see that?

August 28, 2008 at 3:34 am#103164

Participant

Nick…….All men have not been grafted into that vine. Who said all men have been grafted in. Whats your point Nick.

August 28, 2008 at 3:36 am#103165

Participant

Hi GB,
There is no universal salvation.

August 28, 2008 at 3:40 am#103168

http://www.bju.edu/bible….=8&w=58

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 28 2008,11:48)

It does say before Abraham was, and then it does say I am..
It does not say before Abraham I was. I am is in the present tense.
I would suspect that not even the Hebrews talked like that.

If I said “before the rain came, I am”, you would ask, “you are what?”
That is an incomplete sentence that I still say leaves the interpretation open to conjecture.

But I understand that you will see what you want to see.
That is perfectly fine with me. I just do not see the same thing.

Tim

Hi Tim. “I am” is as follows:

I = ego (think about that word in English)
Am = eimi. It means to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

Usage of eimi in the KJV:
I am , am, it is, be, I was, have been,

So it is not restricted to the grammatical error you are pointing out. If that were so, then Jesus needed to be corrected because in English we don't say “Before Wednesday was, I am”. Rather you say I was there before Wednesday.

August 28, 2008 at 3:47 am#103169

Participant

Hi Gene.

If “Before Abraham I am” means that 'before Abraham I was planned', then the God who said he was the “I AM that I AM” would be the God of the “I am planned I am planned”.

August 28, 2008 at 4:05 am#103174

Participant

T8…point is you do not know in what way he was before Abraham, was it in Gods plan or was it he existed as a being. You honestly do not know its pure conjecture on your part. Don't you think Jesus had enough sense to simply say i was alive and existed before Abraham was Born, if that was his point he wanted to make.Why is all your proof texts so vague and not one specifically say Jesus was a live person or being before He ever came to earth. Why is that nowhere in scripture, don't you think that would be very important point to make about him. Why leave it out and leave it to conjectures and vague interpretations. IMO

Preexistences view of Jesus is He is a GOD MAN, my view is He is a Man just like me in every way without any advantage of any kind and the same GOD who saved Him can Save Me also in the same way, I am a JOINT HEIR with him He is my elder brother who the Father placed over me as well as the whole family of God the Father. He is the perfect example of how to be saved, and it is the same way he was saved, and it was all by the (GRACE) of GOD.

Peace to you and yours………..gene

August 28, 2008 at 4:14 am#103178

Participant

Given the context of the question “Are you older than Abraham”, Jesus uttered those words.

There is no mention of ego being a plan. It was a straight forward question followed by a straight forward answer. The answer also really annoyed the Pharisees. If he was just saying that he was in God's plan, then you could say that all of us are, and that the meaning would then have no significance and certainly shouldn't have provoked anger.

If this is a riddle and it turns out that what you say is correct, even though the question and the answer mention it not, then Abraham could rightly say, “Before Abraham I am” speaking of himself and then of God's plan for him. I could do the same. Before Abraham I was part of God's plan. Then Abraham could say “but I was before you, and I could say that I was thought of before you and then there is no end to who was before Abraham using the meaning you give it.

August 28, 2008 at 4:31 am#103180

Participant

T8….Jesus was mentioned from Genesis as the seed of the women Jesus full well knew that he was in the plan of God way before Abraham was born. To make the text say He was born before Abraham existed is Forcing the text T8. Peter said plainly Jesus was (FOREORDAINED). That imply s He did not exist at the time and went on to say BUT was MANIFESTED in (OUR TIME). Why is it so hard for you and others to see Jesus as a simple ordinary Man Of GOD. A human being who God the Father perfected and saved and placed over us all and gave him the honor as the first begotten from the dead and the first to inherit eternal life.What is there in man that just cant believe that, is it people just don't believe God could really do the to an ordinary human being, just like ourselves in (EVERY) way.

peace brother …………gene

August 28, 2008 at 4:34 am#103181

Participant

Hi GB,
Do you think that because Jesus was foreordained
that precludes any other discussion as to his origins?

August 28, 2008 at 4:41 am#103185

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,16:31)

To make the text say He was born before Abraham existed is Forcing the text T8.

Forcing the text?

I think your bias is making you see that Gene.

When most people read

Q: “Are you older than Abraham”?
A: “Before Abraham, I am”?

They see it for what it is saying. They don't see that it is saying he was planned before Abraham lived do they? If they do see it the way you are saying it is, then they are obviously getting the context from elsewhere in order to see it in that view, because the context of those verses above are not talking about any plan. That is the bit you are adding Gene.

The Pharisees question had nothing to do with a plan, they were simply asking “Are YOU older than Abraham?”.

YOU meaning Jesus, not a plan.

August 28, 2008 at 4:47 am#103187

Tiffany

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,16:31)

peace brother …………gene

Gen What does preeminence mean to you? It is not hard at all to see Jesus as a Human being. But I also see Him as a Spirit Being before the world was. That part my Friend you need to study more, because there are clear Scriptures that prove it. I know you don't want to believe this, your mind is closed just like W.J. is with the trinity, just to show you an example.
Peace and Love Irene

August 28, 2008 at 5:20 am#103191

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,15:47)

Hi Gene.

If “Before Abraham I am” means that 'before Abraham I was planned', then the God who said he was the “I AM that I AM” would be the God of the “I am planned I am planned”.

t8,

You are assuming that the “I am” in this passage is the SAME “I AM” of the OT which was a proper name God gave himself. In the context of the NT it does not appear to be a proper name at all.

Mandy

August 28, 2008 at 5:24 am#103192

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 28 2008,16:34)

Hi GB,
Do you think that because Jesus was foreordained
that precludes any other discussion as to his origins?

Nick……..Yes it does preclude it because to be foreordained does not imply preexistence at all, but shows a future existence not a past one. We are said to be foreknown can we say then we have preexisted, when God said He foreordained Jeremiah did that meant he preexisted also, or what about Cyrus did He preexist 200 year before he was born then.

The question is why do you want to insist Jesus had to preexist as a unknown Super being before he came to earth. And why is every scripture you post can be taken either way and why has this been argued for centuries by scholars if it is so clear then.

August 28, 2008 at 5:32 am#103193

Participant

T8….I know the Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus by trying to make Him mean things he did really say, and this was just another attempt to do that. But Jesus did not say He was alive before Abraham did He and if He was why did he Just not say that then, Trying to us the i am thing as proof text is forcing you theologies i believe T8. We may have to agree to disagree on this .

love and peace to you and yours………..gene

August 28, 2008 at 6:47 am#103201