Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’. (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 1 week, 3 days ago by Keith.

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August 15, 2008 at 1:55 pm#101565

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,01:36)

Yes of course.

You have a big “theos” and a little “theos” which is true Henotheism and Polytheism because according to Paul there is “no other theos” and all other “theos” whether in heaven or earth are “so-called” theos, and obviously Paul is not speaking of Yeshua.

Again you cannot see it.

Its all there in scripture.

I think you just don't agree with scripture, that is the only conclusion.

There is one Most High theos and there are those who have that title for other reasons. You can read it yourself in scripture.

It is not my invention, I am only pointing the reality of what is written in scripture. If you cannot accept it, then that is your decision to not accept those scriptures. It has nothing to do with me WJ.

August 15, 2008 at 2:00 pm#101566

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,01:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,01:36)

Yes of course.

Again you cannot see it.

Its all there in scripture.

I think you just don't agree with scripture, that is the only conclusion.

There is one Most High theos and there are those who have that title for other reasons. You can read it yourself in scripture.

It has everything to do with you because it is you who cannot see that Yeshua is not included in the so-called god club. It right in front of your face and you deny it is there.

Ignorance is not bliss t8. I don't think you are ignorant but I sure have a hard time understanding how the truth looks you in the face and you deny it.

No scripture supports your belief. It is you who denys there is only one God by saying there are other gods and that YHWH created all things through a lesser God.

August 15, 2008 at 2:06 pm#101567

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,01:39)

Since you believe that there are many god's it would seem you could gives us at least one example.

I believe what scripture says, there is one God the Father who is the Most High God. This God sent Jesus his son to earth.

You are allowed to disagree WJ.

And your comment about big Gods and little ones shows your lack of understanding because I have said 'The Theos' and 'theos'. One is identifying God and the other is talking of God quality/nature.

Do I really need to say this again? I rarely meet people who are just so biased that it effects them as if they had an intellectual disability. Or maybe you just don't read what I say? I mean there has to be some explanation.

THE Theos (identifying) There is only one true Theos in this usage.
theos (qualifying). There are a number of beings who have qualities and authority of God. It doesn't make them THE God, it makes them partakers in God's nature or beings with God's authority.

Big God and little gods isn't the way to explain theos with a definite article and without.

You need to get real WJ. Your argument is with scripture and not me. Do I really need to defend scripture to you?

August 15, 2008 at 2:16 pm#101568

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,02:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,01:39)

Since you believe that there are many god's it would seem you could gives us at least one example.

I believe what scripture says, there is one God the Father who is the Most High God. This God sent Jesus his son to earth.

You are allowed to disagree WJ.

And your comment about big Gods and little ones shows your lack of understanding because I have said 'The Theos' and 'theos'. One is identifying God and the other is talking of God quality/nature.

The comment about big theos and little theos is all you have.

For the “quality and nature” you speak of is your addition to the scriptures. The writers of the scritpures didnt use those words in describing Yeshua as less in quality and nature. They could have used another Greek word if they meant to convey that Yeshua was less in quality and nature to the Father. It is you who implies Yeshua is less in quality and nature than the Father which does violence to the scriptures.

Tell me t8 how in quality or nature Yeshua is less than the Father? What attribute does the Father have that Yeshua doesn't, can you give me just one?

August 15, 2008 at 2:34 pm#101569

Proclaimer

Participant

WJ, your Trinity doctrine is a false teaching. There is one who is God, not three.

Like I have said many times, if you really believe it, why don't you pray like “Dear God how are all of you? etc”. And why is God a him in scripture and your God by definition is THEY.

THE theos and theos means different things in Greek just as The Devil and devil does, or THE Adam and adam does too.

Fair enough if you cannot comprehend that, but if that is the case, then you are not qualified to teach against something you do not understand are you?

August 15, 2008 at 2:47 pm#101570

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,02:34)

WJ, your Trinity doctrine is a false teaching. There is one who is God, not three.

Like I have said many times, if you really believe it, why don't you pray like “Dear God how are all of you? etc”. And why is God a him in scripture and your God by definition is THEY.

THE theos and theos means different things in Greek just as The Devil and devil does, or THE Adam and adam does too.

Fair enough if you cannot comprehend that, but if that is the case, then you are not qualified to teach against something you do not understand are you?

The pot calling the kettle black!

Tell me t8, when you say God speaks to you, was it the Father, Yeshua or the Holy Spirit?

When you say the Lord showed you something, was it The Father, Yeshua or the Holy Spirit?

You see since the Father only speaks through the Son and we can have fellowship with the Father only through the Son by the Holy Spirit then why do you not say…

They spoke to me today, or they showed me this or that, or they led me a certain way?

Does the Father and the Holy Spirit do anything without Yeshua?

Can you in anyway seperate the three except by a title?

August 15, 2008 at 3:12 pm#101571

GeneBalthrop

Participant

T8 and WJ…..the original Greek had only upper case lettering. So How can you say 'Theos', and 'theos' without constructing the text to fit an ideology of preexistences. And WJ, Jesus said that GOD the Father (WAS) greater then He. And why does it say I come to do they WILL 'O' GOD. if He is the same GOD, he would have come to do HIS OWN Will. I think both of you are failing to see the truth in this, Jesus was simply a Man who the Father indwelt and empowered to overcome sin. So simple to understand, why make it so difficult. Read John 1:1 just like it says without changing anything or saying it means something that it obviously does not say. The word is an attribute of the one and only God and nothing more. While Jesus could be the spokesman as well as prophets or anyone God Choses to use, the bottom line they all spoke (GOD”S) WORDS, not their own words. There is ONE GOD and ONE mediator between GOD and Man the (MAN) Jesus Christ, as scripture plainly says and we don't have to change anything right. IMO

love and peace to you both……….gene

August 16, 2008 at 2:20 am#101622

gollamudi

Participant

Hi brother Gene,
Those are most valuable words about God and His son Jesus.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

August 16, 2008 at 2:39 am#101623

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2008,02:47)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2008,02:34)

WJ, your Trinity doctrine is a false teaching. There is one who is God, not three.

Like I have said many times, if you really believe it, why don't you pray like “Dear God how are all of you? etc”. And why is God a him in scripture and your God by definition is THEY.

THE theos and theos means different things in Greek just as The Devil and devil does, or THE Adam and adam does too.

Fair enough if you cannot comprehend that, but if that is the case, then you are not qualified to teach against something you do not understand are you?

The pot calling the kettle black!

Tell me t8, when you say God speaks to you, was it the Father, Yeshua or the Holy Spirit?

When you say the Lord showed you something, was it The Father, Yeshua or the Holy Spirit?

You see since the Father only speaks through the Son and we can have fellowship with the Father only through the Son by the Holy Spirit then why do you not say…

They spoke to me today, or they showed me this or that, or they led me a certain way?

Does the Father and the Holy Spirit do anything without Yeshua?

Can you in anyway seperate the three except by a title?

The pot is saying that there is one God the Father who is in all, over all, and through all and is called the Most High God and goes by the name of YHWH. YHWH has a son called Yehsua and YHWH lives in his people by his Spirit.

The kettle is saying that there is One God the Father, the son, and the Spirit and goes by the name of YHWH and Yeshua, and the third one doesn't have a name for some reason.

I think you must have different books in your bible to the ones I read. The book of Babylon or something.

August 16, 2008 at 2:41 am#101624

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 16 2008,03:12)

So How can you say 'Theos', and 'theos'

The definite article is used to identify. So 'THE' is like capitalizing in English. That is how Greek works.

August 16, 2008 at 2:59 am#101626

GeneBalthrop

Participant

T8…..then if i were to write in Greek (the) brown Cow, or say the brown was with the cow Brown would be a proper noun to you and should be capitalized. By saying the Word, does not make it a noun it makes it a descriptor or adjective describing the Noun, not a separate being, no more then brown would be a separate being from the cow.IMO

August 16, 2008 at 3:19 am#101629

Proclaimer

Participant

You mean the brown was with the cow or Brown was with Cow?

I am not going to give anyone an in depth teaching on Greek because I am not qualified to do so. I only repeat the definite article because it has a meaning that can easily be overlooked by English speakers. When I have Greek questions I ask Greek native speakers when I can. Do you have a Greek friend? If so, ask him or her such questions.

I offer this link instead. NOTE: It is modern Greek.
http://www.greece.org/gr-lessons/gr-english/article.html

August 16, 2008 at 3:47 am#101631

GeneBalthrop

Participant

T8……> brown is part of and portrays what the cow is like. The cow is brown and therefore is part of the cow. The Word is an attribute of GOD and is therefore Part of Him , just as your words are attributes of you and portray who you are, Your words are not a separate thing from you. Neither is God's words separate from him. Don't you think if John wanted to say Jesus he could have written it there, why does anyone have to change anything, just read it and understand it as it is written. IMO

peace to you ……….gene

August 16, 2008 at 4:16 am#101633

Not3in1

Participant

What do suppose would happen to the Christian dogma if John 1:1 was never written?

Sorry, I'm tired. What I mean is, if John 1:1 was never written would we have come up with some of the Christian dogma that is so popular?

August 16, 2008 at 9:17 am#101637

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 16 2008,15:47)

peace to you ……….gene

You are saying that logos and theos both have the definite article and only one is identifying and the other is not. If I were you I would talk to an expert in Greek and find out if that is possible before holding onto it.

Anyway, regardless of that outcome, there are still complications for you to overcome.

Both logos and theos are both associated with the definite article in John 1:1 and in John 1:1a the Logos is associated with the definite article and God is not even mentioned yet. i.e., “In the beginning was the Word”,…
In John 1:1b, the logos is WITH God, a second complication for your view.
And in John 1:1c logos has the definite article and theos does not. The third complication.
If you find out that it is possible to still hold your view under serious scrutiny of Greek language construction, then fair enough. But if you don't study it to the degree to eliminate any possible error, then you will not be doing yourself much a service and it could also be said to be quite reckless, especially if you teach your view.
I also speak to myself and I am certainly willing to embrace any truth here to further my understanding.

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