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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 841 through 860 (of 25,960 total)
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  • August 10, 2008 at 7:25 pm#100963
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    Just one word at a time.
    We should not rush to defend dogmas.
    Presumption is an dangerous enemy of true faith

    August 11, 2008 at 8:05 am#101032
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 11 2008,02:32)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2008,17:11)
    Hi GM,
    It would be better to let scripture prove itself rather than adding human rationalisations.
    Let scripture speak and let every man be silent.

    Looking at Jn1.1-2 for provable understandings one part of the verse is repeated in Scripture.

    The WORD WAS WITH GOD.

    It occurs twice in Jn1 and once in 1Jn1.

    So that part is inviolable[2Cor13.1]

    So now you need to search for understandings for ther rest of the verse.
    Does THE WORD WAS GOD appear anywhere else in scripture?

    No.

    So we need to try and fit what is not understood with what is known.


    Nick……..So you are saying you choses to ignore scripture then, because it says the word WAS GOD. You say do you find it anywhere else Yet the scriptures are full of places where God spoke His Words, ” For GOD (SPOKE) in times past (THROUGH) the prophets, has in these latter days Spoken to us  (THROUGH) a son. Question, who SPOKE?, Its was GOD and what did GOD SPEAK His WORD, And who did He Speak HIS WORDS Through? Jesus said in many scriptures the words He Spoke were not His, But the WORDS of HIM who sent HIM.  If I were to send a person to you and say speak to NICK the exact words I amd telling you and He did would you assume that it was the person who i sent WORDS, no you would know it was MY WORDS and Hold me accountable for them no the messenger. It is the same thing with Jesus and the Father, you have to attribute the words of Jesus to the Father because they were HIS WORDS, not Jesus' as he plainly said. This whole concept of making Jesus the WORD is what trinitarians use to prove the trinity , GOD plainly said His words would not return without accomplishing what his purpose for them was. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and ONE TRUE WORD, And God's words represent HIMSELF, Just as yours and mine do.

    peace…………….gene


    That is wonderful my brother Gene,
    You have made as simple as that there is only one God and one mediator the man Jesus if not Paul was a lier in mentioning such words in 1 Tim 2:5.

    August 11, 2008 at 8:51 am#101035
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2008,22:30)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2008,16:57)
    Hi brother,
    How many times I have told here that I don't make the 'word' which was in the beginning with God is an attribute of God himself and it is His expression not a separate person from Himself. Please no more questions like whether an attribute will be with a person.

    Thanks
    Adam


    The Word was WITH the GOD.

    Jesus has a name written on him, “The Word of God”.

    Jesus is WITH God now.

    Therefore the Word of God is with God now, at his right hand side.

    So why not before, especially considering that he is the firstborn of all creation. Not even Adam was the firstborn of all creation.

    Also, Jesus is not just a substitute for Adam. In fact God made all things for him and through him.

    This is what the scriptures say.

    Saying that Jesus is just a man and then putting your trust in a man of flesh is not really what faith is about. It is putting your trust in the firstborn of all creation who fulfilled what Adam did not. Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one. It doesn't say that he was created to destroy the works of the evil one, but that he came to do that.

    Thanks for listening.


    Hi brother T8,
    I appreciate your response to my post on Jn 1:1. But I ask you one thing; is Jesus another God besides the one God as you claim Jesus was the 'word' that was with God ?

    I read clearly in Jn 1:1 that “the word was God” nothing less than that. You also seem to say Jesus is not God but only Father is God then where your beliefs fit my brother as you say Jesus is the 'word' that was with God ?

    I believe Jesus is the man in whom the 'word of God' the expression of God tabernacled or taken abode in. That's why he is called as the image of the true God. He represents fully the true God. He is appointed as the savior of the world by the same God. If God appoints some body as Lord and savior there is no ambiguity in that. I fully agree with Jesus in all that he preached and he is the lord and savior of me. But I don't make him another God apart from that one and only God (Jn 5:44). Jesus has been exalted to the position above all angels and authorities even as a man. Please see Heb 2:5-9

    5 “For God hath not subjected unto angels the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place hath testified, saying: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels: thou hast crowned him with glory and honour and hast set him over the works of thy hands. 8 Thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in that he hath subjected all things to him he left nothing not subject to him. But now we see not as yet all things subject to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God he might taste death for all”.

    It is God that is exalting a man or son of man above the angels and subjecting every thing under his power not Jesus by himself as you think. Please give credit to God who had made Jesus every thing what he is now possessing the name and fame.

    Thanks and blessings
    Adam

    August 11, 2008 at 10:44 am#101039
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.
    11The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
    onseeing above examples, I understood that every word of God is fulfilled throgh jesus inclluding creation also.Now also, what has not yet fulfilled will become true jesus. therefore, I want to say Jesus was there in God even in old testment times and fulfilling all the words of God.when he came as son of man also, he was fulfilling what God wrote his words in law.for example, when God said, let there be light, light came through jesus works.Therefore, jesus, a witness to word of God is same yesterday,today and for ever doing the words/plans of God.his perennial duty is to cause come true what God words intend.Therefore, a perfect skilful personality of God.

    what you all say?
    psb

    August 11, 2008 at 1:15 pm#101047
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Pulivarthy,
    You are right that the son of God is called the “word of God”. I believe that He is the word of God in more than one ways. I believe that the first word of God spoken in the Bible referred to the Son of God, “Let there be light”. He was that light of life, physically and spiritually and still is. I think that was an announcement of His birth out of the womb of God as the literal firstborn son of God. “Let there be light” and there was the radiant new Son of God, the only begotten one. He was not created but born from the womb of God Himself. And since He is the literal firstborn of God, He is the only begotten God, the monogenes theos which means the only begotten God, John 1:18 NASB. He represented His Father in the old testament by coming in His Father's name and made appearances. He appeared before Abraham and told Him that He would have a son of his own with Sarah. The Son was not Himself the Most High God, for that belonged to His Father only. His Father was the only always existing one, not His Son. His Son could never be the always existing one because He had a beginning. They could never be both equal and both eternal as the trinity doctrine states. They are literally a Father and Son both with the title of God. God begat God, Man begat man.
    Anyways, that is what I think,
    LU

    August 11, 2008 at 1:53 pm#101049
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Adam,
    You say:
    “I fully agree with Jesus in all that he preached and he is the lord and savior of me. But I don't make him another God apart from that one and only God (Jn 5:44). Jesus has been exalted to the position above all angels and authorities even as a man. Please see Heb 2:5-9”

    You mentioned that “he is the lord and savior of me”.  It is also written that “He is our God and savior.”

    2 Peter1:1
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

    From His beginning He was the only begotten “God”.  Perhaps He was not exalted to the position as “our” God until He defeated death yet He was always God during His complete existence even in the beginning, He was God, the begotten God.  He has always been under the authority of His Father, the Most High God and that will never change.

    You can't disregard that He is our God and Savior, Adam.  It is definetly written.
    Have a great day,
    Kathi

    August 11, 2008 at 3:57 pm#101050
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..you are glorifing the messenger but not the one who sent Him, who is above all, this is something Jesus never did, saying if i glorify myself my glory is nothing, and again Jesus said I have glorified you (GOD) on the earth notice it was not himself he glorified. You need to read Adams post He has it right.

    Peace…..gene

    August 11, 2008 at 4:12 pm#101052
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick……right presumption is a danger to the truth, so why (presume) what is plainly written in John 1:1 should mean anything else then what it plainly says. why change the word (WORD) to mean the person Jesus then, and disqualify what the Apostle John meant, by saying He meant to say Jesus instead of what He wrote. While Jesus certainly did speak (GOD'S WORDS) to us those words were not HIS. The presumptions are in your court not ours, i as well as Adam believe He meant exactly what He wrote, and we don't have to assume or change anything ., Its preexistences and trinitarians who need to change the text to foster their ideologies not us.

    peace to you …….gene

    August 11, 2008 at 8:31 pm#101071
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    First we establish what is possible to prove, then look at the rest of the verse.
    The Word was with God is proven.

    August 11, 2008 at 9:24 pm#101078
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick….Also the word (WAS)GOD is stated lets not leave that out. Just as your words are with you and are partof you so is God's word part of Him, For GOd said (WORD) let there be light and there was light. You can not separate GOD from His words, Jesus said the words are Spirit and GOD is Spirit, you can't arbitrarily separate them in an effort to fit you belief system, We must read it just as it is written and believe it that way, without inferring something else if the scripture says the word was GOD then it must be so, and if Jesus said the words weren't His then it must be so, and to try to get around that is forcing the text to fit your ideology as trinitarians do also.

    If we are going to do that i can present John 1:1 This way “in the beginning was the word (expressed intellect) and the word(expressed intellect) was with Elohim (POWERS) and the word (expressed intellect) was Elohim (POWERS) You see this would Just as easily fit what was said. No where does it say, (the WORD is Jesus in this text) that you and others are adding to the text, and both who do are preexistences and trinitarians , But not the text. IMO

    peace……….gene

    August 11, 2008 at 9:32 pm#101079
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    No but his words are a challenge for us to resolve, words according to word?
    Should all women leave their hair long?

    1 Corinthians 11:15
    But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

    August 12, 2008 at 1:17 pm#101140
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi brother Gene,
    Those are excellent posts on Jn 1:1, if they don't agree with these understandings they make the God of the bible into Poly and mystery like any Trinitarian or Arian.

    Peace and love to you
    Adam

    August 12, 2008 at 2:56 pm#101150
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 12 2008,09:32)
    Hi GB,
    No but his words are a challenge for us to resolve, words according to word?
    Should all women leave their hair long?

    1 Corinthians 11:15
    But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.


    Nick…….you are excusing you and others speculations of what is written in John 1:1, in order to justify your position of speculation. Paul showing of a woman having long hair is scriptural, God did give women long hair for a covering, of beauty and glory, and i do believe He was inspired to write that. To show a principle of GOD. IMO

    peace to you………….gene

    August 12, 2008 at 4:52 pm#101154
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,09:53)
    Hi Adam,
    You say:
    “I fully agree with Jesus in all that he preached and he is the lord and savior of me. But I don't make him another God apart from that one and only God (Jn 5:44). Jesus has been exalted to the position above all angels and authorities even as a man. Please see Heb 2:5-9”

    You mentioned that “he is the lord and savior of me”.  It is also written that “He is our God and savior.”

    2 Peter1:1
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

    From His beginning He was the only begotten “God”.  Perhaps He was not exalted to the position as “our” God until He defeated death yet He was always God during His complete existence even in the beginning, He was God, the begotten God.  He has always been under the authority of His Father, the Most High God and that will never change.

    You can't disregard that He is our God and Savior, Adam.  It is definitely written.
    Have a great day,
    Kathi


    Hi Gene,
    You wrote this:

    Quote
    LU…..you are glorifing the messenger but not the one who sent Him, who is above all, this is something Jesus never did, saying if i glorify myself my glory is nothing, and again Jesus said I have glorified you (GOD) on the earth notice it was not himself he glorified. You need to read Adams post He has it right.

    Peace…..gene

    Read this quote below again, it says that His Father is the “Most High God”. How is that not giving the glory to the Father?

    Quote
    He has always been under the authority of His Father, the Most High God and that will never change.

    By the way, Jesus is most certainly glorified now with the same glory that He had with the Father before the world was. If I glorify Him as one who is under the Father's authority and over all other authority, then I am agreeing with the Father who has glorified Him. If I glorify Jesus as our God and Savior I am also agreeing with the Father who has exalted Him and had it written of Him in 2 Peter 1:1. If I disagree with that, I do not glorify the Father or the Son because I lower the Son below His exalted place that the Father Himself has given Him.

    Good day,
    LU

    You disregard that Jesus is also our God and Savior, Gene. It is definitely written. See 2 Peter 1:1

    August 13, 2008 at 3:19 am#101184
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..Jesus is not my GOD and savior, I have a GOd and Savior who is the same one as Jesus had and I think He is just as capable of saving me as He did Jesus. I View Jesus as my brother who the Father placed over us because He is the first born of the Family of Humanity to fully image God the Father and The Father placed Him over us all, so i do give him that honor and believe we should all obey him, to the Glory of the Father.IMO

    August 13, 2008 at 1:25 pm#101225
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,
    So 2 Peter 1:1 refers to another Jesus Christ?
    LU

    August 13, 2008 at 1:38 pm#101227
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2008,02:56)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 12 2008,09:32)
    Hi GB,
    No but his words are a challenge for us to resolve, words according to word?
    Should all women leave their hair long?

    1 Corinthians 11:15
    But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.


    Nick…….you are excusing you and others speculations of what is written in John 1:1,  in order to justify your position of speculation. Paul showing of a woman having long hair is scriptural, God did give women long hair for a covering, of beauty and glory, and i do believe He was inspired to write that. To show a principle of GOD. IMO

    peace to you………….gene


    also, it is helpful to know that Paul wrote to the Corinthians, and that it was common knowledge that the temple prostitutes had very short hair. So that Christian women were sure to be totally separate in the minds of the people from the temple prostitutes, they were to keep their hair long.

    “Eastern society at that time was very jealous over its women. Except for the temple prostitutes, the women wore long hair and, in public, wore a covering over their heads. (Paul did not use the word veil, i.e., a covering over the face. The woman put the regular shawl over her head, and this covering symbolized her submission and purity.) For the Christian women in the church to appear in public without the covering, let alone to pray and share the Word, was both daring and blasphemous.—Bible Exposition Commentary – New Testament

    so women…. SOME women… were to keep their hair short is really no challenge at all. The fact that some do not accept what the bible teaches about God's nature is what the challenge is 😉

    blessings.
    Ken

    August 13, 2008 at 1:45 pm#101228
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    2 Peter 1:1 (ESV)
    1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

    seems pretty straightforward to me….. Jesus is God and Savior…. anyone with an elementary reading level could figure this one out ehhh? Trinitarianism is merely a nickname for simple biblical faith…. we do not have to confuse things with all these different man-made philosophies and traditions about who Jesus is, thank God. No…. all we have to do is say what the bible says about who Jesus is, and the bible says that Jesus is God.

    blessings,
    Ken

    August 13, 2008 at 2:47 pm#101230
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    epitemaniac…..Then why did Jesus say “tho art the (ONLY)TRUE GOD”, them if Jesus is the real GOD who is the savior of all men. While the word God can be other then the true God in the expressions of (POWERS) but still Jesus made certain we all know who was the (ONLY)TRUE GOD. and that did not include Him. To me Peter was saying Jesus (AND) GOD were in concert with each other not being one and the same. Your rewording is forcing the text, IMO

    Love and peace to you and yours………..gene

    August 13, 2008 at 3:35 pm#101235
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2008,01:25)
    Gene,
    So 2 Peter 1:1 refers to another Jesus Christ?
    LU


    Again…this verse does not prove the trinity…The dispute in this verse is usually over whether Sharp's “article+substantive-kai-substantive” rule should apply or not.

    First of all, if you check other translations you will notice that this verse is rendered differently…secondly, to render it the way you quoted would make it out of line with what Peter expressed later in those same books and the way the greek was used…note these passages:

    2 Peter 1:11…11Then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will give you a glorious welcome into his kingdom that will last forever.

    2 Peter 2:20…20When they learned about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they escaped from the filthy things of this world. But they are again caught up and controlled by these filthy things, and now they are in worse shape than they were at first.

    Notice the syriac translation…”SIMON PETER, a servant and legate of Jesus the Messiah, to those who have obtained equally precious faith with us, through the righteousness of Our Lord and Redeemer, Jesus the Messiah;”

    If the Syriac is correct, then we should plainly see that this verse is not referring to Jesus as GOD. The Syriac is probably correct, since this is the expression that Peter used in 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2 and 3:18.

    Even if Jesus is being called “THEOS” in this verse, this would not mean that Jesus is GOD since the Greek word THEOS, based on the Hebrew words EL and ELOHIM, can take on a more general meaning than Supreme Being, or a false “god”.* Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus. (Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3) The Father of Jesus is the only true God who sent Jesus. (John 17:1,3; Deuteronomy 18:15-19) Jesus is not the only true God who sent him.

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