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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 821 through 840 (of 25,960 total)
123…414243…1,2961,2971,298
  • Author
    Posts
  • August 8, 2008 at 8:07 pm#100713
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    In reply to your suggestion in another thread that we study the meaning of WITH

    Hi not3,
    jn1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [4314] God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with [4314] God.

    Number 4314
    Transliteration:
    pros {pros}
    Word Origin:
    a strengthened form of 4253
    TDNT:
    6:720,942
    Part of Speech:
    prep
    Usage in the KJV:
    unto 340, to 203, with 43, for 25, against 24, among 20, at 11, not tr 6, misc 53, vr to 1

    Total: 726
    Definition:
    to the advantage of
    at, near, by
    to, towards, with, with regard to

    None of the meanings offered here suggest it means
    IN or a PART OF God.

    They all speak of in one way or another separateness and relationship.

    August 9, 2008 at 12:59 am#100730
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,03:30)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 08 2008,06:24)
    Hi GB,
    You have just done exactly what you advised against.
    You just inserted the word INTELLECT.


    Nick…..I did not change anything a WORD is the expression of ones intellect, thats how we communicate right, i did not change anything i simple gave its meaning as all words have meaning, or they are just gibberish right, A word Is the expression of ones intellect and you full well know that. Lets not try to be contrary with each other for just the sake of being contrary brother.

    peace to you…….gene


    Hi brother Nick,
    Please leave this unnecessary arguments on intellect. Our brother Gene wanted to give different meaning to 'words' as intellect even the human science accept that. If you don't agree I think better leave it. But please don't judge any brother continously.

    Thanks and blessings
    Adam

    August 9, 2008 at 1:54 am#100736
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    Anyone presenting things here as truth but cannot find one scripture to support them is teaching falsehood. As long as they continue to do so, with or without support, they will be challenged for the sake of the lambs. Where do you stand on this?

    August 9, 2008 at 1:57 am#100737
    gollamudi
    Participant

    So for every reasoning you want some scripture ?

    August 9, 2008 at 3:44 am#100755
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    What we do here is pointless unless we gain mutual understandings from scripture.
    Those who are driven to share the opinions of men have many other places they can do this.

    August 9, 2008 at 4:04 am#100758
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Without human understanding no scripture can benefit any even in a christian site. Don't be so much religious which may not profit any.

    August 9, 2008 at 4:03 pm#100811
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 09 2008,13:54)
    Hi GM,
    Anyone presenting things here as truth but cannot find one scripture to support them is teaching falsehood. As long as they continue to do so, with or without support, they will be challenged for the sake of the lambs. Where do you stand on this?


    Nick….lets settle this thing about what a (WORD) is, if it is NOT the expression of ones INTELLECT, then please tell us what a WORD IS.

    August 9, 2008 at 6:11 pm#100825
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    1 In the beginning was the Word[3056], and the Word[3056] was with God, and the Word [3056]was God.

    Number 3056
    Transliteration:
    logos {log'-os}
    Word Origin:
    from 3004
    TDNT:
    4:69,505
    Part of Speech:
    noun masculine
    Usage in the KJV:
    word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not tr 2, misc 32

    Total: 330
    Definition:
    of speech
    a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
    what someone has said
    a word
    the sayings of God
    decree, mandate or order
    of the moral precepts given by God
    Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
    what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
    discourse
    the act of speaking, speech
    the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
    a kind or style of speaking
    a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
    doctrine, teaching
    anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
    matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
    the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
    its use as respect to the MIND alone
    reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
    account, i.e. regard, consideration
    account, i.e. reckoning, score
    account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
    relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
    reason would
    reason, cause, ground
    In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

    Though REASON appears in the list there are NO examples of such use shown here in scripture.

    August 10, 2008 at 3:05 am#100892
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick….Please you surely know a WORD is the Expression of ones intellect. Everyone knows that.

    It is used as RESPECT to the MIND ALONE.

    Reason, the mental facility of thinking, meditating, reasoning, Calculating.

    All of these are processes of intellect from which Word are derived. imo

    To make Word in John 1:1 appear to say Jesus is to make all kinds of assumptions , one is that John did know how to write the word Jesus there, and the other is to transpose the meaning written to a different common meaning usage of what a word is and turning it into a person. If that what John meant he would just have simple used Jesus in the text.

    peace………gene

    August 10, 2008 at 3:09 am#100894
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Gb,
    Not from Scripture.
    But you are convinced we are sure of that.
    I do not see a lack in the words John was given by God.

    I am sure some folk will eventually accept your ideas.

    August 10, 2008 at 4:14 am#100908
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 10 2008,15:05)
    Nick….Please you surely know a WORD is the Expression of ones intellect. Everyone knows that.

    It is used as RESPECT to the MIND ALONE.

    Reason, the mental facility  of thinking, meditating, reasoning, Calculating.

    All of these are processes of intellect from which Word are derived. imo

    To make Word in John 1:1 appear to say Jesus is to make all kinds of assumptions , one is that John did know how to write the word Jesus there, and the other is to transpose the meaning written to a different common meaning usage of what a word is and turning it into a person. If that what John meant he would just have simple used Jesus in the text.

    peace………gene


    Hi brother Gene,
    Many are assuming that the 'word' as preexisting Jesus then they are forgetting that the same 'word' was God then they are proving that there were two Gods in the beginning; one the Father and the other Jesus. It is as simple as that.

    Peace to you
    Adam

    August 10, 2008 at 4:44 am#100914
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Gm,
    You are not suggesting that the Word who was with God was God Himself are you?
    Can God be with Himself?

    August 10, 2008 at 4:57 am#100915
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi brother,
    How many times I have told here that I don't make the 'word' which was in the beginning with God is an attribute of God himself and it is His expression not a separate person from Himself. Please no more questions like whether an attribute will be with a person.

    Thanks
    Adam

    August 10, 2008 at 5:11 am#100919
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    It would be better to let scripture prove itself rather than adding human rationalisations.
    Let scripture speak and let every man be silent.

    Looking at Jn1.1-2 for provable understandings one part of the verse is repeated in Scripture.

    The WORD WAS WITH GOD.

    It occurs twice in Jn1 and once in 1Jn1.

    So that part is inviolable[2Cor13.1]

    So now you need to search for understandings for ther rest of the verse.
    Does THE WORD WAS GOD appear anywhere else in scripture?

    No.

    So we need to try and fit what is not understood with what is known.

    August 10, 2008 at 5:33 am#100923
    gollamudi
    Participant

    I think you better see for your self that the same 'word' tabernacled in the person Jesus as the living 'word of God'. I am not rationalising invain but in the light of God's wisdom. I don't see any difference between Jn1 and 1Jn1 because both talk on the 'word of life' which belongs to God Himself not a separate person from Him as you and others make. Please I don't want any further arguments because you don't want to give up your Arain ideas. I am sorry for that I can not make Jesus a god but he is the True image of God because the 'word of life ' became flesh in him. When I see Jesus, I see the full image of True God not anything less than that. he is not small god or begooten god but the Theophany of the One and only God.

    Thanks and blessings
    Adam

    August 10, 2008 at 5:51 am#100924
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    I am surprised you would speak like this.
    You seemed to be open to finding truth.

    August 10, 2008 at 6:36 am#100927
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ,
    So the choice remains.
    Can we let scripture speak and interpret itself?

    August 10, 2008 at 10:00 am#100935
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Oh! I am really sorry for personalising things. yes we have to allow the scriptures speak themselves.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    August 10, 2008 at 10:30 am#100936
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2008,16:57)
    Hi brother,
    How many times I have told here that I don't make the 'word' which was in the beginning with God is an attribute of God himself and it is His expression not a separate person from Himself. Please no more questions like whether an attribute will be with a person.

    Thanks
    Adam


    The Word was WITH the GOD.

    Jesus has a name written on him, “The Word of God”.

    Jesus is WITH God now.

    Therefore the Word of God is with God now, at his right hand side.

    So why not before, especially considering that he is the firstborn of all creation. Not even Adam was the firstborn of all creation.

    Also, Jesus is not just a substitute for Adam. In fact God made all things for him and through him.

    This is what the scriptures say.

    Saying that Jesus is just a man and then putting your trust in a man of flesh is not really what faith is about. It is putting your trust in the firstborn of all creation who fulfilled what Adam did not. Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one. It doesn't say that he was created to destroy the works of the evil one, but that he came to do that.

    Thanks for listening.

    August 10, 2008 at 2:32 pm#100942
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2008,17:11)
    Hi GM,
    It would be better to let scripture prove itself rather than adding human rationalisations.
    Let scripture speak and let every man be silent.

    Looking at Jn1.1-2 for provable understandings one part of the verse is repeated in Scripture.

    The WORD WAS WITH GOD.

    It occurs twice in Jn1 and once in 1Jn1.

    So that part is inviolable[2Cor13.1]

    So now you need to search for understandings for ther rest of the verse.
    Does THE WORD WAS GOD appear anywhere else in scripture?

    No.

    So we need to try and fit what is not understood with what is known.


    Nick……..So you are saying you choses to ignore scripture then, because it says the word WAS GOD. You say do you find it anywhere else Yet the scriptures are full of places where God spoke His Words, ” For GOD (SPOKE) in times past (THROUGH) the prophets, has in these latter days Spoken to us (THROUGH) a son. Question, who SPOKE?, Its was GOD and what did GOD SPEAK His WORD, And who did He Speak HIS WORDS Through? Jesus said in many scriptures the words He Spoke were not His, But the WORDS of HIM who sent HIM. If I were to send a person to you and say speak to NICK the exact words I amd telling you and He did would you assume that it was the person who i sent WORDS, no you would know it was MY WORDS and Hold me accountable for them no the messenger. It is the same thing with Jesus and the Father, you have to attribute the words of Jesus to the Father because they were HIS WORDS, not Jesus' as he plainly said. This whole concept of making Jesus the WORD is what trinitarians use to prove the trinity , GOD plainly said His words would not return without accomplishing what his purpose for them was. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and ONE TRUE WORD, And God's words represent HIMSELF, Just as yours and mine do.

    peace…………….gene

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