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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 721 through 740 (of 25,960 total)
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  • August 28, 2007 at 4:47 pm#64962
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    CB;

    Remember verse 2 “The 'same' was in the beginning with God” God's word is always with him and is his very essence. When the scripture say the same was in the beginning with God the scripture makes it clear that God's word is inextricably part of God himself, they cannot be severed, only distinguished. His word will never pass away because he cannot passaway. He is God. This word was made flesh in the Son of God who came in the flesh.

    Steven

    August 28, 2007 at 5:16 pm#64966
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Charity;

    Thank you for your kind words. May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ guard and protect you and keep you until the coming of our Lord blameless in him. All glory and honor and praise to him.

    Steven

    August 28, 2007 at 10:56 pm#64983
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mr. Steve……I totally agree with you that Jesus himself is not the word, but he spoke God's words to us. Just look at all the scriptures that plaimly shoud this point. Jesus said in many places the words He spoke weren't his but the words of the one who sent him. Jesus said the (Words) he was speaking were (Spirit) and (Life). Trinitarians have to ignore the many scriptures that show there wrong, we need to take all the scriptures to get the true perspectives and if you do you will find the trinity has no leg to stand on. That is why I always go the the simple statement of Jesus “For (THOU) art the (ONLY) true (GOD) and like i said when Jesus said thou he wasent talking about his self either. And the word (ONLY) means no other at least thats what it meant when i went to school. Why are they argueing over the same thing when it is clearfied in so many plain scriptures through out the bible. The Word is the Seed of God, and like it says the kingdom of God is like a man who sowed seed in his filed (HEART) and went about his normal business and the word (seed) took root and begain to grow, first a blade them the head apears them the full grain and is then harvested. God word does all this when it is sowen into our Hearts and we don't even know how it does it, just like it says the earth brings forth of itself and once our hearts have been sown with the word of God ,Which is Spirit it brings forth life, the same way it Did Jesus. If theis mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus (IT) will Quicken your mortal bodies also. Just like it did his,the word is truly God and if its in you then God is in you also, just like he was in Our Lord Jesus.,the christ. peace to you brother…..gene

    August 28, 2007 at 11:42 pm#64986
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 29 2007,05:16)
    Charity;

    Thank you for your kind words.  May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ guard and protect you and keep you until the coming of our Lord blameless in him.   All glory and honor and praise to him.

    Steven


    thankyou so much for coming to heaven net
    also gene; what a blessing to have both of you

    God is so Good

    August 29, 2007 at 3:55 am#64993
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Gen, Steve and Charity Sorry but I do have to disagree with you on this, because there are other scriptures that clearly states that Jesus existed before the world was. I don't believe in the trinity, I better say that. The Father is greater then the Son.
    John 17:5 ” And now O' Father, glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the World began.”(meaning spirit I believe)
    John 6:57 ” As the Father SEND ME, and I live because of the Father, so who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
    verse 58 This is the Bread WHICH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats the Bread will live forever.
    verse 62 “What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where HE WAS BEFORE

    Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth………..
    verse 18 And He is the body of the Church, who is the BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
    Rev. 3:14 “These says the Amen the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD;
    Please look at this scriptures again, it is also on the Preexisting Post. I hate to disagree with you Brothers and Sister, but how do you explain these scriptures? I do respect everyone of You and Bless you all.

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    August 29, 2007 at 6:02 am#64995
    charity
    Participant

    Hi Mrs. truth; my thoughts… and I KNOW …THIS IS ALL STRANGE..I hope you can follow this…but please Know I am happy just for the truth; I don;t mind what it is; as Long it is Gods design; SO i am just sharing it as it flows

    What was spoken of in the beginning;
    was that which came second on earth;(Christ)
    after that which was spoken of second (Adam)
    Of that which existed first then was Adam?
    Made from the dust last… after God had finished making the second (christ) and the heavenly host of the heavens and earth; he began the adam creation out side of the seventh day; which is then the seventh day can only by reached by the beginning of the first man untill the 6th day arive on earth; made the New Image?
    That even started as far back as the day the covenant was given to the earth Psa 89:27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    Let US make man in our Image and likeness this is the covenant of the first born?
    God has made with some other?
    The likeness is… God is the spirit invisible, and the other is the man lost by the curse to dust; without hope?
    Jesus is to be now the Man that is made; come to get that which was lost; rise up ruins of many generations
    The Son of MAN AND the Son of God two in likeness; The father and God
    Where god has first spoken in the word of the seed that will come as the Image and likeness was when God talked to King David giving him the covenant and saying he will not change his mind; his word was that he would rise up his seed to Be the first born of this new creation; as if Let us your seed David and my spirit;

    Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

    Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. Psa 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon [one that is] mighty; I have exalted [one] chosen out of the people.
    I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy [shall be] with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
    He shall cry unto me, Thou [art] my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    We are all planed and seated there in the seven days;
    But it still needs to come to pass; as the seven day creation is always in effect until the finish
    If we end up in the creation inheriting utter darkness; as if never have been created of God in the new Image; inherit the earth; and we were perhaps were deceived not to believe he created and new of us right from the beginning of everything
    And that which came first was the Adam creation
    Let us make Man in our Image a covenant was made between two; God gave his word on this happening; the man made in their Image; is Jesus… and the Man Jesus made in the Image of the two that spoke this;

    Good luck with this post…sorry

    August 29, 2007 at 6:56 am#64996
    charity
    Participant

    The six Day cannot begin untill the Image of us arrives in time, so that God can rest his sevent Day; while his servent brings and leads us all to this house.

    2Sa 7:18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who [am] I, O Lord GOD? and what [is] my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?  

    Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let “us” make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    the morning of the six Day came

    2Sa 7:27  For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
    And now, O Lord GOD, thou [art] that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
    Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken [it]: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.

    AND the end of the sixth day; as one day with God is a thousand years for us; from the set up of this house was a thousand years between King David to the coming christ.
    and subdue and replemish the already filled earth?

    Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    And that was the evening and morning of the six day.
    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    August 29, 2007 at 8:29 am#64998
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Charity Christ as a Human was second, but He exsisted as a spirit first, I gave you the scriptures that prove that. David in the Psalms talks a lot of the LORD. Notice that LORD is written in Capital letters. Anytime you see that ,it is God the Father that He is talking about. I don't think that you can take the Psalms and apply it to preexsisting of Jesus. David is exalted, God called Him a man of His own Heart.
    And what was first was the Adam creation? If that were true then the scriptures that I gave you would contradict. Adam was the first man out of the dust of the earth. Jesus never was, He came forth from the Father. Inplannted into Mary's womb by the Fathers Holy Spirit. He gave up His Glory that He had to become Man, the glory was that He was a Spirit Being. He gave that up to become a man. John 17:5 is were He says ” And now O Father glorify Me with the Glory that I had with you before the world was. So He was Spirit first then man and then Spirit again and became Lord of Lords and King of Kings and will reign a thousant years here on earth. Then He will give the Kingdom back to God.
    1 Corinth. 15:28 ” Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him, who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    August 29, 2007 at 9:32 am#65000
    charity
    Participant

    Thanks mrs truth; I just have one wish; only the truth; I don;t mind what it is to be; just that it is delivered to me

    More to thoughts

    So what I need to think is that Christ was made before the sixth day?
    To be with God made as only a spirit for God to say let us make man in our Image and Likeness? That of two spirits
    And for man it is different
    1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    So if Jesus did not before hand bear the Image of the earthly dust creation before he came; only the heavenly which is the incorruptible Image;but yet came forth made of a father…
    Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
    And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

    Puzzling for some?

    Riddle even

    Then it brings back to how can I then acknowledge him in all righteousness as the son of men and the father in which he came from; that I may see God is requiring us to honoring the father seed and his part in the creating of Christ?
    Is it Time to give reward even to the faithful fathers and prophets and saints?
    for the Nations are full of wrath when this time comes?

    beast cast their crown to the ground; sorry we were wrong Lord?? sota thing

    Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    August 29, 2007 at 12:19 pm#65009
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Charity I gave you the truth as I understand it. With scriptures to go with it. I am sorry that is the way I see it. Please explain these scriptures to me then? What do they mean to you?

    John 17:5 What does it mean when it says He was glorified with the Father before the Wold was.

    John 6:12 What if you see the Son of man ascend where He was before.

    Col. 1:15 He was the firstborn over all creation
    verse 16 For by Him all things were created. If He created all then He created the world etc. All things were created that are in Heaven and that are in earth…All things were created through Him.
    and verse 17&18………….So He may have preeminence in all..

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    August 29, 2007 at 1:46 pm#65018
    charity
    Participant

    Hi mrs truth
    I have to get back to you; its getting late;

    thanks for sharing how you see and understand things;
    God loves us all; and I can see many good offerings coming into the store house! head spin!
    many parts to the body; one can't be the hand foot and mouth on their own; this is a team :laugh:

    August 30, 2007 at 11:48 am#65073
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 29 2007,08:47)
    CB;

    Remember verse 2 “The 'same' was in the beginning with God”  God's word is always with him and is his very essence.  When the scripture say the same was in the beginning with God the scripture makes it clear that God's word is inextricably part of God himself, they cannot be severed, only distinguished. His word will never pass away because he cannot passaway. He is God.   This word was made flesh in the Son of God who came in the flesh.  

    Steven


    Mr Steve.

    You're taking simple to understand verses of John and twisting them to try to conceal their true meaning, but the scriptures speak for themselves. It is a sin to pervert the scriptures.

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:14  Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Jesus the Word was God. It is very clear.

    Mr Steve. Are you or have you ever been a JW?

    2Pe 3:16  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.  :O

    August 30, 2007 at 11:52 am#65074
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

                                                                Amen and Amen!
                                                                         :O

    August 30, 2007 at 12:46 pm#65080
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 30 2007,23:52)
    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

                                                                Amen and Amen!
                                                                         :O


    1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

    1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    in due time CB

    HAVE A NICE DAY ITS DUE

    August 31, 2007 at 6:54 pm#65155
    kejonn
    Participant

    The more and more I read John 1, the less I see a pre-existant being. Are we truly to take the OT passages that speak of the “word of YHWH” and see some being flitting around, carrying out God's actions? John 1 is a simple summarization of the creation narrative: God spoke and things came to be. God spoke and a Savior was born; it was God's plan to save mankind through His only begotten Son.

    What confuses the issue with John 1 is the translation of the Greek word “autos” as “him”. This word can mean “he, she, or it”, “him, her, or it”. Yet the translators used “him” with no real reason to do so other than popular opinion. Can a “logos” — a “word” — truly be a “him”? Can somone show me where a “logos” was a “him” outside of John 1?

    August 31, 2007 at 7:05 pm#65156
    kejonn
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 30 2007,06:52)
    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

                                                                Amen and Amen!
                                                                         :O


    Tts 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

    Amen and amen indeed! Christ Jesus is rightly the glory of our great God and Savior, YHWH of the OT, and we await his return. But man is also called the glory of God

    1Cr 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

    August 31, 2007 at 8:28 pm#65158
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    kejonn Would you explain
    John 17:5 ” And now O' Father glorify Me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
    John 6:62 ” What then if you should see the Son of man ascend WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?

    COL. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible.

    verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBOTRN FROM THE DEAD, THAT IN ALL THINGS He MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.

    Rev. 3:14 ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”

    PLEASE EXPLAIN THESE SCRIPTURES TO ME?

    Peace and Love Mrs.

    August 31, 2007 at 9:31 pm#65160
    kejonn
    Participant

    Well, to be truthful, the existance of Christ prior to his birth is something I'm still trying to understand. The biggest issue we have is that the OT does not support anyone residing in the heavens besides angels and God. But I don't believe that John 1 is a good passage to support “pre-existence” because “logos” should not be interpreted differently in this chapter than any other part of the NT, should it? And if we factor in the Septuagint, than we will be forced to apply “logos” differently from hundreds of OT passages as well.

    Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 31 2007,15:28)
    kejonn Would you explain
    John 17:5 ” And now O' Father glorify Me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.


    This is quite simple if you assume prior existence. But if you don't, then you look to the glory that was already reserved for him as Messiah. God planned to deliver mankind via His only begotten Son. That is, the glory has always been his, but he did not actually receive it until he died, was raised, and ascended.

    Another point to consider was that he spoke of the glory that was his before the world was as opposed to simply before he came to earth if he truly “pre-existed”? After all, was there not 4000 biblical years (according to geneologies) between the Genesis account and Christ's birth? So if essence, to support prio existance, the verse might read “glorify Me together with yourself with the glory which I had with you before I came to earth“.

    Quote
    John 6:62 ” What then if you should see the Son of man ascend WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?


    Again, straightforward if you assume prior existance. But if you don't, then you consider that he came directly from the Father and was now returning to the Father, albeit in the form of the only begotten Son. This does not have to mean he had a prior form.

    Quote
    COL. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.


    Trinitarians supply their own refutation of a pre-existance here. They like to say that “firstborn of all creation” refers to his pre-eximinence, in that he is over all creation. Isaac was not truly the first to be born, but he was considered firstborn in relation to his status. And all mankind is the image of God according to Genesis 1:27, right? So this verse supports his humanity!

    Quote
    verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible.


    Some say this refers to the new creation, and this does have support in that thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities are mentioned. After all, were there any of these things in Genesis 1?  

    Quote
    verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBOTRN FROM THE DEAD, THAT IN ALL THINGS He MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.


    This verse seems to support the context of the new creation, does it not? It says the firstborn from the dead which signifies his resurrection. This phrase is immediately preceded by speaking of the church and being the beginning. The whole context is indeed of the new creation.

    Quote
    Rev. 3:14 ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.”


    Again, can we be certain that this means the beginning of creation in Gen 1? Revelation is all about the new heaven and new earth, nothing really in it about the Genesis creation. Did Yahshua not say he was going to prepare a place for us? What does that mean? Was it not already prepared? Obviously not, because that would make his words false.

    Quote
    PLEASE EXPLAIN THESE SCRIPTURES TO ME?

    Peace and Love Mrs.


    Don't know if I did, but it may give you some points to ponder.

    September 1, 2007 at 2:01 am#65176
    charity
    Participant

    Pondering with you

    As Solomon would say…The locusts have no King
    but it seems that the seventh day is optional to enter; as if it dose not have time span. and some don't enter; For its written some because of unbelief have not enter their rest; as God did when he had finished his works; and entered the seventh Day; this must be because the refuse the First man God created; and make Jesus
    an Idol and call him God; because they don’t understand God gave his word that he would send him as first born of the creation; to be mediator; knowing his work.

    Rather than lift Jesus higher God is forced lower?

    Any sort of prex life of Christ on earth maybe that of Him that was made and saw corruption; amongst the generation of the Fathers that need redeeming… the whole of the cursed to death creation before Jesus;
    And as it twists and turns… and the last is written first; end before the start; then he also can be the “Us” in the Let us make man in our Image….under the convent of being the first begotten that God has given his word  said the new creation the first born of the dead. Prex,.

    September 1, 2007 at 2:14 am#65177
    IM4Truth
    Participant

    Kejonn Yes it did. Thank you. Like I said before it is just recently that I began to study this, so I am not 100% convinced.
    But with the trinity I am 200% convinced. Have to make a copy and study it.
    Peace and Love Mrs.

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