Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)

Hi 94
You say
“John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).”

So you scripture base is Strongs?

Hi Nick:

No, I don't base my understanding solely on Strong's but on what the whole of the scriptures say to me, but sometimes we need to know what a word means in order to understand what God is saying through a scripture.

God Bless

May 27, 2007 at 3:22 pm#53292

Participant

Hi WJ:

Quote

So it was both the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood and his claiming to come
down from heaven that offended them and was hard for them to recieve!

I agree with you about this it was the whole deal about first him coming down from heaven and the also about eating his flesh and blood. And so, we are in agreement on this point.

But let me just ask you the following questions. Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary? And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”. Who then is Jesus?

Let's resolve this first and then if you have other points that I haven't addressed restate them and I will address them.

God Bless

May 27, 2007 at 6:48 pm#53299

Participant

I think 94 is trying to give us definitions from Strong's to better our understanding (thanks, 94). You know, kinda like you did in the Gennao thread, remember Nick? This shows that words can lend themselves to other interpretations.

May 27, 2007 at 6:59 pm#53300

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 27 2007,10:45)

John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).

Here is a passage that describes a man holding within himself a not-yet-living person. But he is not holding with himself the actual person, is he? He is holding within himself the hope/plan/seed of the person who will be.

This is an important concept as it relates to John 1:1, imho.

Hebrews 7:9, 10
“One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, [/B]Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

May 27, 2007 at 7:02 pm#53301

Participant

Ha – well, I tried to “bold” the part I wanted to stress. So much for getting the buttons down. At any rate, LEVI WAS STILL IN THE BODY OF HIS FATHER.

How was he in the body of his Father? How was the Word “with” God?

May 27, 2007 at 7:15 pm#53302

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2007,17:56)

The problem you have is there is nothing in these scriptures that indicate he “”would be”, it is very plain that he “was and is”!

WJ,
You say that scripture does not indicate that Jesus “would be” but that he “was and is.” Scripture speaks of Jesus as the Son of God who was born of Mary. Scripture also speaks of the Son that would come who was not-yet-born but existed with the Father and in fact, was the Father (because he was not yet born). All scripture points to these two ideas.

Jesus “came down from heaven” because the Father is in heaven and he is the source of Jesus.

May 27, 2007 at 7:25 pm#53304

Participant

Hi not3,
What of Prov30?

“4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? “
More prophecy?

May 27, 2007 at 7:29 pm#53305

Participant

There is a common Hebrew and Aramaic idiom that when God is the author of something, the Jews spoke of it as “coming from God,” “coming from heaven,” “coming down from heaven,” etc. God said in Malachi that he would “open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing,” and today we still use the word “Godsend” for a for a blessing that comes at just the right time. The bible speaks of the “bread from heaven” referring to manna, but the manna did not float down like snow. Rather, it appeared like frost on the ground. It was said to “come down from heaven” because God was it's source.

The Jews would have naturally understood Christ's statements that way, and there is no evidence at all that they would have expected Christ to be speaking of a literal descent from heaven or an “incarnation.”

May 27, 2007 at 7:37 pm#53307

Participant

Hi not3,
Many use this same argument to deny Christ is even the true son of God.

May 27, 2007 at 7:38 pm#53308

Participant

Prophesy – yes! Did the spirit son have a name? Where does the OT tells us what his name is? Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent. It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult? The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!

May 27, 2007 at 7:40 pm#53309

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:37)

Hi not3,
Many use this same argument to deny Christ is even the true son of God.

Of course that is not my belief. But that does go to show you that no matter what we present here, it can be taken in at least two different ways! All we can do is try to see it from the other's point of view. Possibly we might gain some insight to our current belief system?

May 27, 2007 at 7:43 pm#53311

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)

Prophesy – yes! Did the spirit son have a name? Where does the OT tells us what his name is? Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

Hi not3,
The tender shoot describes only the human view of Christ.

Is 53
“1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “

May 27, 2007 at 7:46 pm#53312

Participant

Matthew 1:38
“I am the Lord's servant, ” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said,” Then the angel left her.

This is the moment that God's Son came down from heaven.

May 27, 2007 at 7:49 pm#53313

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:43)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)

Prophesy – yes! Did the spirit son have a name? Where does the OT tells us what his name is? Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

Hi not3,
The tender shoot describes only the human view of Christ.

Is 53
“1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “

And somehow you believe you can seperate Jesus? When he was born he was both flesh and spirit – neither of which existed in any form prior to their forming in the womb. As you and I have discussed before and came to agreement, I believe, that even Jesus' “spirit” was given by his parents. Possibly, I will need to review the conception thread to see if you conceded to that or not? I don't honestly remember.

May 27, 2007 at 7:49 pm#53314

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,02:51)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)

So you scripture base is Strongs?

Hi Nick:

God Bless

Hi 94,
Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons. Strongs has no basis for making such statements as it can show NO occasion when the word LOGOS is translated in the KJV in that way. Thus it reflects prejudice and I suggest should be ignored on this matter.

May 27, 2007 at 7:56 pm#53316

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)

Prophesy – yes! Did the spirit son have a name? Where does the OT tells us what his name is? Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

HiNot3in1 and Nick:

I agree and as to his name this is what the scripture states:

9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Notice that the scripture says HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED. Prophetic? I believe that this indicates, yes.

God Bless

May 27, 2007 at 7:59 pm#53318

Participant

Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons.
*****************
Ah. Thanks for pointing this out.

May 27, 2007 at 8:21 pm#53319

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:49)

Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,02:51)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)

So you scripture base is Strongs?

Hi Nick:

God Bless

Hi Nick:

Sorry Nick, I believe that Strong's concordance has helped me in several circumstances to understand what is being said by the scriptures, and also, translators make mistakes especially since they are biased towards the “trinity doctrine” which you also do not believe, and so what I have stated is what I believe the scripture indicates.

God Bless

May 27, 2007 at 8:40 pm#53322

Participant

Hi not3,
Scripture shows Christ can be seen from two perspectives.

Rom 1
” 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”

May 27, 2007 at 10:12 pm#53323