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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

  • This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by Keith.
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  • May 10, 2006 at 8:41 pm#13494
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (liljon @ May 10 2006,21:37)
    Are there any that say he was created. (Rev 3:14 have diff translations)?
    Plus in John 8:58 he says he is eternal.
    Also his name was the Eternal Father and even if it isn't ALL things were made thorugh him
    John 1:3, Col1


    Hi liljon,
    Jn 8.58
    “….before Abraham was born, I am”
    So when was Abraham born?
    “Eternal” is not a retrospective term.

    Mk 3.29
    “whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an ETERNAL sin.”

    How could sin be retrospective?

    May 11, 2006 at 10:39 am#13520
    Artizan007
    Participant

    Hey Nick,

    You said;
    So how can Christ be such things if he is only a man? Men are made in the image of God but they are not the image. Men are only the breath of God into a body of clay.They are not begotten from the being of God himself.

    You said man is made in the image of God, Christ is the Image. Is there any difference in that! If so, then…

    1 Corinthians 11:7 says that man is the image and glory of God. Not only made in the image, but we are the image of God.

    May 11, 2006 at 7:18 pm#13526
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Sorry A7 but I cannot find that quote,

    Adam was made in the image of God.

    When God sees us now He sees Christ as we are clothed in Christ [Gal 3.27].
    We have the robe of the righteousness of the Son of God over us [Lk 15.22].
    In Christ too our inner is being transformed into the image of Christ and God.[ Rom 8.29, 2Cor 3.18,4.4,1Cor 15.49,Coll 1.15,]

    May 21, 2006 at 11:30 pm#13931
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Logos can mean the written Word or the person Jesus Christ, the Word.

    But what of Is 45.22f
    “The Word has gone forth from my mouth in righteouness and will not turn back, that to Me every Knee will bow, every tongue confess allegiance.
    They will say of Me
    'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength'
    Men will come to HIM, and all who were angry with HIM will be put to shame.”

    Does this not speak of the PERSON who will bring men back to God in Christ?

    May 22, 2006 at 12:00 am#13933
    NickHassan
    Participant

    ps
    And how can Is 66.5 make sense unless one part of the verse refers to the messiah?

    ” Hear the Word of the Lord, you who tremble at His Word”

    May 25, 2006 at 4:22 am#14099
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    You say God is Logos.
    Where is it written?
    Surely the Logos was begotten and spoken into being from God.

    May 25, 2006 at 5:46 am#14107
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    You know where Nick
    John 1:1-2
    Heb 4:12-13
    1 John 1:1-5

    May 25, 2006 at 6:47 pm#14126
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    So the Word that was WITH GOD was also THE GOD he was with?
    Sounds like theology as confusing as trinity.

    Heb 4.12f
    ” For the WORD OF GOD is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and bare to the eyes of Him with which we have to do”

    So in your view WORD OF GOD means the same as GOD HIMSELF?

    It sounds like the Work of the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ.
    God is in heaven and He sends us of HIS SPIRIT to do His work on earth. The Spirit is of God but God sent His Word and then filled that WORD with His Spirit to reveal Himself to men.

    Earth cannot contain Him.

    May 26, 2006 at 12:25 am#14149
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Jesus knew their thoughts Nick, according to scriptures. How? The Word!
    God alone knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    He knew the thoughts of Sarah in the tent behind Him when talking to Abraham.
    He knew all about Nathaniel, the woman at the well…
    That was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit – or all who are born of God would have the same ability.

    May 26, 2006 at 12:48 am#14151
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 26 2006,01:25)
    Jesus knew their thoughts Nick, according to scriptures. How? The Word!
    God alone knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    He knew the thoughts of Sarah in the tent behind Him when talking to Abraham.
    He knew all about Nathaniel, the woman at the well…
    That was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit – or all who are born of God would have the same ability.


    Hi Malcolm,
    Jesus was fully blessed in all the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit including the Word of knowledge, which he used to see Nathaniel under the fig tree, knew the woman at the well had had several husbands, and knew the thoughts of the Pharisees.
    Those same gifts shown in 1 Cor 12-14, not all in any individual, and are still present and shared among the church today in the branches of the Vine.

    This is all the Work of the One Spirit of God, the finger of God, as shown in 1Cor. God is in heaven but does all of his work outside of heaven by His Spirit.

    May 26, 2006 at 10:32 am#14181
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,01:48)

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 26 2006,01:25)
    Jesus knew their thoughts Nick, according to scriptures. How? The Word!
    God alone knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    He knew the thoughts of Sarah in the tent behind Him when talking to Abraham.
    He knew all about Nathaniel, the woman at the well…
    That was not the baptism of the Holy Spirit – or all who are born of God would have the same ability.


    Hi Malcolm,
    Jesus was fully blessed in all the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit including the Word of knowledge, which he used to see Nathaniel under the fig tree, knew the woman at the well had had several husbands, and knew the thoughts of the Pharisees.
    Those same gifts shown in 1 Cor 12-14, not all in any individual, and are still present and shared among the church today in the branches of the Vine.

    This is all the Work of the One Spirit of God, the finger of God, as shown in 1Cor. God is in heaven but does all of his work outside of heaven by His Spirit.


    Those gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor 12-14 are gifts OF THE SPIRIT. The One same Spirit of God is behind every one of those gifts – which are not of the gifted (although subject to the gifted) but are of God.
    However the discernment of spirits mentioned in 1 Cor 12-14 is not the same as this manifestation of God's Word nature – it is discernment of spirits not men's hearts, with which the Church is to judge the spiritual gifts.

    May 26, 2006 at 10:41 am#14187
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    Yes. But is that also the nature and power of God. If you say both God and the Spirit live in us is that Spirit not that God, and is God inert and not associated with the work of His own Spirit through men?

    May 26, 2006 at 11:26 am#14191
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,11:41)
    Hi Malcolm,
    Yes. But is that also the nature and power of God. If you say both God and the Spirit live in us is that Spirit not that God, and is God inert and not associated with the work of His own Spirit through men?


    Is God inert? No. Is the life of any father inert in his son?
    'Both God and the Spirit live in us'? I don't say that Nick.
    If the life of a father enlivens his son then both he and his life does not live in that son – his life lives in that son.

    May 26, 2006 at 5:22 pm#14198
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    A natural man transmits life to his son but does not live his own human life through that son.

    May 27, 2006 at 3:07 am#14217
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2006,18:22)
    Hi Malcolm,
    A natural man transmits life to his son but does not live his own human life through that son.


    I never said he does Nick, Jesus was born the son of God – a son who had existed before with his Father. On Jordan the spirit of God indwelt His tabernacle to identify with Humanity.

    May 27, 2006 at 7:36 am#14219
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    God's thoughts and plans are executed by the expressed word of His being, Christ.

    So the being, the Word of God in scripture, is Jesus Christ, the beloved only begotten Son of God.

    Surely you agree or is not our God made as a God of confusion?

    May 27, 2006 at 9:52 am#14234
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2006,08:36)
    Hi Malcolm,
    God's thoughts and plans are executed by the expressed word of His being, Christ.

    So the being, the Word of God in scripture, is Jesus Christ, the beloved only begotten Son of God.

    Surely you agree or is not our God made as a God of confusion?


    Well Nick
    I believe God made all things by him (the son)
    that He redeemed men by him (the son)
    and that He will rule with men by him (the son).
    But the same God appeared to the fathers (of Israel) – veiled in a pillar of fire and spoke through prophets. (Heb 1:1)
    He was a Father to His child Israel (Ex 4:22)
    Yet They did not know Him in a personal way as He desired to know them but were instead rebellious, refusing to hear His Word through Moses – they refused to circumcise the foreskin of their hearts and sought a Law instead of God's Grace. (Mt 23:37)
    They wanted something they could do and commandments they could keep. Instead of accepting His provided way and putting their hope and faith in this.
    They wanted a King and to be like other nations when God had called them to be separate and unlike other nations, He desired to be their King.
    He gave them the desire of their hearts but sent leanness to their souls.

    Yet in all this He had a redeemer for them, a savior for His firstborn flock and for the rest of His sheep. So the Father sent the son and through him – God saved us. This son had been completely unknown to them so that they had no concept of him from the scriptures, except for a few obscure promises which were manifestly declared by his appearing.
    So the same God who had been distant to them in the times past, in differing forms and speaking through His servants the prophets – was made nigh through His servant and son Jesus Christ.
    And through him (the son) God was reconciled to men and His Spirit was able to come back upon men – they could be reborn and become once again the sons of God they were intended to be before sin interrupted the plan. And were able once again to be led by His Spirit and to come to eternal life.

    I don't think God is a God of confusion at all, rather a God who is hidden and revealed in simplicity.

    May 27, 2006 at 10:04 am#14235
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Malcolm,
    Some men found reconciliation, and these are the sons of God.
    2 Cor 5.20
    “..we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God”

    That same Spirit of Christ was in the word given to Moses and in the prophets[1Cor 10.4, 1Peter 10f]

    May 28, 2006 at 9:29 am#14271
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote
    That same Spirit of Christ was in the word given to Moses and in the prophets[1Cor 10.4, 1Peter 10f]

    The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, the Word of the Lord that came to the prophets Heb 1:1 says GOD spoke to the fathers in the prophets.

    I JOHN 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    We can confirm that the Father and the Holy Ghost are one for the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows, when Mary his mother was espoused to her husband Joseph she was found to be with child of the Holy Ghost. We read in the gospel of John that God is a Spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and truth.
    The Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus Christ – they are one and the same Spirit.
    There is no exception here with the Word it is one and the same Spirit – not three persons the one person of God, for in the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

    Some get this scripture confused and read it the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – but it does not say this. It says the Word.
    Now this is not to deny that Jesus Christ was Word before he came to earth as flesh.
    He undoubtedly was, and is.

    PHILIPPIANS 2:5-7
    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    You are right it is the same Spirit of Christ that was the Word of the Lord that came to the prophets.
    The same Spirit of Christ that met Paul on the Damascus road in a pillar of fire – which Paul recognized to be Jehovah of the old testament. Who revealed Himself to be Jesus of the new testament.
    For this is the revelation of Jesus Christ that Peter received from God: that he was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
    Jesus was the Christ – the Messiah – the one anointed with God and therefore god to the people (Jn 10:35) but that is not all
    He was also the son of the God who is Living – the Father of the Son – the Father with life in Himself (Jn 5:26) (Jn 6:57-58) (Jn 6:63)
    So the revelation of Jesus Christ to Peter was Father and Son.
    Peter who got this revelation was commanded with the other disciples to baptize the new believers in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. He obeyed this command on the day of Pentecost when he told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
    The name of Jesus Christ is the NAME (singular) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus came in his Father's name to declare his Father to men.
    God's Spirit is in His church known by the same name (Jesus Christ) to lead and guide us by His Word (Spirit and Truth).
    The same God that anointed the prophets of old indwelt His son – making him Messiah – God's Christ.

    May 28, 2006 at 10:07 am#14272
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 28 2006,10:29)
    The Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus Christ – they are one and the same Spirit.


    Hi Malcolm,
    When a father begets a son they do not have the same spirit.

    The spirit of each is utterly individual and separate and returns to God at death.

    That is why a son is a son and not the result of a propagation of a colony of cells on an agar plate.

    Neither is the Son of God a clone of God, but an image.

    Scripture says that the Son was given to have life in himself.

    Because he is derived from God alone does not mean we should assume he is not a son but a portion of God with no differences between them.

    You do not have the spirit of Adam, or even your father but your own surely.

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