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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 16, 2021 at 11:41 am#872836
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    This is not correct. The Bible does not teach this.

    It is more accurate to say that God has divine nature than divine nature is God.

    We can inherit divine nature. So when we have divine nature, then are we God? No. It means that we have divine nature the same nature as God and that we are Sons.

    Thus God is a person. An identity. His nature is not what defines him as God. Once again, this confusion would not exist if people understood the difference between identity and nature. So much confusion here it amazes me because it is not a hard concept to grasp at all. I wonder what blocks people’s minds to understanding simple truths.

    Anyway. God is a Spirit right? Is it then correct to say that spirit / spirits are God? No, because angels are spirit beings. They are spirits.

    Likewise, if the Son is divine, then that does not mean that he is eternal like God is eternal. It doesn’t make the Son the same age (so to speak) as the Father.

    There are different kinds of infinities in mathematics. One infinity is eternal forward and backward. Future and past. When we inherit eternal life, then we will also be eternal. But not in the same sense as God. Jesus on the other hand is before all things. He is the oldest. In fact, he was the first to be with God. But he is not God himself.

    You can make an analogy with Eve. She is the oldest human to be born human. She came from Adam. But Adam came directly from God. He is the Son of God too in that respect.

    August 16, 2021 at 3:47 pm#872842
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hello brother Gene, thanks for your post to me. We are debating here on the Messiahship of Jesus. In fact there are no two comings of Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Vicarious Atonement of Jesus is another myth. In fact human sacrifice is abomination to Yahweh.

    I am not misguided by anyone and in fact I am on search for true religion of the Hebrew Bible. You can not win your arguments on human Jesus here as the NT is full of mythologies on Jesus stating that he was preexisting as a spirit being or a god as often argued by Mike, Proclaimer and others on this Forum. He is even called as God by the writer of the Fourth Gospel by putting such words in the mouth of doubting Thomas. The list goes on.

    The fourth gospel says that the Word was divine. There is no definite article in the last mention of theos.

    As for the New Testament that you say is myth, well ask yourself (not us) does the Old Testament say that it is the complete revelation and plan of God? It doesn’t. In fact, each book was written at a different time. There is no THE END in the last book.

    What the Old Testament does is introduce The Law and the Prophets and it never mentions anywhere that there will be no more prophets does it?

    Let’s address prophecies first. They are things that will happen in the future which the Old Testament cannot record, simply because it was already written. So logically speaking, when prophecies come to pass, then it seems that more writings are necessary to talk about this, frame it in the context, and perhaps introduce more prophecy for the future that is yet to happen. Your view for some unknown reason is that this is never allowed to happen. Why not?

    Now for The Law. It teaches us about sin and it actually ends up condemning us because you, me, and everyone else has sin in their life. This is not a good place to leave people. Once the concept is understood and obeyed, what we need after that is a plan by which to deal with sin that we have committed which is condemned. Enter Grace. Jesus Christ a prophet was sent by God to give and teach grace to mankind. All mankind, past, present, and future benefits from this and the accompanying work to follow. But since you have rejected the prophet Jesus and God’s grace, then what plan do you have to deal with the sins you have committed and that you struggle with?

    You have no plan. And because you do not believe a plan is forthcoming, then you are condemned by the very book you believe is the full truth?

    August 16, 2021 at 3:49 pm#872843
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    You wrote:

    This is not correct. The Bible does not teach this.

    LU:Yes it does teach that. For starters, the Bible teaches that the Son is the Firstborn of the God He calls “Father.” Col 1:15

    The Bible also teaches that the Son is the exact representation of the Father’s nature. Heb 1

    The Bible also teaches that the Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the work of the Son’s hands. Heb 1

    The Bible also teaches that there is one God and one Lord and that YHVH is both God and Lord. 1 Cor 8:6, Deut 10:17.

    The Bible also teaches that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD (YHVH). Phil 2:10-11

    Proclaimer:It is more accurate to say that God has divine nature than divine nature is God.

    LU:Who said divine nature is God?

    Proclaimer: We can inherit divine nature. So when we have divine nature, then are we God? No. It means that we have divine nature the same nature as God and that we are Sons.

    LU: The Bible does not say that we “inherit” divine nature. We will share in divine nature meaning we will put on the righteousness of Christ and change from being corruptible to incorruptible.

    Proclaimer: Thus God is a person. An identity. His nature is not what defines him as God. Once again, this confusion would not exist if people understood the difference between identity and nature. So much confusion here it amazes me because it is not a hard concept to grasp at all. I wonder what blocks people’s minds to understanding simple truths.

    LU:God is a person with another person who is the Lord. They are together YHVH and each identified as YHVH.

    Proclaimer: Anyway. God is a Spirit right?

    LU: God is spirit, not “a” spirit, but He has a spirit.

    Proclaimer: Is it then correct to say that spirit / spirits are God? No, because angels are spirit beings. They are spirits.

    LU:Not applicable since God is spirit, not a spirit.

    Proclaimer: Likewise, if the Son is divine, then that does not mean that he is eternal like God is eternal. It doesn’t make the Son the same age (so to speak) as the Father.

    LU: If something is said to be divine, you are correct, that does not mean that it is eternal like God is eternal. The Son is eternal because He is the exact representation of God’s divine nature and that divine nature is eternal.

    Proclaimer: There are different kinds of infinities in mathematics. One infinity is eternal forward and backward. Future and past. When we inherit eternal life, then we will also be eternal. But not in the same sense as God. Jesus on the other hand is before all things. He is the oldest. In fact, he was the first to be with God. But he is not God himself.

    LU: I’d rephrase that as Jesus is the only Begotten God, not the unbegotten God himself. The Eternal One with eternal essence took from His eternal essence and gave eternal essence to reproduce another One to contain the eternal essence. Resulting in two with eternal essence, a father and a son. The Eternal One gave of Himself to become a father with a son. It wasn’t until the Eternal One gave the eternal essence of Himself that the Eternal One became a father and not only a father but a father with a son.

    So either there was a time when:

    the Eternal One was not yet a father with a son.

    OR there was not a time when the Eternal One was not yet a father with a son. i.e the son always existed in some manner.

    Either way, the essence is eternal in both the Father and the Son. Therefore, the Father and the Son are both eternal in essence. The essence in both has always existed. Their essence is identical in age.

    Proclaimer: You can make an analogy with Eve. She is the oldest human to be born human. She came from Adam. But Adam came directly from God. He is the Son of God too in that respect.

    Eve wasn’t born. Adam came directly from dirt. The dirt came from God. God made Adam out of the dirt. Adam was not made out of eternal essence. Dirt was not eternal, it was created. There was a time when dirt was not.

    I hope that helps.

    August 16, 2021 at 5:42 pm#872844
    gadam123
    Participant

    The fourth gospel says that the Word was divine. There is no definite article in the last mention of theos.

    As for the New Testament that you say is myth, well ask yourself (not us) does the Old Testament say that it is the complete revelation and plan of God? It doesn’t. In fact, each book was written at a different time. There is no THE END in the last book.

    Hello Proclaimer, thanks for your post to me. In fact I am not interested in your logics on whether Word was divine or the divine as it was created by the writer of the Fourth Gospel to insert man Jesus into divine duo.

    August 16, 2021 at 5:56 pm#872845
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Then why mention it. To score points probably. But you get zero points with your post because the evidence you supplied is faulty. Have another go. Keep it factual if you can and we all might learn something. Thanks in advance.

    August 16, 2021 at 6:48 pm#872846
    gadam123
    Participant

    Then why mention it. To score points probably. But you get zero points with your post because the evidence you supplied is faulty. Have another go. Keep it factual if you can and we all might learn something. Thanks in advance.

    Hi Proclaimer, sorry it’s not I who mentioned about the Word. Please refer my post to Gene which you  have replied.

    Hello brother Gene, thanks for your post to me. We are debating here on the Messiahship of Jesus. In fact there are no two comings of Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Vicarious Atonement of Jesus is another myth. In fact human sacrifice is abomination to Yahweh.

    I am not misguided by anyone and in fact I am on search for true religion of the Hebrew Bible. You can not win your arguments on human Jesus here as the NT is full of mythologies on Jesus stating that he was preexisting as a spirit being or a god as often argued by Mike, Proclaimer and others on this Forum. He is even called as God by the writer of the Fourth Gospel by putting such words in the mouth of doubting Thomas. The list goes on.

    Again coming to your logics on how Hebrew Bible is not sufficient for a legal religion;

    It is the imagination of Christianity that Hebrew Bible is incomplete without the NT. You can find every thing in it what a religion preaches and needs for human spirituality. I don’t think it is incomplete. In fact Christianity needed OT for it’s new religion to make it authoritative. Christian concept of Vicarious Atonement for sins of mankind is another myth as the human sacrifice is an abomination to Yahweh.

     

    August 16, 2021 at 7:24 pm#872848
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    The eternity of God or God has always existed and therefore its nature

     

    Psalm 90: 2
    Before the mountains were produced, or before you formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

     

    Psalm 93: 2
    Your throne has been established since ancient times; You exist from all eternity.

    Psalm 55:19
    God will hear and humble them, He who sits on his throne from all eternity; -Pause. For there is no change in them, neither do they fear God.

    August 16, 2021 at 7:41 pm#872849
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    Jesus IS “the brightness of the glory of the Father, and the express image of HIS person, … (Hebrews 1: 3)

    person

    5287
    hupostasis
    hoop-os’-tas-is

    from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance.

    ESSENCE, PERSON, SUBSTANCE = DIVINE NATURE

    BUT DIVINE NATURE IS ALSO HIS SPIRITUAL CHARACTER: HIS GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, LOVE, …. WHAT WE MUST PARTICIPATE IN AS THE APOSTLE PETER RECOMMENDS. (2 Peter 1: 4)

    August 16, 2021 at 7:44 pm#872850
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    Thank you for your good post and God bless you.

     

    August 16, 2021 at 7:48 pm#872851
    gadam123
    Participant

    Ezekiel 37:25… They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.

    Adam, is your coming messiah, who will be a regular old human being in every possible way, going to live forever?

    Hi Mike, thanks for your reply to my post. The verse you quoted from Ezekiel 37 states that God’s servant David will be the prince of restored kingdom of Judah and Israel.

    Here Ezekiel prophesies that David would be their shepherd and king. Now, David was long dead when they returned from the first exile. So, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled then if Ezekiel was referring to the David in Israel’s history. He would have to be referring to another David who would yet come. Who then was that David and had he come when that first restoration from exile took place? We read in Ezekiel 34:23-24 – “I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken.” Again, we read in Ezekiel 37:24–25 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.” This David could only be referring to the Messiah who would yet come and not to the historical David who had already died. David was a type of the Messiah who would come in the future. When the people of Israel came back to their homeland under Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubbabel, the Messiah had not yet come, but He would come to their descendants in the future.

    Yes he will not be an old man as you rightly pointed out but he will certainly be a warrior prince. It will be an end time Messianic kingdom where the Israelites will live there forever with their children and grandchildren and David will be their prince forever. I think this is possible with resurrection beliefs in the Hebrew religion. It may even be possible that the original David himself will be the Prince as mentioned in Ezek 37:25 as there will be resurrection of the dead in future.

    Hope this will answer your query.

    August 16, 2021 at 7:51 pm#872852
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God has divine nature, but many doctrines argue that divine nature has God

    Here is a difference between identity and nature.

    You can change your nature, but you are still you.

    If nature defines God, then when you participate in divine nature, then you are God.

    Let’s look at another example.

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    Are you then saying that the Word that was divine and became flesh which is Jesus Christ, is not the Word that was with God, but two different persons? The Word and Jesus Christ?

    Because having divine nature and emptying oneself and coming in the flesh doesn’t mean we are talking about two persons.

    Do you understand the logic that many here follow? An identity can change nature and remain the same identity.

    God is defined as an Identity. ‘The God’ doesn’t mean nature / divinity. Jesus is not God because he is not the God of the universe.

    God has divine nature, but many argue that divine nature has God.

    August 16, 2021 at 8:57 pm#872859
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I should add this.

    Many think God is a nature or substance. So all who have that nature are God.

    But God is a HIM and HE. A committee of persons with divine nature are not God and would certainly not be addressed as HE or HIM.

    Here is the truth.

    God is the Father. Jesus is his Son. We are the Sons of God. Jesus calls us brethren. God calls us children.

    Jesus is not God, he is one of us or more accurately, we are one of him. He is a Son of God, in fact The Son of God.

    Our God is the God of Jesus Christ too.

    This is the truth and it is written.

    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    August 16, 2021 at 11:49 pm#872862
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    You are wrong

    The bible Say  That the son OF God IS “THEOS “AND THAT THE FATHER IS “THE THEOS” (JOHN 1)

    The Son IS “THEOS” BECAUSE HE IS THE OWN SON OF GOD( THE THEOS)

     

    WHO IS THE GOD IN PERSONALITY?

    ANSWER:THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST.

    GOD THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND HE IS GOD IN NATURE.

    JESUS CHRIST IS THE OWN SON OF GOD AND HE IS GOD IN INFINITY(IN ESSENCE) BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY

     

    August 17, 2021 at 1:43 am#872863
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……The bible says,   “But unto us (true believers) there is but “ONE” GOD, and “ONE”  MEDIATOR,  between men and God,  the “MAN” Jesus Christ.

     

    You say Jesus is a God,  but God said in Isiah he look for another God and found NONE. He also said , “HE ALONE WAS GOD AND THERE WAS NO OTHER GOD.” SCRIPTURE, ALSO Says,  “for God is “NOT” a man, that he should lie, nor A “SON OF MAN”that he should repent”.  JESUS SAID HE WAS A SON OF MAM OVER 80 TIMES. 

    AND Jesus also said ,  who you say you believe in, this, ……. “This is eternal life, that they might know ‘YOU” Father,  THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD”….., and Jesus Christ who you have sent. ” 

    Berean tell us exactly what part of those scriptures you do not believe, it looks like you believe none of them. So why call Jesus your lord and do not believe what he and scriptures both say?

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

    August 17, 2021 at 2:08 am#872864
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……… God is Spirit and he is Devine nature,  he can “indwell”  us and then we become partakers of that Devine nature also,  but as you said , none of that makes us a God,  the same applies to Jesus .

    “Now if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the Grave be dwell in you , he who raised Christ Jesus from the grave will also quicken your mortal “BODY”, by the Spirit that dwells “in” you.

    The same thing that happened to Jesus Christ will happen to those the have that “Devine” SPIRIT “IN” them also. Having that Devine Spirit “in” us makes us partakers of God the fathers Devine nature.  Exactly the same as Jesus , but as you said none of that makes us GODS, nor did it make Jesus a God either.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    August 17, 2021 at 7:19 am#872865
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, sorry it’s not I who mentioned about the Word. Please refer my post to Gene which you  have replied.

    Fair enough gadam. But I will say that you make the argument here that the New Testament is inconsistent in that it teaches he is God then a man etc.

    In actual fact the New Testament is consistent whether it is true or not. Here is the main narrative wrapped up in a few verses. The rest of the New Testament concurs with this. It is very consistent . What has got in the way for many is millenia of traditions mostly started by powerful misguided men. Once you block tradition out and read the New Testament for what it says, then it is very clear and consistent.

    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
        did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
        by taking the very nature of a servant,    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
        he humbled himself
        by becoming obedient to death—
            even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
        and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
        in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
        to the glory of God the Father.

    Of course for you,this is the myth. That God paid the highest price for our souls by paying the debt of sin which is death by sending his best. His only begotten Son. The first to be with him

     

    August 17, 2021 at 7:26 am#872866
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    Proclaimer
    You are wrong
    The bible Say  That the son OF God IS “THEOS “AND THAT THE FATHER IS “THE THEOS” (JOHN 1)

    Using that measuring stick, then angels and men are also God. Theos without the definite article just like John 1:1c means a qualitative interpretation rather than a literal one  identifying a person.

    Theos

    1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    3) spoken of the only and true God
    3a) refers to the things of God
    3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
    4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    4a) God’s representative or viceregent
    4a1) of magistrates and judges

    Now look at all the persons who are God according to your understanding if you were to be consistent.

    Father

    Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

    Jesus / Word

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

    Men / Judges

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’

    Angels

    All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

    Earthquake

    And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great (elohim) trembling.

    Both elohim and theos are used in qualitative ways. You cannot take every instance of theos or elohim and say they are always God. Even idols are called elohim and theos. It is like the difference between being the Most High and having a high position of authority. The latter doesn’t make you the Most High.

    August 17, 2021 at 8:35 am#872867
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You are very nice, but I think there is no point in trying to convince myself of something that I do not believe.
    The bible teaches that the Son of God, named by John: “THE WORD” was God (Theos) in the beginning (John1: 1) and that he was made flesh (v.14) This is what I believe .

    August 17, 2021 at 8:51 am#872868
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    I think you meant this comment for me:

    Proclaimer: But God is a HIM and HE. A committee of persons with divine nature are not God and would certainly not be addressed as HE or HIM.

    LU:Then Israel is not a collective noun because God refers to Israel with the singular pronouns of him and he and the singular noun firstborn son.

    Then Jesus is not being truthful when He says that “the Father and I are One?”

    Btw, may I ask a favor…when you respond to my post in the future, would you mind giving me the common courtesy of addressing me so that I don’t have to read every post of yours to others in order to find your response to me?

    Thanks!

    August 17, 2021 at 8:54 am#872869
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    And the Word WAS “THEOS”

    The context, you admit it means “DIVINE”
    Now, HEBREWS 1: 3, HOW ARE YOU INTERPRETING?

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

    DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS ACCORDING TO HEBREWS 1 EXCEPT THE SON OF GOD?

    THE BRIGTNESS OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON (ESSENCE)

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