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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • January 20, 2021 at 2:38 pm#869040
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    LU: He begat His Son before He created anything.

    CARMEL: Where in the bible one can read the above?

    Col 1

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16for [y]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

     

     

    January 20, 2021 at 2:56 pm#869044
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    So you don’t think that it was the Father that established the plan for the Son to become the Messiah, the sacrificial lamb?

    The Son did not establish the plan, He was willingly obedient though, to follow  His Father’s plan.

    The Father gives the vision, the Son carries out the vision, imo.

    January 21, 2021 at 11:57 am#869055
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU: Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:

    Me So for you the above asserts that God begat His Son before creation, Even if it doesn’t  clerly says so!

    Now when we read John1:1 it doesn’t say that

    in the beginning was BEGOTTEN  the Son, but

    in the beginning was “THE WORD”

    Which  is totally different, despite we believe that “THE WORD” is the Son.

    So to me there was no begotten at all!

    Simply as “THE WORD” is just a SPIRIT, Jesus’, still in the process to become

    SON OF MAN. Not yet Jesus the man. the fact that John said:

    “THE WORD” was made flesh.

    Not the Son was made flesh! A clear reference to Jesus’spirit.

    We all know that the Son came in all things like his brethren which means that

    Jesus as a human being had

    a flesh body and a soul on His birth on earth! Well clear in

    1John5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ:

    not by water only, but by water and blood……

    Notice the above made it clear, and mentioned both the water/SOUL, and the blood,/FLESH,  and also Jesus Christ, not just Jesus, simply as on Jesus death both “THE WORD” Jesus’ flesh, the human nature, God all knowing, originally a spirit, embodied in Eve, slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world.Rev 13:8

    and the Holy Ghost, attributed to the Son, Jesus’soul, the divine nature, originally in Adam the living soul,  integrated and became

    ONE SUBSTANCE. John13:31-32., John17:1 Both Son of God  and Son of Man.

    THE NEW ADAM in

    JESUS CHRIST UNIQUE, THE HIGHEST, and MOST POWERFUL, FOR THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER!

    GODMAN ON EARTH! a state the Father hasn’t got yet. The fact that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit from the Father.

    Thus when Jesus was born, His soul and his flesh were not integrated as ONE, but separated like we all are separated, the fact that He had two natures, divine and human. and unless both our flesh and our souls are integrated as ONE, God knows when,  we are not yet in the truth CHILDREN OF GOD yet, but simply, SONS OF GOD while we are on earth IN CHRIST, and  SOULS still in the process to become so, and as  humans of earth, we would be dust till the day of the Lord!Well clear in

    1 John 3:5 Dearly beloved,

    we are now the sons of God;

    and it hath NOT YET APPEARED WHAT WE SHALL BE.

    We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

    Now back to our point, regarding WHEN Jesus was begotten,

    let’s read

    Acts 13:33 This same God hath fulfilled to our children, raising up Jesus, as in the SECOND PSALM also is written: Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Psalm 2 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    Both the above are a clear reference to Jesus resurrection! also mentioned by Jesus in

    Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead,…..

    Now hereunder there’s a Psalm DRB version, which particularly mentions the words:

    I BEGOT YOU!

    Psalm 110:3 With thee is the principality in the day of thy strength: in the brightness of the saints: from the womb before the day star

    I begot thee.

    Though it is camouflaged, it is also related to Jesus resurrection!

    Now hereunder are the most common references regarding when Jesus was begotten, but they are not clear enough when it actually occurred!

    Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels hath he said at any time, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    Hebrews 5:5 So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    January 21, 2021 at 12:39 pm#869056
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU: So you don’t think that it was the Father that established the plan for the Son to become the Messiah, the sacrificial lamb?

    ME: I said Jesus established HIMSELF AS THE REDEEMER ONCE HE ACCEPTED

    GOD’ SPLAN

    So I won’t say the Father, but GOD’s plan!

    John10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and

    to whom the Son will reveal him.

    This means BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON, God’s process are always in harmony in

    the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!

    They represent the power, wisdom, and love respectively of God which are most vital in all God’s work.

    YOU: The Son did not establish the plan, He was willingly obedient though, to follow  His Father’s plan.

    The Father gives the vision, the Son carries out the vision, imo.

    But that still depends on the Son!

    ME: Personally I don’t separate God’s work and put the Father as a superior figure!

    the kingdom of God is of the Son not of the Father, 

    The fact that He is  A SPIRIT and was not in the position to become human.

    The kingdom at the very end would be  manifested throughout  in the

    FLESH BODY OF THE SON JESUS

    THE BRIDE

    THE NEW JERUSALEM Again furnished by the Father! This is pure humility from God that the Father is ALWAYS manifested PHYSICALLY in the Son Jesus Christ,

    John17:2As thou hast given him power over

    ALL FLESH,

    that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. 

    THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL IN THE SON!

    JESUS CHRIST

    GOD’S EMBODIMENT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    I look at it as it was His task as the spirit source, POWER, while to the Son was allocated WISDOM, and the Holy Spirit, LOVE.

    When it comes to an introduction of a new task, the Holy Spirit MOVES in! Genesis 1:2,

    Jesus’ birth, Pentecost, but that’s doesn’t mean that the Father and the Son are not in it.

    NOT POSSIBLE!!!

    John8:29  And he that sent me, is with me,

    and he hath not left me alone:( Notice it is in the present perfect tense,  initiated in the past)

    for I do always the things that please him. (obvious THEY ARE TOGETHER AS ONE)

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    January 21, 2021 at 12:41 pm#869057
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    LU: Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:

    Carmel: So for you the above asserts that God begat His Son before creation, Even if it doesn’t clearly says so!

    4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, “first, pre-eminent” and 5088 /tíktō, “bring forth”)

    Firstborn, first begotten, same thing. Therefore, Col 1:15 does refer to a begetting. In the context, the Firstborn created all things visible and invisible, therefore He was begotten before He created.

    January 21, 2021 at 1:08 pm#869058
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel:

    Carmel: Personally I don’t separate God’s work and put the Father as a superior figure!

    1 Cor 11:3

    But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

    January 22, 2021 at 9:59 am#869065
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God is the head of Christ.

    This disproves the Binity as it requires that it be written that the Father is the head of Christ.

    How can God be his head if Christ is God. Is he his own head. Is he a servant of himself.

    All these doctrines are stupid. They create oxymorons.

    Keep it simple because the truth is simple and clear. For us there is one God the Father and his Son was appointed Lord.

    Its amazing how the spirit of man wrestles against the Spirit of God. It shows how man is naturally at emnity with God.

    January 22, 2021 at 11:10 am#869067
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

      Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:

    Carmel: So for you the above asserts that God begat His Son before creation, Even if it doesn’t clearly says so!

    4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, “first, pre-eminent” and 5088 /tíktō, “bring forth”)

    Firstborn, first begotten, same thing. Therefore, Col 1:15 does refer to a begetting. In the context, the Firstborn created all things visible and invisible, therefore He was begotten before He created.

     

    ME:  Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,

    The above Lu, is a reference to Jesus’ when He possessed

    THE HUMAN BODY AND BECAME VISIBLE, AS A MERE CHILD. Isaiah 9:6

    Precisely the image of THE INVISIBLE God.

    the firstborn of all creation: Other scriptures say: the firstborn of EVERY creature, which is more precise in relation to “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man, as a spirit, in the process of creation. Where He eternally is. John6:27

    Now the above though is a reference to

    JESUS AS A SPIRIT, not yet, as the image of the invisible God!

    NOT YET BEGOTTEN!

    the word BEGET means to procreate as the father.

    God the Father, didn’t procreate His Son before creation!

    John8:42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me.

    For from God I proceeded, and came;

    In the above Jesus made it clear that

    HE PROCEEDED AND CAME FROM THE FATHER! Definitely when he was still

    “THE WORD”a spirit,

    NOT BEGOTTEN YET!

    John8:43 Why do you not know my speech?

    Because you cannot hear my word…. 

    In the above, Jesus referred to HIS SPIRIT “THE WORD”  WITHIN THEIR HEART. Who spoke God’s word for no use and rebelled.

    Thus the Father begot His Son on this planet for the sake of truth as a human being like the rebellious angels/ the Pharisees,  not as a spirit, with

    A SOUL and  A LFESH BODY! and as a spirit, He was neither A SOUL nor A FLESH BODY

    The fact that John said the word/spirit,  was made flesh!

    Now I produced the scriptures regarding when Jesus was begotten;

    when he became a man or a human being, and they mention somehow the word

    “DAY”.  Now, that clearly indicates that it occurred on this planet since, from Genesis 1:2 onward, this planet was subject to THE DAY and THE NIGHT.

    Read this particular one:

    Acts 13:33 This same God hath fulfilled to our children, raising up Jesus, as in the SECOND PSALM also is written: Thou art my Son,

    this day have I begotten thee.

    Now to me, the above is clear evidence that

    JESUS ON A PARTICULAR DAY ON THIS PLANET WAS BEGOTTEN!

    I’m afraid LU with every respect to you, my opinion is right!

    I repeat:

    YOU: He begat His Son before He created anything.

    Me Where in the bible one can read the above?

    Now I ask:

    When was Jesus begotten in relation to the scripture above?

    Have you got any suggestions?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    January 22, 2021 at 12:26 pm#869068
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU: Carmel:

    Carmel: Personally I don’t separate God’s work and put the Father as a superior figure!
    1 Cor 11:3

    But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

    LU, You produce a scripture that doesn’t confirm that

    the Father is superior to the Son, SIMPLY:

    As the title, FATHER is not in it!

    the title GOD is equally related to the Father and the Son;

    they are ONE!

    INSEPARABLE!

    The fact that Paul used that term in order to make it clear that

    Christ is God. as much as

    the body and the head are EQUALLY in

    ONE BODY! INSEPARABLE

    A body is only a body with its head, as without a mere TRUNK while

    A head is only a head with its body, as without a mere SKULL!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    January 22, 2021 at 5:31 pm#869069
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    PC: How can God be his head if Christ is God.

    Two persons are identified as God, one is the Father of the other. Jesus says they are ONE.

    In the Jones Family (for example), there are more than one person. The “Jones” that is the father, is head of the “Jones” that is his son. Understand?

    Both are “Jones”, they are one family unity, and one is the head of the other. This is not hard, Proclaimer.

    January 22, 2021 at 5:37 pm#869070
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    He is the Firstborn of the One he calls his father, not of every creature.

    January 22, 2021 at 5:42 pm#869071
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Carmel: the title GOD is equally related to the Father and the Son; they are ONE!

    They are one WHAT?

    Also, is the church “God” because the head of the church is “God?”

    January 22, 2021 at 8:24 pm#869072
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Two persons are identified as God, one is the Father of the other. Jesus says they are ONE.

    In the Jones Family (for example), there are more than one person. The “Jones” that is the father, is head of the “Jones” that is his son. Understand?

    This is basically the same teaching that is used to support the Trinity.

    It is flawed because God is not a family. He is the Father of a family though. He is higher than you think LU. The most high in fact.

    Scripture is clear. For us there is one God the Father. The Father is the one true God. This God is the God of Jesus and us. He is our Father. But not all are sons or children of God of course, but God is above all, even his own Son.

    The Father is the one true God.

    And God is not a surname as you are suggesting. Once you accept that, then you can basically add in anyone who has God’s name in their name. Like Yeshua or Isaiah for example.

    For us, there is one God the Father.

    January 22, 2021 at 8:28 pm#869073
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Why the need to depart the clear teaching of scripture about who God is and who His Son is. It boggles the mind to see so many humans tampering with special truths.

    Certainly the spirit of man is at emnity with the Spirit of God. This the the natural state of man. We need to be born from above and receive God’s Holy Spirit. Then we can receive the truth which sets us free.

    January 22, 2021 at 9:00 pm#869074
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If God was a family then just as Jesus is the Son of God, the Father would be the Father of God.

    However, deep in the heart of every Believer is the truth that God is the Father and nobody else.

    January 23, 2021 at 7:32 am#869079
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless all

    January 23, 2021 at 11:17 am#869080
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    PC, you write this (without understanding or merely not wanting to understand, idk): If God was a family then just as Jesus is the Son of God, the Father would be the Father of God.

    This is more accurate if the YHVH Unity were a family:

    If the YHVH Unity were a family, then just as Jesus is the Son within the YHVH family, his Father is the Father within the YHVH family.

    It doesn’t have to be so hard! R E S T in this.

    Think…how many persons who are identified specifically as YHVH in the Bible, (not merely containing part of YHVH in their name) took/take part in:

    1. Creation before the ages
    2. Salvation leading to eternal life

    Answer that correctly and you should be able to see more clearly.

     

    January 23, 2021 at 11:19 am#869081
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Berean, another beautiful performance. I have never heard of a panflute.

    God bless you too,

    LU

    January 23, 2021 at 11:52 pm#869089
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If the YHVH Unity were a family, then just as Jesus is the Son within the YHVH family, his Father is the Father within the YHVH family.

    I could make the same argument that they are aliens too.

    But a wise person sticks to scripture and doesn’t let their imagination run wild with things they really know nothing about.

    January 24, 2021 at 1:01 pm#869095
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:He is the Firstborn of the One he calls his father, not of every creature.

    KJV. Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature: 

    16For by him were all things created,

    that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 

    LU, the above scripture clearly says that

    SINCE,

    for by him were all things created, He is the firstborn of every creature!

    The way I see it, God by Jesus as a spirit created every creature for the first time ever.

    In the heavenly realms God by “THE WORD” Jesus, to be clear,

    the Son of Man to be, Jesus’human nature,

    as a spirit, created THE LIGHT, the BIG BANG, which enlightened the entire infinite existence,

    IN ALL THE SPIRITS EMANATED FROM GOD.

    IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD……Then, using those spirits, He

    created the first-ever angel, Lucifer, the first-ever MORNING STAR.

    Then in Genesis 1:2 the first-ever water we know of in scripture, and what follows from then on..as the first.

    Then from the human side, the first man, Adam, the first woman, Eve, the first firstborn son Cain through sex, the first firstborn son not through sex Abel, the first daughter,  and all the firsts which follows like the first who never died, Enoch. the first father Abraham,  the fact that in Colossians above it says:

    the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 

    Thus there’s nothing absolutely nothing which God created as FIRST without Jesus, I repeat

    the Son of Man

    not the Son of God

    Now in creation, God also created the first-ever creature of every species, by Jesus’ always as a spirit.

    I have to mention that Jesus as a spirit was in actual fact embodied in David as the first king over all Israel. The fact that David was the man after God’s own Heart, precisely Jesus in David’s Heart, His creator.

     

    Peace an love in Jesus Christ

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