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[wilsunphi]

Hi Nick, Gene, Kerwin,

Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier. When there are verses that seems to contradict we should try an interpretation that reconciles them. I am surprised how you can disagree, but as far as i recall there are many verses that show children inheriting their fathers’ sins. The only exception that i recall seem to be Ezekiel chapter 18. So we should try to interpret Ezekiel 18 in the light of the other verses.

Exodus 20:4-6 (also in Deutronomy 5)

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Here from the word “for I …” this shows it is a general characteristics of God and not just for the sin of idolatry. In the prophets we see often God criticizing many people as being children of sinners. Jesus himself says in

Mathew 23:31-32

So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

In the Ezekiel 18 we see that God assures that even a sinner’s son if he does not sin will not die for his father’s sin. How do we reconcile this with the above verses. The clue is in Ezekiel 18 itself. Here we see that if a sinner turns from his sins then too he won’t die for his own sins.

To bring these together even though the son inherits his father’s sins, he will die for it only if he too sins.

(If you are interested another theory i have is that we had pre-existences. But we sinned in our pre-existence. Since God and Jesus realized that we won’t be able to pay for our sins by our work, they created this new world and send us here so that Jesus can pay for our sins. God hid himself from us in this world so that we can be justified by faith and Jesus can pay back our sins using our faith. It is like if we cannot work and pay back a debt, we buy a stock and the stock price increases and using that we pay back our debt. Here what God asks us is to bet everything we have on Jesus his only begotten Son.

In this theory when we are born into this world our fathers’ are chosen such that their outstanding sin matches our outstanding sin from the pre-existence. In this way even though we inherit our father’s sins that are really our own sins.)

Nick,

Just because Jesus was born without sin does not mean he did not have the temptation to sin. He subjected himself to the temptations for my sake and also lived a hard life for my sake. He died on the cross for mine and others’ sins. Yes, i follow him.

-Wilson

 

[wilsunphi]

Hi EdJ,

1) I will try to see this over the weekend. I recall hearing about this long back.

2) I was speaking in the context of Matthew 22.

<span id=”en-NASB-23902″ class=”text Matt-22-29″><sup class=”versenum”>29 </sup>But Jesus answered and said to them, <span class=”woj”>“You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.</span></span> <span id=”en-NASB-23903″ class=”text Matt-22-30″><span class=”woj”><sup class=”versenum”>30 </sup>For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.</span></span>

(As a side note that means that most probably in resurrection all the romantic feelings, lust etc. will go away. Why do you think Paul advises us to not waste time romancing females? Because he knows that in the afterlife that will be a wasted effort. 🙂 Probably only platonic love remains.)

Hi t8,

I think we can say like Mary became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. I was fearing that using the word fathered means giving the title of the Father of Jesus to the Holy Spirit as well, in addition to God the Father. Such a title is not used anywhere in the Bible for the Holy Spirit.

Hi Kerwin,

I haven’t seen the video, i assume what you wrote is about the video (i recall hearing about this long back). I will try to reply after i see it.

But the purpose of the virgin birth was so that Jesus does not inherit any sin from the male father. So Jesus’ father is only God and not David or any of his descendants.

-Wilson

 

[wilsunphi]

Hi t8,

If God had wished he could have made Jesus’ body with just 23 chromosomes (just from Mary). We don’t know how Jesus’ body was made. That is why i advice to stick to the text without making assumptions (like using words like ‘fathered’) by extrapolating using our knowledge about the physical world when it comes to the power of God. It was a similar mistake the Sadducees made in their question to Jesus – they just couldn’t imagine that God could remove the male/female distinction in afterlife.

God is the person who enforces the laws of physics at all times and at all places. Without that no cells will work and hence not even the normal conception will work. So by your logic even in a normal conception, there will be multiple physical fathers.

For salvation knowledge of God and of Jesus as the Only Begotten Son of God is necessary. That is why the Bible makes it very easy to understand (although people have made mistakes on that as well with the concept of the Trinity). That is why God has gone to such extent as make the Father-Son relationship in this world, so that he can point to it and say this is how i am to Jesus.

But about the different personhood of the Holy Spirit, i don’t think God expects us to take a position on that for salvation. So IMHO it is better to not use just our knowledge of the world to understand God and the Holy Spirit. (I know the Bible says that God is spirit, but that does not mean he cannot have a spirit of his own. I fear you are using assumptions from this world to understand God.) That is why i advice you to not take a position on that to not do blasphemy.

-Wilson

[wilsunphi]

Hi t8,

The word fathered usually means that one person can be called the father of another. I felt i should point out that statement since only God the Father is called the father of Jesus in the Bible. We see in the Bible that in many places the Holy Spirit comes with the power of God. I haven’t arrived at a conclusion about the separate personhood of the Holy Spirit. From the Bible we see that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, proceeds from the Father and rests on the Son. I prefer to closely stick to the text and not read beyond it, to prevent blaspheming. I also think taking a position on this matter is not necessary for salvation. As the Bible says
‘This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.’

[wilsunphi]

“If the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus”

Hi t8,

It has been a while. How have you been? (Congrats on the upgraded site btw.)

I was just skimming through the pages when i noticed the above quote. I feel using the word ‘fathered’ here is unbiblical because even though Mary became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit, the Father is the one who fathered Jesus. May seem like nitpicking, but felt using the word ‘fathered’ was wrong.

Wilson

[wilsunphi]

I too don’t believe in the trinity, but still believe that Jesus is God’s only begotten son. I recall reading t8’s belief that Jesus is begotton and not created. I think this belief is necessary for salvation. I thought you too were the same.

I have a feeling (though not explicitly supported by scripture – but not opposed by it either) that God made the system of father-son in this world so that man can have a taste, even though a faint one, of the relationship God has with Jesus. So that he can show man an faint example.

[wilsunphi]

Hi t8,
I too have no training in Physics beyond high school.

I saw the video partially. Will try to see it later when I get the time. But from what I saw I think he was trying to put Joshua’s conquest at around 700BC. Or did I get it wrong. But Joshua lived before 1000BC. I had heard about the 360 day calender. I always thought a better explanation could be Uzziah’s earthquake or Hezekiah’s shadow moving backwards incident.

[wilsunphi]

Sorry for the repeat post but just to put a more complete and consice set of arguments.

1) Laws of physics behave to give limited no of possibilities.

2) We are able to imagine much much more no of possibilities.

3) From 1) and 2) we can say that laws of physics and hence the root cause of the laws of physics behave in a non random manner.

4) Root cause of the laws of physics by its definition has no restrictions.

5) From 3) and 4) the root cause of the laws of physics behaves with specific intentions.

Wilson

[wilsunphi]

Hi Pierre,
I got back my old dormant account by resetting the password.

‘many people do not take the time to see,and hear and feel live around them ,because of their priorities they have set up in their own mind’
That is the big tragedy- what is in a person’s apparent immediate interest is not in line with what is in his true immediate and long term interest and he does not recognize this. Sometimes even with recognizing it his flesh compels him.

Absolute truth is relative to God. So it is constant. Or by truth did you mean what a person perceives as truth from the observations around him. That may change with more observations but it won’t contradict the earlier observations.
So while our knowledge and understanding of things around us may be limited they cannot be said as relative.

On a side note when someone rejects trinity they usually reduce Christ to a created being. That is what I like about this site that you adhere to the simple truth that Jesus is God’s only begotten son.

Wilson

[wilsunphi]

Basically whenever a scientist makes a claim that
 
Some laws were followed in an experimental setup => the laws will be followed at all places and at all times.
 
There is a huge logical jump here. The correct logic would be
 
Some laws were followed in a experimental setup AND God makes the same laws apply in all places at all time(which he can also waive at his will) so that man can use the logic he gave him =>  the laws will be followed at all places and at all times.

[wilsunphi]

Hi terrarica,
Sorry that my post confused you. My communication skills were never top notch. The ‘if’s were just to explain concepts. Even without that I think it is a strong logical proof. Please allow me to try again without the ‘if’s this time.
 
1) There is order around us and we are able to manipulate our environment around us. This is because the physical world around us follows some laws which we are able to exploit with our brains. Without these laws of science/physics (that is if the world behaved completely random)  there would not have been any causal relationships and our logic would not apply to the physical world.
 
2) We have the ability to imagine a world much more random than our surrounding. i.e. we are able to imagine a lot of different possibilities if the laws of physics were not followed or even changed a little.
 
3) If there are lots of possibilities and a limited no of possibilities occur all the time then there is something ‘unnatural’ going on. That is the definition of scientific attitude. (When Newton saw the apple falling down all the time instead of moving in other directions he realized something ‘unnatural’ is going on.)
 
4)  1), 2) and 3) together implies that there is something ‘unnatural’ going on in this world all the time. There is no necessity that any laws of physics needs to be followed at all the time and at all the places. Which means someone is making it happen every single second and at every single place in this world.
 
This person may be whom the bible refers to as Wisdom/Logos (ok here it is an ‘if’ but this does not affect the general argument. Besides it would be wrong to go beyond the bible and assert something that is not fully written.).
 
People can go into an infinite recursion into the mechanism of how/why stuff happens like the world is made up of atoms or subatomic particles. (which ofcourse raises the question of why is it necessary that the whole world should follow the same law of being made up of atoms. I mean that we observe that the concept of atoms can explain stuff in the whole world but we don’t find any reason that 1 concept should explain all the stuff in the whole world…It just conveniently and ‘unnaturally’ happens so for us. ). People can go into an infinite recursion but we cannot arrive at a set of laws from completely random behavior without any laws.
 
Basically every single time you want to move an object forward your God-given logic says that if you push it forward it will move forward. This is similar to God giving you a prophecy saying if you push it, I will move forward. Then when you push it the laws of physics holds as God had promised you and it moves forward. This is similar to God fulfilling the prophecy.
 
On a side note, it is nice to meet you. From the forums I assume your name is Pierre. I have been a visitor to this site for about an year. Couldn’t really get around to posting anything. I have learned much from this site and the forums. Thank you and t8 and the rest of the folks.
 
 When I stumbled upon this proof I wanted to post it. I think this is a strong proof in the sense that people cannot make arguments (which are flawed but still they can try to assert it without any proof as we need counterproof) like something complex can evolve from lifeless random something in here.
 

[wilsunphi]

Hi,
I think there is also an alternate proof based on the existence of causal relationships in the universe and our brain’s ability to exploit them using deductive reasoning. I think this may be related to the concept of Logos(Johns)/Wisdom(Proverbs) in the bible.
In this universe we see a lot of consistency/order – much more than we realize. For eg- both of us and everything around are us are made of atoms and all our atoms behave similarly. I mean why is it possible for a human made construct like atom to explain and predict things. What if my body was made of a single large atom and yours of small atoms. Or what if even if my body is made of atoms but all my atoms behave differently from yours. I recently saw a youtube video of proof of God which states that in order to explain that things don’t fall apart (as the video states in order to explain things we need to explain even the constancy of things) we need to have some conservation laws(of charge,mass-energy etc.). I am not able to find it now otherwise i would have linked it. Anyway the argument there was that what conserves these laws. It will go on an infinite recursion if we keep making meta laws that conserves these laws.
What I mean is scientists chase after axioms and theories to explain things. But what is necessary for that is that there should be axioms and laws that should be followed. These laws should be followed at all places(in your body’s atoms, in mine and everywhere else). These laws should also be followed at all times. It is because of these laws that there are causal relationships in this physical world. Otherwise we would never be able to throw a ball forward and expect it to move forward. We would never be able to say if the next moment the universe changes and another universe comes into existence.
Another interesting thing is that our brains are able to exploit these causal relationships. Humans have the ability to make theories and new concepts. (I think that when we were made there was a small set of concepts and relations  and also algorithms to take in new facts and create new concepts hardcoded into our brains. I have a feeling that the algorithm for deductive reasoning was hardcoded into our brains. Which would mean our brains were designed to exploit the causal relationships.I have to think more to come with a conclusive proof). But in any case we know that within the limits of our logic we are able to exploit the causal relationships. We are also within the limits of our logic able to think about infinite alternate possibilities about how things would have been without causal relationships.
When Issac Newton saw the apple fall he thought why does it fall down when there are infinite other possibilities( it can go any direction). He realized that there is something ‘unnatural’ happening. Similarly here there are infinitely more possibilities(that we ourselves can think about) than that is happening around us. So we must know that something ‘unnatural’ is happening all around us.
So that means that there is an entity who enforces the laws at all places at all the time(because the ‘natural’ state according to our logic is complete randomness). An entity who stands between infinite possibilities and a much limited subset of these. An entity who enables logic to work in this world. I think this may be the meaning of the Wisdom/Logos mentioned in the bible (whose earthly incarnation is Jesus Christ).
An atheist can argue into an infinite recursion of mechanism of how things work if he wants. But what is important is that he will never be able to get to a non random consistent laws by starting from a completely random state. In short God made consistency and causal relationships. He gave us the logical ability to exploit these and predict things. He also gave us the ability to imagine more possibilities. So he expects us to realize that he is there.

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