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[UMB5]

 

Your doctrine is made up as nowhere in Scripture is Jesus literally said to be anything other than a human being. The teaching you adhere to looks for ambiguities in words in order to support its claims.

Scripture teaches us there is one human being the mediates between God and humanity and he is Jesus Christ who gave his life for humanity.

There are at least two points that the book of Hebrews makes and they are that Jesus Christ is not an angel and that he is a human being because humanity can only be saved through a human being.

So you believe that Jesus is, always was, and always will be just a man?  Can you please expound on that?  Also –  When Jesus is seen standing in heaven at the right hand of God, do you believe he stood there as a man?

 

[UMB5]

@EDJ

 

(2) Sure, because the words in Heb.2-5 (the situation becomes clear that Jesus was never an Angel at any time
If Jesus were an Angel (at any time), then there is a contradiction between verse 5 and verse 8.

For unto the angels HATH HE NOT put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.” (Heb 2:5

“Thou(JEHOVAH of Armies) hast put all things in subjection under his feet.
For in that he(JEHOVAH) put all in subjection under him(Jesus Christ),
he left nothing that is not put under him.” (Hebrews 2:8)

 

Thank you for your thoughts on this. It is a very interesting one that I will definitely research and look more into.

 

 

 

 

[UMB5]

@nickhassan

Hi UMB5,

Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel and the sound of the trumpet.

Why be selective?

Is Jesus Christ a trumpet to you?

 

Okay…so first of all instead of throwing out insults, just stick to scriptures.  I take it that you are saying that Jesus is not Michael the archangel, however he is coming with Michael, and with the trumpet, however the word Angel is translated “messenger”, so Jesus definitely is the highest messenger, or chief messenger, or arc-messenger.  We also know that punctuation did not exist when the bible writers were writing the bible, so we can not assume this scripture can be translated that way. We can however compare and look at other scriptures.  Compare Rev 12:7 that Michael leads the angels to defeat Satan and hurl him to earth; then in Rev 19:13,19 it says that Christ leads that heavenly army of angels and conducts God’s war.  Daniel 2:1 says that Michael shall stand up, the great prince that stands for the children of thy people.  Also, At Rev: 20:1,2,10 Satan is abyssed by an “angel” for a thousand years, compare to Matt 8:29 the demons indicated that it would be Jesus that would be the one to hurl them into the abyss.  Then Jesus is prophesied to crush Satan’s head (Gen 3:15l 1john 3:8), yet is Michael and his Angels that are conquering Satan in Revelations 12.  The belief that Michael is another name for Jesus is not so silly or clunky…and actually has scriptural backing for that conclusion.  Is it not whether you agree or not, that defines the belief.

 

[UMB5]

Hi UMB5,

(1)Are you asking me this to find out if I believe in “The Rapture”
Or
(2)Are you asking me to explain the verse the way I see things?

No I was not asking about the Rapture; and Yes I was asking for your explanation of this verse the way you see them.

1) There is no rapture – the doctrine of “the Rapture” is man-made

Agreed – but I think we may have just opened up a whole new discussion.

2) If you want a further explanation, please say so;
because I’m incapable of reading a persons mind,
I only have the ability to ascertain words.

I thought maybe because this post is about Jesus being God, a god, an Angel or Son of God; and that scripture says the lord came with the voice of an archangel, you would realize I was asking your thoughts on the scriptures referring the voice of Jesus as an archangel. I do understand the defensive tone however, as some of the discussions on this site are pretty aggressive.

 

[UMB5]

Correction

 

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.” – John 1:18

If no man has ever seen God, than how is Jesus God when lots of people saw him, even after his resurrection?

 

It seems that I am the one who misquoted you. My apologies.

 

[UMB5]

Both of these questions are rhetorical – meaning to NONE of the Angels.

How do we know they are rehetorical?  It seems at looking at the other scriptures above it, its meaning None of the other Angels, because verses 3-4 show that the position given to him by his father, is what made him superior to the angels, just as superior of a name he was given.  It seems that he is just being distinguished from ordinary angels.  Could you help me understand why you say these questions are rhetorical? Also, could you give me your thoughts on 1st Thessalonians 4:16?

[UMB5]

Absolutely!

[UMB5]

@davidL wrote

The Deity of Jesus Christ is what I hold to as the true faith handed down to us by the Apostles, as revealed by the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures.

“I and the Father are One.” – these are the words of Christ

You quoted John 10:30.  I and the father are one. Jesus translates that scripture for you and tells you what he means at John 17:22. He says  “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as we are one.”  he’s talking about the Christian congregation being “one’..JUST AS; OR IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE FATHER AND THE SONE ARE ONE. If you believe he and his father being one…means they are the same exact people..than you must believe these Christians are either the same exact people, or part of the trinity. Or is it that the Christian congregation is to be one in unity, will, and purpose, JUST AS the father and son are one in unity, will and purpose?

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” – Matthew 11:27

This only proves that Jesus is NOT God, otherwise why would he need to have anything handed over to him. Wouldn’t it already belong to him? Jesus tells us himself that he must always be *given* power or authority! (Mt.28:18; 11:27; Jn.5:22,25,26; 17:2; 3:35; 2Pt.1:17). Wouldn’t he already have it, if he were God?

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.” – John 1:18

If no man has ever seen God, than how is Jesus God when lots of people saw him, even after his resurrection? Also..you misquoted the 2nd part of the scripture. It does not read “who is himself God”..it reads, “who is in the bosom of God.”or another translation says “who is in closest relationship to God” which also proves that Jesus is not God?

 

 

 

[UMB5]

@nickhassan

Following the bible when they say Jesus is an archangel??

“But For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.- 1st Thessalonians 4:16

you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” -Gal. 4:14

 

Scripture is very malleable for those who do not compare verse with verse and do not seek confirmation of their ideas.

Oh you mean like this?

“And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years..” – Revelations 20:1-2
and then compare that to Matthew 8:29  “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?” Jesus is described as the one who will lock them up in the abyss at the appointed time.
At Gen 3:15, Jesus is said to be the one will crush Satan’s head, Then at Rev:12:7-9 it says:
Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Whether you make the same scriptural connections as they do…they use these scriptures as their reasoning…not because some man told them.. SMH.  Maybe it is you that should seek confirmation of their ideas before making presumptuous statements.

Heb2.3

“..How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord , it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various MIRACLES and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will”

2Tim 3.5

“..holding to a form of godliness, although they have DENIED IT’S POWER”

Again…this shows God having the power to heal. Not man.  Your so confused..You speak against the religion of Man..and following the teachings of man..blah blah..but then defend that man has the power to heal.

The religion of men is powerless so it is not surprising that they deny the power of God.

Someone’s religion is also called their faith…If you believe the faith of man is powerless, than it is you that denies the power of God.  And if the religion of men is powerless, than why do you take it so seriously.

 

[UMB5]

The JW religion is irrelevant in the heavenly view so why do you take it so seriously?

I agree. Maybe you should ask Miia this question. What I take seriously is slander. I said in my previous post that It frustrates me when someone slanders any group or religion based on misconceptions and lies.

A group of people following a man has not relationship to the Body of Christ.

I believe everything that is quoted from their teachings above have scriptures so it seems to me they follow the bible. But I forgot… you believe any organized religion is actually following man…all religion is the whore… and part of Babylon….etc… I got it..

 

[UMB5]

@Davidl

Would you please share your understanding of the following scripture:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.</span>

I have seen T8 give you this scripture over and over but I don’t believe I have seen you responded or address it. I am curious to what you find this scripture to mean, and how it absolutely does not prove Jesus is not God.

 

[UMB5]

@miia

So you went to a anti-JW website to accurately educate yourself on them. Need I say more?.. probably.. Again…SCRIPTURES.. Not anti-JW websites.  What are their teachings today…the day you slander them.. I gave you their current teaching of 1914, not one from 104 years ago..104 YEARS AGO???..Every religion has changed it’s beliefs in one way or another since 104 years ago…  It seems this website has been the fuel for your persecution of them .. A website made specifically to be Anti-JW is probably not the best source to use in order to be completely informed about JW.  They of course would not give both sides and therefore you would not gain accurate knowledge.. For instance they would not tell you about the following quotes from the J.W:

“We are not for a moment denying that the publications – in particular the earlier ones – have at times published information that was speculative in nature and turned out to be mistaken. But the fact is that, for each of the dates commonly touted by critics as ‘false prophecies’ (1874, 1914, 1925, 1975), Watch Tower publications had published cautionary statements to the effect that it was by no means certain what would happen. Consider, for example, the following statements, which emphasize that the basis for the conclusions was Bible study not some message from God:  source:  http://jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html

or

“We have not the gift of prophecy” Zion Watchtower July 1883

or

“But does the Watchtower Society claim to be an  prophet, receiving information directly (and therefore perfectly) from God?

The Watchtower has said:

“We have not the gift of prophecy.” – January 1883, page 425.

“Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” – December 15, 1896, page 306.

“[the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit] does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine, The Watchtower, are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” –  May 15, 1947, page 157.

“The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” – August 15, 1950, page 263.

“The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)” – February 15, 1981, page 19.”

It just takes a little sincere unbiased research. Let go of the hate in your heart.

Okay..now back on topic? This thread is about miracles and the original post has many SCRIPTURAL backing for its content.   Did you have any scriptural backing for your view of miracles, and statements such as “JW deny the power of God”.  I think they deny the power of man to perform miracles. Not the power of God to perform miracles according to what YOU copied and pasted. I found this on their website, and whether you agree or not, it is a sound basis for their beliefs, and does not equate to denying the power of God.
“What, though, about today? Faith healers in Christendom as well as in some non-Christian religions claim to perform miraculous healings. Yet, Jesus himself sternly warned against individuals who would claim to have “performed many miracles” in his name. He would say to them: “I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:22, 23, International Standard Version) So, are the supposed miracles of modern-day faith healers really an indication of God’s approval or blessing?

Consider what the bible says about the healings performed by Jesus. By comparing that Scriptural record with the methods of faith healers today, we can readily determine whether modern-day faith healing is from God.

Jesus never used healing as a means of attracting followers or large audiences. On the contrary, he performed a number of healings out of public view. Many times he told those whom he cured to reveal the miracle to no one.—Luke 5:13, 14.

Jesus never charged money for his miracles. (Matthew 10:8) He also had an unfailing record of success. All sick ones who came to him were completely cured, and the healing did not depend on the individual’s faith. (Luke 6:19; John 5:5-9, 13) Why, Jesus even raised the dead!—Luke 7:11-17; 8:40-56; John 11:38-44.

Though he did perform those miracles, the focus of Jesus’ ministry was not on gathering converts by means of emotional sessions of miracle working. Instead, his primary work was to declare the good news of God’s Kingdom. Jesus organized his followers to become disciple makers, who would teach others about the hope of attaining perfect health under God’s Kingdom.—Matthew 28:19, 20.

NOTICE HOW EACH THOUGHT HAS SEVERAL SUPPORTING SCRIPTURE. This way you know it comes from the bible.  Would you please share your reasoning as to why you believe man has the power to miraculously heal using scriptural support?

[UMB5]

1914 was their founders unfulfilled prophecy on the return of Christ. They then said he did not return visibly or something like that if I remember correctly.

I’m not one to slander people because the bible makes it very clear that there is no place on the earth for a slanderer, so I went to their website (the same one you went to) to get it from the horses mouth and this is what they believe about 1914 –

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/1914-significant-year-bible-prophecy/

 

Basically that is when Jesus took his heavenly throne.  There is no unfulfilled prophecy. If you take the time to read the link (not saying you have to believe it), you will see that this is not a prophecy…it is a belief they have  and is actually based on scriptures, not on founders prophecy . If your going to lead a Saul like witch hunt against any group of people;  ..it may be wise to educate yourself on that group. Maybe that’s why you weren’t successful in turning your friend against them..you came with no real knowledge. BTW I am not defending the watchtower doctrine.. I’m defending scriptures.. and I get frustrated when I see someone attacking a group of people whether it be Muslims, Catholics, or scientologist using slanderous “or something like that” statements. That’s just me. Educate yourself so that your words are not slanderous…I too, like you have studied with them.. and I have friends who are J.W’s and I’m sorry but as far as I know a lot of what you are saying is not true. Just imagine…if your statement about them and 1914 is not true…imagine how many other misconceptions you may have about them.  I would really look up Psalms 140:11. BTW I was not trying to “tell you off”..in my previous post, or in this one and I apologize if it came across that way. Let’s please just stick to the bible…the scriptures…and if we are defending or refuting someone’s belief.. lets do it based on scriptures, not personal beliefs, attacks, or assumptions. I’m sure you will agree that using scriptures will be more effective.

(what i did not point out is that i can not sit at the computer long enough to address scripturally so many points in your watchtower material).

Then how do you know if it’s true or not.  Maybe it’s not…maybe it is…but because you have not research the points scripturally, (and from what you copied and pasted) they HAVE researched their material scripturally;  you do not know if its true or not…..yet you have time to sit at the computer and talk negatively about them… If you feel that strongly about them; research what they are saying and prove it wrong with scriptures if you can..otherwise anything you say is just your personal feelings.

 

[UMB5]

It sounds like you are discarding those variations that disagree with your conclusion. Some Trinitarians believe God is God’s proper name and that is one your discard.

I thought Trinitarians believed that Jesus was Gods name. God is not a proper name, it’s a title, right?  Reading the lesson, and all the comments I had to go back and relearn some things in order to understand. i.e nomintives, and predicates, etc..(don’t judge) and yes..it does seem more likely than not that it should be rendered “a god”, but I still keep going back to the reasoning that the creator and Almighty God gave me.  You simply can not be with God, and be God at the same time. I refuse to believe that God, knowing how confusing that is would fail to give me a brain that can grasp the mystery of that and then tell me that in order to gain everlasting life, I need to know who he is…yet not give me the mental ability to grasp the thought of how you can be with someone…and be that someone who you are with at the same time.

In John 18:13 the words ēn archiereus correspond to ēn theos in John 1:1 which reveals that those Trinitarians that claim God describes the qualities of the word have a case.

I have only seen Trinitarians use John 1:1 to back up that he is God himself, and not that he has Gods qualities. There is no argument there. We have some of God’s qualities. Which is how we are made in him image; he gave us the ability to love, to be just, to feel compassion..etc.  That does not make us The Almighty Creator God himself?  I think we are all in agreement that Jesus is not God himself, so debating whether it is “God’ or “a god” is basically debating grammar, and not who God is, right?

[UMB5]

Great topic!

I believe you are referring to the thread that @tigger2 started. I believe that one can claim more than one of those titles above. But not based on my own opinions or reasoning…based on scripture alone we know that one can claim more than one of those above titles.  For example at 2nd Cor 4:4 Satan is called  “the god of this world”..yet we all know that he is an angel. A fallen angel, yet still an angel.  1st Cor 8:5 talks about angels being called gods…So if we turn to scriptures and not on our own understanding we find that one can claim more than one of these titles at the same time.  Gen 6:2 “the sons of God”.. those are actually angels, right?  so here they are claiming the title of angel, and sons of God”..  When you refer to these scriptures, can you not see how one can claim more than one of the listed titles at the same time?

[UMB5]

@BD

🙂 I just wanted to know if different Muslims translate parts of the Quran to have a different meaning, and if this is why we see some of the violent groups of the Middle East that we see. But I can dig a lot of what you said there.

[UMB5]

David –

I’m just reading everyone comments, and unfortunately I do not think they are willing to actually read the post.  There really not getting it.  They aren’t even making any real rebuttals on the actual post itself. I don’t care where the information came from…if it makes sense..it makes sense..if it’s backed up with scripture than what does it matter. Why don’t they come with some scriptural support; instead of spewing out attacks and personal opinions. How come every time you post using scriptures, and reasoning….they just come back with attacks on the J.W’s.. instead of scriptural evidence.  I notice that every time someone has some knowledge of the scriptures and Miia feels like she’s backed into a corner and can’t keep up…she diverts and starts attacking J.W’s even if the person isn’t a J.W. Fine…if your a JW…and JW’s are wrong…then come with some knowledge…scriptural knowledge…not personal attacks, and opinions. All that matters is scriptures and truth…not religion whether you a J.W or a Catholic, Baptist…whatever… stop stalking the J.W’s and offer some knowledge! Its’ weird.

[UMB5]

@BD

Very interesting…and informative! Thanks for sharing. I love to learn about other religions from the horses mouth…instead of listening to what other people try to accuse a religion of believing or doing. Whether I agree with the belief or not…I can’t tell someone what’s true about their own religion. I believe in educating myself so that I do not spew out lies about any religion, or assume any misconceptions.  I totally get what your saying about Elohim, as well as the meaning of Allah. That was pretty informative.. I had no idea..Thanks for taking to time to clear up my misconception…Some Christians recognize a single name of God and some do not… Would you agree that not all Muslims believe or translate parts of the Quran the same?  Is this what separates the extremist Muslims like those in the middle east from peaceful ones? I hope you don’t mind all the questions.

[UMB5]

Hi Ed

I do believe we can speak to God through Jesus as he is our mediator. Do I believe that one can actually have a conversation with God. Literally hearing the voice of God (out loud, or in their head) no.. I believe God answers prayers, but not by literally speaking to a person.  I believe that’s one of the reason he gives us the bible. Those are his words…we learn by them, we apply them in our lives…we go to them to find answers.

[UMB5]

BD –

So Allah is a title? Not a personal name like “Jehovah”.. I guess the same as the word “God”, but in a different language?  Just trying to understand.

 

-UMB5

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