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[toby]

Quote (toby @ May 16 2012,11:21)

not one of judgment…

Bod, I made a mistake with that. There is judgment. But it's towards the unfair treatment of others. (Ok, no more posting from me! Take care Bod.)

[toby]

Ed. I had so much to say to help you. Now my mind has gone blank! Ok, I'll leave it then. Take care. Later. – Shimmer.

[toby]

Bod. I remember when I used to see thing's differently way back when I [first] used to post to you. Years ago. Since then I have been confused. I see all of these debates up here as the cause. Which is why I have locked myself out of being able to post as Karmarie or Shimmer. So here I am now still finding a way to post. But that has to stop.

Bod, Love is the most important thing, and compassion. I believe from past experiences that the true feeling of the Holy SPirit is not one of judgment… It is one of first listening to God. Then learning of God. Then feeling a huge compassion for the world. I also believe in visions and dreams. I believe in God healing us. I believe in true prayer where you feel as if God is truly there, listening to all you say. And a feeling of joy and energy which comes from it.

I also believe that traps can be set to take your mind away from the simplicity which is in Christ, I guess you would say.

Much love to you and your loved ones Bod. You take care my friend

Shimmer.

[toby]

Ed…  I have nothing further to say. Except that i was taken a long way away from what I used to believe, or how I used to see things. I'm only just returning to where I once was, thanks to things like music.

I do not believe that we, as believers, are supposed to be judging 'The World' [Be careful or you could be putting yourself in God's seat!]. Because Paul says, God is the judge of the World.

Jesus makes it clear, exactly what we are judged on at his return. It is taking care of even the LEAST of the people (A neighbour by the way, is anyone, regardless of color, age, or religion).

Who does Jesus call his 'Brethren' in the 'Sheep and the Goats'? Those who cared and did something. Not just to gain something either, but because they are truly moved from their heart.

Spiritual food – what is spiritual food? It is something which builds up and saves. Are you giving spiritual food by judging, laughing and mocking those of another religion? No!

That's all I have to say. Goodbye.

-Shimmer.

[toby]

Quote (Ed J @ May 14 2012,11:25)

Quote (toby @ May 14 2012,11:01) Ed. When Jesus returns, Ed, what are we judged on? Hi Shimmer, Your point is moot, because Jesus returned (in spirit form) on “Pentecost“. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

Whether Jesus returned on the Day of Pentecost or not is beside the point. You are missing the point. You are AVOIDING the point!

Shimmer.

[toby]

Quote (Ed J @ May 14 2012,11:35)

Pretty song. Has this singer done anything in or for Rwanda or was her last song just lip-service? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

Wow Ed. I don't know what to say.

Actually:

“Albertine” is a song by singer-songwriter Brooke Fraser, and the third single from her second studio album, Albertine. It was largely inspired by a Rwandan orphan, by the name of Albertine, whom Fraser met while there in 2005, the first of many trips “.

Wikipedia.

Why you even put that, is beyond me.

Shimmer.

[toby]

I posted that song, Ed, because it means alot to me.

Here's another one by the same singer.

Take care.
Shimmer.

[toby]

Ed.

Paul says unless I mistake Him, to judge those within the church, but not those outside the church. But rather to help them.

Paul says:

“What have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside”.

When Jesus returns, Ed, what are we judged on?

Perhaps try reading the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. And also the Good Samaritan.

-Shimmer.

[26] He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”
[27] And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”

[28] And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”

[29]But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

[30] Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
[31] Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him he passed by on the other side.
[32] So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
[33] But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was; and when he saw him, he had compassion,
[34] and went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; then he set him on his own beast and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
[35] And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, `Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.'

[36] Which of these three, do you think, proved neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?”
[37] He said, “The one who showed mercy on him.” And Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

[31] “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
[35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
[36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

[37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
[40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

[41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[toby]

Ed, I was meaning believers, all of us.

I don't want to continue this conversation, or posting. But here is some music, by NZer Brooke Fraser.

If you listen carefully, toward the end of the song (2.46 on the timeline), she looks at the camera and says 'I am responsible'. And if you have ears to hear, you will hear the Holy Spirit working through her. Just those few seconds knocks me.

Bye!

Shimmer.

[toby]

Ed. Who are you to judge another? Faith without deeds is dead. These Muslims – it is all they know. If you were born there, you would most likely be a Muslim. If you changed your religion, would you then go to the Muslims who you know – and you don't know – and tell them the things you do on here?

Faith without deeds is dead, Ed. Deeds is not judgment. Deeds is going out there and helping feed the hungry, giving water to the thirsty, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoners with love, Ed.

That is Christianity and that is the Holy Spirit. If you don't feel moved to do this, then you do not have the Holy SPirit in action.

What you teach is irrelevant to reality. Jesus is found in everyone, didn't you know? When you do it to one of the least of these my brethren, you do it to me.

Shimmer.

[toby]

Posted for Shimmer:

“Hi Kathi. That's true.

And thanks, all the best to you too. Take care.”

[toby]

Posted on behalf of Shimmer:

“Hi Kathi.

Quote

Quote “Nothing supernatural should be felt by the senses, but by the spirit. . .Counterfeits of today are generally wrought upon the soulish – or sense life – of believers who have not learnt to distinguish between soul and spirit.” Jessie Penn Lewis The Spiritual Warfare, pgs. 16-17 Healing is supernatural and is certainly felt by the senses. I would say that this statement is inaccurate from your resource. I can think of plenty of supernatural events that Jesus performed that were seen and or felt. The calming of the sea. The huge catch of fish. The physical healings. The feeding of thousands. How about Pentecost and the supernatural occurrences that were felt by the senses:

Yes, the above quotes ARE experienced with the senses. But I believe the Author is talking about something else.

Think about what is happening to these people:

Jerking movements of the body.. collapsing on the floor and laughing.. smelling unusual smells.. etc..

OK, so, we have the five senses: vision, hearing, smell, taste, and touch..

When in the spirit I have experienced joy and euphoria.
When in the spirit I have cried (with love).

When in the spirit I have experienced dreams and visions.
When in the spirit I have heard God.
When in the spirit I have seen God.

But none of these were experienced by my senses.
The body, and the spirit are two different things, do you agree, Kathi?

(This will have to be my last post, for a while. (It's a long story!).”

[toby]

Hi Shimmer.
You said:

Quote

(Eventually MAN puts Himslef (sic) in the temple of God (The temple is the body/the self) and makes – who?  Himself, out to be God.

Yes, some people desire there to be Human Gods so that they can call themself one.

It is clear there are ones that are CALLED Gods as meaning 'having power and authority over others' – BUT it is also clear that these are not in the same category as Almighty God.

There can be no such thing as a GOD as in being like Jehovah as 'There can only be ONE who holds all power and authority'. This ONE is 'THE GOD' – all others are 'so-called Gods' who OBTAIN their power and authority from a source.

(Where do stone Gods get their power – certainly not from themself – but what mankind has infused in them).

I think some people have some alterior motive for desiring 'Gods' other than the true ONE God – Jehovah.

A god must be worshipped – is there anyone here who would (or who already has) taken up worshipping these (so-called Gods) in Heaven and on Earth against the strict warning by the 'Jealous God', Jehovah?

Best to understand and have fear! Do not call another person or thing 'God' with reverence else you belittle the Almighty God – Jehovah.

[toby]

Hi Mikeboll,

You said,

Quote

Quote But he is referred to as 'A Man'. He is never referred to as being a human being after he ascended.  Read the OP of the thread.

So now a man is not a human being?

Well, at least you didn't disagree with the rest of what I said – well done!

(p.s. I think you will find that a Man is of Mankind, a Soul, a Human Being – can you prove otherwise – please show how.)

[toby]

Hi Mike.

The thread comment has raised an interesting point:

Is Jesus a Man in Heaven?

Well, it is said that he is a Spirit and therefore not a Man.

But he is referred to as 'A Man'.

How can this be?

Well, Perhaps he is a SPIRIT in Spirit Realm – but – when he comes into the physical realm he becomes a Man?

Now what is the difference between a Man and a Spirit?

Yes…a BODY…!!!

Jesus materialises his glorious imperishable body with his Spirit in it and becomes a Man.

No, Mikeboll, the body is not 'destroyed' but dematerialised when he enters Heaven so he becomes a Spirit again. This is the same way he is able to enter a locked room. The Spiritual Body can be materialised anywhere it's owner desires through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Consider that the body of someone who is cremated will be restored (not a NEW BODY) in a Glorious imperishable incorruptible state – from what? The ashes were scattered to the four winds so how is the body restored by the SPIRIT?

[toby]

Hi Kerwin.
You said:

Quote

Toby, Was the body, Adam and Eve had before the fall, natural or spiritual?

The Scriptures is not clear on this matter.
The certain things we know is that Adam and Eve were sinless and destined to live forever in their created state.

By eating from the forbidden tree they forfeited their everlasting life.
However, it was not the actual fruit that somehow caused the body to decay but the disobedience. But note that it only applied to ADAM – not eve. If Adam had not eaten of the fruit sin would not have existed because Eve would have been sinless because of Adams sinlessness.

The Spiritual Body is a different type of body which I don't think is the same as the type Adam had so if it is an only choice between the two then I would say that it was a SINLESS NATURAL BODY.

The Scriptures says 'First the Natural, then the Spiritual' so there can't be three types.

The Natural Body was designed for the complete Earthbound existence of Mankind in which the Spirit was permanently in the body.

The Spiritual Body allows the Spirit to leave the body without it decaying through sustainance by the Holy Spirit.

[toby]

Hi EDJ,

I would agree that 'Entity' is a good word to use: 'Entity that is Jehovah, God Almighty'. Exodus 4:14-16:

'Then the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses and he said, “Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well; and behold, he is coming out to meet you, and when he sees you he will be glad in his heart.
And you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth; and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and will teach you what you shall do.
He shall speak for you to the people; and he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.'

Yes, Ex 7:1 repeats the 'AS GOD' concerning Moses but this time to Pharoah. Notice that verse 2 shows that Jehovah still speaks to Moses and Moses speaks to Aaron and Aaron speaks to Pharoah.

'And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet'.

Also, I forgot to mention: Why did God Almighty give Moses his name: “Thus you shall say unto the children of Israel, 'I AM' has sent me to you.”

The children of Israel knew the names of many 'so-called Gods' from their encounters with pagan tribes. If Moses had just said 'God has sent me they would not know which real or so-called 'God' Moses was talking about so Jehovah gave them a name to distinguish himself from the pagan so-called 'gods'.

Furthermore, Jehovah stresses continually who he is over those other so-called God by saying 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob' (e.g. Ex 3:6, 15, 16) and others say 'God of the Hebrews' (Ex 3:18, 5:1).

Please read this in context with what I said previously – that I am not saying the Egyptian or other pagan gods were real entity Gods but “human devised or created in wood or stone, so-called Gods.”

There is only one true uncreated non-human devised God and that is Jehovah God Almighty.

(EDJ, sorry about the 'Check it yourself' – I meant to say, 'I thought people discussing this topic would have known the verse', as it is quite prominent in the story of Moses and Pharoah' but you are right to ask for the verse.)

EDJ,
You say:

Quote

What concerns me is what Scripture says. What you mean MUST line up with Scripture! As long as you say a god, what you say doesn't. ye are even my witnesses. Is there 'a God beside me? yea, there is 'no God'; I know not any. (Isa 44:8)

Did you yourself not say:

Quote

Hi Toby Once again I disagree. “I have made thee 'a god' to Pharaoh” (Ex 7:1)

(P.s. I think it should say 'AS God' not 'a God'. Linguistically it would not read right to say '…Make you a God to Pharoah'. It's a small semantic point, though)

James 2:19. 'You say there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe – and tremble'.

However, I think you may be taking things out of context as Jehovah God saying there is none beside(s) him did not stop him saying that Moses would be 'AS GOD' to others, did it? This is not saying that Moses would be 'God Beside Him', is it?

The power and authority was still given by Jehovah to Moses and was taken from him later – as I pointed out earlier.

Jesus Christ is a 'type of Moses' in that Jehovah carried out his work through Jesus Christ just as he did through Moses. I find it hard to believe that Jesus Christ is not ruling 'AS God' at this time bringing the world into its new world order after which he will 'Hand the Kingdom back to his God, Jehovah Almighty God.

[toby]

Hi Mike.
You said:

Quote

Gene, Is 9:6 says Jesus will be called a mighty god.  John 1:1, 1:14, 1:18, and 20:28 are all fulfillments of this prophecy.  But let me move on by having you compare these two scriptures: Job 1:6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. Psalm 82:1 God stands in the assembly of gods; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment. In the latter scripture, who are these gods that God assembles with and passes judgment upon? To me it refers to God assembling with angels, as is described in the former scripture I posted.  But who do YOU think these gods are/were?

Mikeboll, the two verses are not linked.

The second is referring to earthly Judges who judge unfairly against the deprived and vulnerable – as the rest of the verses testify.

Angels do not Judge!

Can you quote what BARNES says about this second verse (Psalm 82:1-7)

[toby]

Hi EDJ,

Let me clarify: I use the word 'Person' not in the sense of a Human Being (A Spirit in a Body) but just to represent 'HIM to whom I am referring'.

I do know the problem of saying 'Person' when referring to that which is Spirit but there is no other term that I am aware of to use.

Additionally, it could be credited that 'Person' is used to refer to someone with 'PERSONality' and you cannot deny that Jehovah has 'Personality' (Angels do not in the same context and I would not call an Angel a 'Person'.)

Concerning Moses, Scriptures says 'Therefore, thou shalt be AS GOD unto Aaron' concerning bringing the word of God to the Hebrews in slavery. Moses had a speech impediment and felt he could not speak with authority to the Hebrews or Pharoah so God said he would tell Moses what to say and Moses should tell Aaron and Aaron would speak. So then, to Aaron, it was as if Moses was 'God himself'. Check it yourself –

Please note that the exact wording does not make Moses 'a God' but only 'AS GOD' which is not the same thing but I use it as a near reference for examples usage.

And as for Jesus being a ruler in place of God: have you not read: 'He must rule until all Rulership and Authority is brought under his feet'?

It is Christ, under the Authority and in the Power (The Holy Spirit) of Jehovah, who is bringing in the new world order. This is why Jesus is said to be a Mighty God – please note the indefinite 'a' and. It the definite 'The'.
I do not mean at any time to say that Christ will be 'The One True God' but only 'a God ruling in place of THE One True God'.
Does Scriptures not demonstrate this relationship – are there not examples given by Jesus of the Steward put in charge of his masters house or Joseph being put in place of Pharoah or Naman being put in place of King Ahasereus?

None of them nor anyone reading would assume any of them were 'The King', 'The Master', 'The Pharaoh'.

[toby]

Ah, so back to the thread topic!

What can we conclude from Scriptures:

1) The Spiritual Body is the body raised from the dead by the power from Heaven (The Holy Spirit)

2) it is 'reBORN' of the Spirit as Immortal, Imperishable, Glorious and empowered as said by Apostle Paul: 'Flesh conceives flesh, Spirit conceives Spirit' and Jesus says: 'One must be reBorn of the Spirit'

3) Jesus was raised from the dead in his Spiritual Body and proved it by being able to enter into a locked room with that body. It is for no simpler reason that one Disciple was in doubt and Jesus proved he was not a Spirit. The raised body was not a Spirit Body but a Spiritual Body

4) Scriptures then states that those of the elect will be raised from the dead in similar Spiritual Bodies at the last trumpet. Those of the elect who are not dead at the last trumpet will be changed 'in the twinkling of an eye'. Then they will rise up in the air and meet with Christ who will have come back 'with the clouds'

5) Flesh and Blood (The Body – not the state of sinfulness) cannot enter Heaven as it is still material matter and Heaven is the realm of the Spirit (immaterial, invisible and formless) so it must be assumed that the Spirit alone enters Heaven. Speculation is all that is left surrounding what of the Spiritual Body left by the Spirit?

Seeing that the Spirit can leave the Natural Body (do we agree this?)

Then we also agree that the Spirit can leave the Spiritual Body.

However, when the Spirit leaves the Natural Body, the Natural Body starts to decay due to being Mortal and Perishable.

But the Spiritual Body is Immortal and Imperishable therefore when the Spirit leaves it, it does not decay. Can we agree this, too?

If, as is said by others that the Spiritual Body is a 'so called Spirit Body' then it would have to be agreed that this 'Spirit Body' is made of 'Flesh (and Bone)' as Jesus showed (PROVED) to his Disciples. Who would dare agree such absurdity?

So let us rule out this notion of a 'Spirit Body' that is nowhere mentioned in any Scriptural rendering nor by any credible authority on Scriptures.

Scriptures clearly and unequivocally states that the risen from the dead Body will be Spiritual – and so it is. The Natural Body is sinful and subject to death and decay and is driven by Carnel desires.

The reBORN Body (Please note: It is NOT a NEW BODY but a RENEWED body – please understand the difference) is reborn not of the sinful nature of man (Flesh begets flesh) but of the Holy Spirit (Spirit begets Spirit) and is driven by the Spirit (Of the Spirit : Spiritual).

Thus it is said 'they shall be LIKE the Angels of Heaven who are neither given nor taken in marriage'. This means the Spiritual Bodied person will not procreate – it DOES NOT MEAN that they will BE ANGELS but LIKE Angels in nature.

So then one asks, 'What is the point of having a Spiritual Body that is of no use in Heaven?'.

This is not hard to answer: Jesus was raised up from the dead in a Spiritual body and then taken up to Heaven (in Spirit only).

But he will come back to Earth at the last trumpet. WHY?

Could not Jesus do what he had to do FROM HEAVEN without 'coming back' to the physical world. Well, yes and no. Yes, but what would that prove? And No, because it is to Man in the Flesh that he wishes to address and bring to righetousness in the new age therefore he needs to be 'As Man' in physical form.

It is without doubt that there will be an Earth, a Paradise Earth ruled by Christ Jesus and the elect and Angels will no longer come into the world nor will they be be part if the rulership in Heaven as their purpose is over.

And, just as Angels Spirits materialised in the physical world, so then will those elect in Heaven materialise in their Human Form in the physical world as snd when they desire – as will Jesus Christ.

Angels cannot be recognised one from another in their materialise form. But the elite will materialise in recognisable form of their old bodies renewed as fresh as a child with all ailments and disablements done away with.

The short man will still be short and the tall man tall, the stout man still stout and the thin man still thin – these are not ailments. But the one eyed and lamed and the disfigured will be healed or renewed as whole as exemplified by the miracle healings of Christ else for what reasons were these miracles?

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