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[shimmer]

Oh Ed, no, I still can't – well, I can – it takes ages to load – but I hardly ever do.

See you Ed.

[shimmer]

Hi Ed. I can't see your post, it says you posted. Might show up when I do this one!

OK, I'm away now.

[shimmer]

His Way Church, Auckland, New Zealand.

[shimmer]

Ed, no this is not acted.

[shimmer]

Jesus said that many would come in his name, who were false. And that false prophets would arise showing great signs and wonders, and that they could decieve even the elect, if it was possible (Matthew 24). So we need to be careful – as Jesus said.

And Paul said that in the last days, people would give heed to misleading spirits, and doctrines of demons, “Who with false appearance would mislead and speak lies” – and to beware.

I will quote a freind..

“We are all influenced by forces outside of our own self (Spirit). You know also that those Spirits can tell truth – or – tell lies – OR – a mixture of both. This latter is the MOST DANGEROUS because where does the target person decide truth begins and ends and the lie begins and end – confusion? – too right.
Take Satan and Eve. Satan knew that God did not mean 'instant death in the flesh' by eating the fruit but 'death of the flesh back to the dust by decay due to sin and ultimate destruction of the Spirit'. He DECEIVED Eve and when Adam saw that Eve was not hurt, he too ate of the fruit”.

[shimmer]

Quote (shimmer @ April 20 2012,11:57)

I will tell you a little bit about my past to do with this. When I was an out of control teenager, I would often go to church with my parents (One was a Catholic and one was a Baptist) and I would sometimes crack up laughing for no known reason. It embarrased me that I would do this and it made me avoid going to church! Anything would trigger me. My fathers out of tune singing voice or my freind sitting behind me. This was not of God because as I said, I was an out of control teenager.

Hi Kathi.

Ok, that was an exageration. It has only happened to me twice, as a rebellious teenager, and I have since been in churches, including baptisim, and it didn't happen again.  

But anyway, further to what I said, and this is all I have to say on the matter:

Pauls says in 2 The.2:3 not to be deceived by ANY MEANS, for the day will not come untill the rebellion and the 'lawless man' is revealed and will sit in the Temple of God – which is the Body – (“Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit that dwells within you”) as if a god – and will opose and exalt Himself over everything which is called God.

WHAT puts itself in the temple of God (The Body) – but a Spirit??
(Which oposses and exalts itself over all that is called God).

God is SPIRIT

This is a Spiritual thing!

Paul says “Do you not remember, that when I was with you I told you these things?  And now you know what has prevented him from being revealed in his time.  For the mystery of iniquity is already at work, until he who now is the obstacle is taken out of the way“.

What is taken out of the way?
Truth is removed (The Spirit of Truth)..

Paul says:

“The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness”.

Jesus said that He will come Like a thief.

When people say peace and security, sudden destruction will come upon them in one day.  

Well, are not these people all over the world in a trance and believing that they are happy and in peace and security?! (Laughter, Peace, and “Happiness!”)

What is there that we can do for these people?  This is happening FAST!!

People by the thousands in meetings all over the world are falling under it's spell, it is strong and it is POWERFUL!!

Kundulini is from Hinduism.  

Quote:

“Hinduism says there’s no such thing as a sinner, the only sin is to call yourself a sinner, this is Hinduism” – THE MAN OF SIN!

Just be careful Kathi. Take care.

[shimmer]

Hi Kathi.

Uncontrollable laughing and/or crying. Unexplained hand and arm motions. Animal sounds, grunts, and roars.

I will tell you a little bit about my past to do with this. When I was an out of control teenager, I would often go to church with my parents (One was a Catholic and one was a Baptist) and I would sometimes crack up laughing for no known reason. It embarrased me that I would do this and it made me avoid going to church! Anything would trigger me. My fathers out of tune singing voice or my freind sitting behind me. This was not of God because as I said, I was an out of control teenager.

I have been baptised. I have also since been unchurched. I have felt God… been led by God, I have learnt, I have changed, and I have felt Gods presence and healing powers. The presense and healing powers both healed me, led me, and strengthened me. Some times in my life I would have crumbled, but i did not because God was there. And I was given little signs along the way (The verse when needed, the words when needed, the visions too).

Once I was sitting at my table having a conversation with some Jehovahs Witness freinds. I told them of a few experiences such as healing. They said they don't believe in that, and that even Satan can conterfeit healings, etc. I decided there and then I would not be a Jehavahs Witness, and I was always really careful not to judge anything I had seen to do with healings etc, even on TV.

The only thing I did not nessesarily agree with is the speaking in tongues. I understand through my reading of scripture, that when they did speak in tongues, there was an interpreter there. It was not in the scripture the same as what you see today – people all together speaking in strange tongues without an interpreter – where is that in scripture – and what was the original intentions of their being able to speak in tongues but to spread the word of God throughout the world. (Of course, today, we have translaters and even on the Internet you only need to click onto 'Google translate' or similar.

Being 'slain in the Spirit' what is that? Where is it in the Scriptures. I don't know too much about it but i grew up seeing it. It has never happened to me. What I have felt is God in my heart, bringing me to tears, with love for God or others, a healing heart and calming of the mind – and something which lasted for days. But as it was there i continued on my days as normal, albeit calmer.

I have heard someone speak about his 'kundalini' and Toronto happening which has become world wide. And the person had a dream or vision, and she was shown what she calls the 'false bliss'. She noticed that while under this 'false bliss' she felt vulnerable to any deception, and that, she said, was the scariest part. She has felt the same as me in regards to God and she knows also, that Gods healing powers and spirit brings clarity and alertness (Jesus said to stay awake so you are not deceived).

I have since witnessed this Kundalini in a believer, and I can tell you, this is deceptive.

I have much more to say on this in regards to some of your points…when I have some more time though.

Thanks Kathi.

[shimmer]

More notes, further quoted from the same site:

http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/kundalini.htm

(Quote):

“Do any of these “manifestations” sound vaguely familiar? They match almost exactly with the experiences of people in Toronto, Pensacola, Bromptom England, etc. I have video footage of a woman in Pensacola standing trying to give her testimony with a panicked look on her face calling out to her husband “honey where are we from.” Her mind was so BLOWN and CONFUSED that she did not (1) know her own name and (2) did not know where she lived! Yet this is God! Our God is not the Author of CONFUSION, nor does He confuse His people. If anything the Holy Spirit gives utmost CLARITY. Yet MENTAL CONFUSION and LACK OF CONCENTRATION are however 2 signs of ones “serpent power” being released.

World-wide reports of the UNCONTROLLABLE LAUGHING and/or CRYING have circulated. This too is a sign of the serpent power being manifested. . .yet there is no Biblical support for such manifestations at all.

Unexplained hand and arm motions (I've personally seen this in Toronto) are viewed as God playing/working with one of His saints. Yet it is a classic example of the serpent power in operation. Hindus may see these as spontaneous yogic gestures or postures ( I have footage of a man in Boston performing yogic postures). . .Yet again this is seen as the Holy Spirit. REALLY? Animals sounds, grunts, roars also fall within awakened Kundalini”.

I just received an e-mail which says:

Brother in Christ,
I want to make sure that you know about something that happened in Pensacola in April. You wrote in your article that sweet aromas will fill churches next. It happened in Pensacola in one evening as Joyner was preaching. He said a blue “cloud of glory” filled the sanctuary as they did their demonic manifestations and then a “very sweet smell filled the whole place”. Maybe this
happened before you wrote the article, but I remember that you said this would be the next thing
happening and, well, it happened. Just thought you might want to know that you predicted right. I guess we have to see what's next. In Him, D**** P****
Smelling the scent of incense (frankensense, sandalwood, etc.) or flowers is also an indication of Kundalini Awakening.

My former guru Muktananda Paramahansa always spoke of seeing “chiti” or “consciousness” all around him as BLUE SPARKS. How many more parallels do Charismatic Christians need to be convinced that what they are experiencing is DEMONIC?

Another irrefutable parallel is that the charismatic manifestations can all be traced to Rodney-Howard Browne. From the impartation of his hands all this has come! Kundalini Awakening comes from a lineage of guru's and is imparted by them to their disciples, who give it to their disciples, etc. . .

ONE THING IS UNDENIABLE: There is NO Biblical support for the manifestations, however there is a ONE-TO-ONE correspondence between “Holy Laughter” and the occult manifestations.

It has been many many years since I sat before an altar with a picture of Muktananda Paramahansa and a statue of a coiled cobra snake, eating prassad (food blessed by the presence of the guru). I am saddened to see multitudes of sincere believers practicing Kundalini yoga. Receiving impartation from their own local/national/international gurus, whether they be called Pastor Arnott, Benny Hinn, Rodney Browne, etc.

The fruit is the same. The manifestations are the same. It comes via a human being (not sovereignly by God). It comes after much singing repetitious choruses, which does bring one into an alpha state of consciousness (I know these states well, I used to spend hours in a sensory deprivation tank) and thus shutting down the rational mind. Thus the chela/student/disciple/believer is open to receiving the impartation from the guru/pastor/prophet/apostle. . .and lo-and-behold they do.

Are these “moves” from God? No they are not. From all I have read, seen, experienced as a former mystic and as a Charismaniac I can say on the basis of Scripture that what is occurring is a cleaver counterfeit – something mimicking the genuine so as to deceive those who would normally accept the genuine. I pray for the deliverance of those leaders who are ignorantly leading God's people astray and I pray for the multitudes of hungry believers who for some reason or another find simple faith in the Scriptures not enough to satisfy their souls.

Words from a Minister During the Revival in Wales
Jessie-Penn Lewis

“The counterfeit of the Presence of God is mainly felt upon the body, and by the physical senses, in conscious “fire,” “thrills,” etc. The counterfeit of the “Presence” in the atmosphere is felt by the senses of the body, as “breath,” “wind,” etc., whilst the mind is passive or inactive. The person affected by this counterfeit will be moved almost automatically to actions he would not perform of his own will, and with all his faculties in operation. He may not even remember what he has done under the “power” of this “presence.” Jessie-Penn Lewis War On the Saints, page. 153

“But another man had the same impulse, and fell down groaning and roaring, beating the floor with his hands and feet, and the demon entered into him as the angel of light, and got him to think that his conduct was of the Holy Ghost, and it became a regular habit in the meetings he attended. . .” War on the Saints pg. 150

“Nothing supernatural should be felt by the senses, but by the spirit. . .Counterfeits of today are generally wrought upon the soulish – or sense life – of believers who have not learnt to distinguish between soul and spirit.” Jessie Penn Lewis The Spiritual Warfare, pgs. 16-17

SELAH”

(UnQuote).

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Remember that in the first videos, the YouTube writeup says:

“Leaders and movements involved:
prophetic, apostolic, todd bentley, lakeland revival, rick joyner, morningstar, toronto blessing, new mystics, john crowder, ihop, mike bickle, patricia king, false revival, the river, bob jones, john paul jackson, sid roth, chuck pierce, bill johnson, randy clark, peter wagner, dutch sheets, pentecostal, charismatic.“

This is happening worldwide.
I wonder how many more churches this is happening in, and I wonder also, how fast this is spreading.

I am very very careful as to what I judge. I believe in healing and I do not doubt ANYthing I see to do with this – usually. But when I saw these videos, I just KNEW that something here is just not right.

[shimmer]

Just some notes here on this.

THE STRIKING SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE “TORONTO BLESSING”
AND THE SERPENT POWER OF KUNDALINI

The following is taken from here:

http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/kundalini.htm

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-..-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.

(Quote):

Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from a Kundalini Page on the web (caps are my addition):

“Usually the awakening of Kundalini was a process which only occurred after years of spiritual practice and meditation. Yet INCREASINGLY, the Kundalini experience is being reported among people who are not undertaking spiritual practices. Since 1993, when Shared Transformation, an American journal for connecting spiritual awakeners first began, it has been contacted by OVER 700 people in the throes of SPONTANEOUS KUNDALINI AROUSAL (Collie & Kree, 1995). These INCREASED reports of spontaneous Kundalini awakening at this time of PLANETARY UPHEAVAL may be INDICATIVE OF A LARGER PURPOSE AS WORK, the beginning of a planetary wake up call. . .”

Since reading this article I have sent off several e-mails to various “gurus” and New Age sites describing the activity at Toronto and Pensacola and asking their opinions of them and did they think these could be spontaneous Kundalini Awakenings in these folks. I will inform you of their responses when I get them.

The above article tells me that what used to take years…now is being “granted” immediately to those not even following the yogic path. These occult folks view this as indicative of a LARGER PURPOSE AT WORK. What and/or whose purpose?

The only answer is the larger purpose is that of Satan and his hosts of seducing and deceiving spirits.

My brothers and sisters there is a GLOBAL DEMONIC DECEPTION being perpetrated on 100,000's of charismatic Christians. Almost all the Charismatic leaders endorse these manifestations as a true move of the Holy Spirit.

Quote more from Kunulini sites:

KUNDALINI SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS

by El Collie

Many individuals whose Kundalini has been unexpectedly unleashed DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING, and the prevailing social ignorance about this multidimensional transformative process makes it hard to find medical or alternative health practitioners or spiritual advisors who recognize the symptoms, particularly when they are strongly physical. Many people know that the risen Kundalini flings open gates to all sorts of mystical, paranormal and magical vistas but few realize it can also dramatically impact the body. A large percentage of Shared Transformation subscribers have reported long bouts of strange illness as well as radical mental, emotional, interpersonal, psychic, spiritual and lifestyle changes. Over and again we hear stories of frustrating, sometimes desperate visits to doctors, healers, counselors, etc. who neither understood nor were able to help with the myriad pains and problems catalyzed by raging Kundalini.

The following are common manifestations of the risen Kundalini:

• Muscle twitches, cramps or spasms.
• Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body
• Itching, vibrating, prickling, tingling, stinging or crawling sensations
• Intense heat or cold
• Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation, rest or sleep): jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one's body in unusual ways
• Alterations in eating and sleeping patterns
• Episodes of extreme hyperactivity or, conversely, overwhelming fatigue
• Intensified or diminished sexual desires
• Headaches, pressures within the skull
• Racing heartbeat, pains in the chest
• Digestive system problems
• Numbness or pain in the limbs (particularly the left foot and leg)
• Pains and blockages anywhere; often in the back and neck
• Emotional outbursts; rapid mood shifts; seemingly unprovoked or excessive episodes of grief, fear, rage, depression
• Spontaneous vocalizations (including laughing and weeping) — are as unintentional and uncontrollable as hiccoughs
• Hearing an inner sound or sounds, classically described as a flute, drum, waterfall, birds singing, bees buzzing but which may also sound like roaring, whooshing, or thunderous noises or like ringing in the ears.
• Mental confusion; difficulty concentrating
• Altered states of consciousness: heightened awareness; spontaneous trance states; mystical experiences (if the individual's prior belief system is too threatened by these, they can lead to bouts of psychosis or self-grandiosity)
• Heat, strange activity, and/or blissful sensations in the head, particularly in the crown area.
• Ecstasy and intervals of tremendous joy, love, peace and compassion
• Psychic experiences: extrasensory perception; out-of-body experiences; pastlife memories; astral travel; direct awareness of auras and chakras; contact with spirit guides through inner voices, dreams or visions; healing powers
• Increased creativity: new interests in self-expression and spiritual communication through music, art, poetry, etc.
• Intensified understanding and sensitivity: insight into one's own essence; deeper understanding of spiritual truths; exquisite awareness of one's environment (including “vibes” from others)
• Enlightenment experiences: direct Knowing of a more expansive reality; transcendent awareness

Some people have told us they find the concept of “Kundalini” foreign and prefer to simply call this their “awakening,” which is fine with us. But for most who contact us, the Kundalini explanation provides an important framework with which to accept and work with their experiences. We each have a unique way of interpreting, honoring and describing our spiritual wisdom. I do not believe there is only one right way to know or express the truth. Far more important, I believe, is to have an open heart and to be faithful to our own path, wherever it may lead. We have also been asked why we do not put more emphasis on union with the Divine and God-realization, which are very much central to spiritual awakening. Since everyone experiences and interprets their mystical experiences differently and very personally, to make sure no one will feel excluded, we just speak of “awakening consciousness” or “transcendent states” on the ST Web pages. In our Shared Transformation newsletter, individuals with variant religious beliefs are welcome to (and DO) tell about their experiences of this sort. Some speak of God, Christ, Goddess, the Holy One, Spirit, or simply a magnificent Whole in which we all partake. Also, for some people, profound spiritual realizations do not occur until months or years after the other signs and symptoms. Individuals who are having experiences of an obvious spiritual nature are usually more able to integrate and benefit from the process, regardless of how they may label it. But those who experience what seems to be illness or weird psychic phenomena often are very alarmed until they understand that they are not sick or crazy. And even the enlightening and beautiful experiences can be so powerful that people doubt their sanity. This is why the information and validation we offer in the ST newsletters and the opportunity to exchange insights with others through Shared Transformation's Friends Online and the Kundalini Mailing List is so valuable.

A more detailed list of Kundalini manifestations can be found in Shared Transformation newsletter, Issue #5.”

(Unquote).

[shimmer]

Hi Terrarica and Kerwin, thanks for your post replies.

[shimmer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2012,16:12)

Hi Colter, They did not understand and neither do you apparently– for the same reason. You do not yet have spiritual eyes.

Nick, nobody here has spiritual eyes.  Speaking from the heart is sadly missed as people have become of the flesh.

I have spent so long on this forum – and greatfully I still have what I believe.

I believe the time is being cut short, for the sake of the elect.  I believe the world is in a really sad spiritual deception.  I believe that the man of sin has taken his seat in the temple of God (which is the body) and that everything has now become flesh.

I believe that people spend all of their time on forums because they have no-one else to speak their heart to regarding God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but that time draws nigh and people grow tired.

I believe that Jesus is the son of God, but God is the Father of all.  One is naturally higher than the other,  and that is God.  Jesus is next in line, and then comes everyone else.

Then is the creation of God – wow – could we as man (woman) ever do what God has done?  No way.

We each have our own idea it seems on what God is , weather Jesus pre-existed, etc, but in the end, all that really matters is how we have lived our life…  And if we listen to God – and if we turned to God.

God either knows us, or He doesn't.

i know God is my Father and I love God.

And Jesus is my help and my friend and I love Jesus.

And in the end, that's all that really matters.

“Return to me saith the LORD and I will return to You”.

My prayer is that everyone here can stand in the day which we are in, and that many remain in the end, because the end is drawing near.

Listening to God and not the self… And obeying God is the key.

God bless take care, all.

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,15:38)

Quote (shimmer @ April 09 2012,20:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,15:17) ………………….. it goes to show you that there are INDEED (as Paul says) many gods and many lords, both IN HEAVEN, and on earth. Who are some of these gods who are IN HEAVEN, Kerwin? Mike, they are man made gods. The mind has made them up. That's what it's meaning. Shimmer, It was Paul himself who said there are indeed MANY gods, both IN HEAVEN and on earth. Do you believe Satan is a real being, Shimmer?

Hi Mike thanks.

Yes Satan is the God of this world because people have made all which Satan represents as a god (love of life, love of money, etc).

(Eventually MAN puts Himslef in the temple of God (The temple is the body/the self) and makes – who?  Himself, out to be God.

So, yes, Satan is a God – anything can be a God.  Man can be a God.  But there is only one true God, and that I believe is Jehovah.

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,15:17)

………………….. it goes to show you that there are INDEED (as Paul says) many gods and many lords, both IN HEAVEN, and on earth. Who are some of these gods who are IN HEAVEN, Kerwin?

Mike, they are man made gods. The mind has made them up. That's what it's meaning.

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2012,13:52)

Quote (toby @ April 09 2012,18:18) I am not saying the Egyptian or other pagan gods were real entity Gods but “human devised or created in wood or stone, so-called Gods.” How about Satan?  How about the angels who were called gods?  How about the Egyptian gods who were able to match the signs Moses did up to a point?  Does a “human devised god” have the power to turn a staff into a snake, or produce frogs out of thin air? And how did God “punish” those gods if they were in fact human devised gods of wood or stone? Exodus 12:12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. Numbers 33:4 who were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had struck down among them; for the LORD had brought judgment on their gods. How is a piece of wood “judged” by Jehovah?

Mike, a god is anything which replaces Jehovah God.

Heaven Net could be your god, money, your home, television could be.  Anything which takes you away from God.  There is only one true God and that is Jehovah God, the Father of Jesus.  Though people or things (or imagined gods) can be called gods.

(Captial 'G' or small 'g' has nothing to do with it).

In Islam, there were so many gods which people had made, that Mohammad came along and narrowed it down to the 'One True God' which He called 'Allah' which in Arabic means 'The God'. And when in Mecca, Mohammad and His men went to a Temple which was full of statues which represented all of the others gods and destroyed all of them.  Apparently He left the statue of Jesus and Mary.  

Quote Wikipedia:

Muhammad destroyed the symbols of paganism in Mecca and then sent his followers out to destroy all of the remaining pagan temples throughout Eastern Arabia.

In 630, Muhammad marched on Mecca with an enormous force, said to number more than ten thousand men. With minimal casualties, Muhammad took control of Mecca………………………….. Most Meccans converted to Islam and Muhammad subsequently had destroyed all the statues of Arabian gods in and around the Kaaba. According to reports collected by Ibn Ishaq and al-Azraqi, Muhammad personally spared paintings or frescos of Mary and Jesus, but other traditions suggest that all pictures were erased.

—————————————

Mohammad did not like Images for this reason.

Wikipedia:

In line with the hadith prohibition against creating images of sentient living beings, which is particularly strictly observed with respect to God and the Prophet, Islamic religious art is focused on the word.  Muslims generally avoid depictions of Muhammad, and mosques are decorated with calligraphy and Quranic inscriptions or geometrical designs, not images or sculptures.  Today, the interdiction against images of Muhammad – designed to prevent worship of Muhammad, rather than God – is much more strictly observed in Sunni Islam (85%–90% of Muslims).

[shimmer]

Quote (toby @ April 10 2012,00:10)

It is Christ, under the Authority and in the Power (The Holy Spirit) of Jehovah, who is bringing in the new world order.

My question is off topic, but how will you know that this 'New World Order' has come?  That question goes to anyone else too.

[shimmer]

Quote (shimmer @ April 06 2012,15:42)

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 06 2012,05:59) Quote (shimmer @ April 05 2012,22:16) Also, you never told me what your view is on the book of Hebrews.  Do you class it as the Apostle Pauls writings? As far as I know Paul wrote it. Bod, think again.  Read Hebrews and then some of Pauls and tell me if you think it is the same Writer.  Do you also think the Author of the Bible is the same Author of the Quran?

Bod,

If Paul is not the writer of Hebrews, then that means that because Muslims don't accept any of Pauls Epistles as true due to Muslims view of Paul being a false Apostle, then they also cannot accept the 'Book of Hebrews' even though it is not writen by Paul as valid Scripture due to the nature of what is writen – a witness to the crucifixion.

They also don't accept what Jesus himself said, so Bod, what is actually left of the entire New Testament, then?

I will add that I admire your faith and all Muslims faith.

Get back to the Bible Bod. Trust it. The Bible is a witness and it was said….

[Matthew.24:14] 'And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony [witness] to all nations; and then the end will come'.

[shimmer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 06 2012,05:59)

Quote (shimmer @ April 05 2012,22:16) Also, you never told me what your view is on the book of Hebrews.  Do you class it as the Apostle Pauls writings? As far as I know Paul wrote it.

Bod, think again. Read Hebrews and then some of Pauls and tell me if you think it is the same Author.  Do you also think the Author of the Bible is the same Author of the Quran?

[shimmer]

Hi Bod.  

Did you know that the eastern orthodox view of atonement is different than the western view (even though they are Trinitarians).

From wikipedia:

At some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice: to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as the “fall of man” and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. When Orthodox Christians refer to Fallen Nature they believe that human nature is open to acts of evil, and not that the humaneness joins with evil. They reject the Augustinian position that the descendants of Adam and Eve are actually guilty of their sin. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind's ultimate dilemma. The solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. Orthodox Christians believe that Christ Jesus was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God's participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of Hell (Orthodox reject the idea that Christ died to give God “satisfaction”, as taught by Anselm, or as a punitive substitute as taught by the Reformers). The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve. This process, to Orthodox Christians, is what is meant by “salvation”. The ultimate goal is theosis – an even closer union with God and closer likeness to God than existed in the Garden of Eden.

Also, you never told me what your view is on the book of Hebrews. Do you class it as the Apostle Pauls writings?

[shimmer]

Ok thanks Nick, just asking:) I wrote something the other night and was wondering where it fitted in but I won't post it here at the moment.

God bless.

[shimmer]

Hi Nick. Would you say that the Holy Spirit was eternal, and Jesus was a man with his own spirit (like us all) and the Holy Spirit was also in him, and that when Jesus died, his own spirit went to God who gave it (as happens to all when they die) and then the Holy Spirit which was in Jesus' body on Earth raised him from the dead, then his body was eventually taken up to heaven and was presented before God, and God gave him back his (Jesus')own spirit, and the Holy Spiirit was sent to Earth to be with man, while Jesus remains in heaven? (Romans 8:11)

[Author]

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