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[selah]

The initial post for this thread (A Coincidence Or A Creation) was about God's Language to Number The beast.

440 plus posts later (other than Georg's one example of Latin gematria and Ed J's comment that the Quran is 666) not one comment by others as to the language to number the beast has been posted.

Nor has anyone responded as to whether they believe that the numeric examples I presented is a coincidence or a creation?

What should I conclude from this?  No interest or no knowledge?

                    THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE “PAIR”

It is said that the number of man is … 6
We are told that the number of the beast is … 666
Some Christians believe that the European EU has a connection to a “Revived Roman Empire”, and that the beast of Revelation is in some way associated with this gigantic conglomerate.  Some believe it will lead us to a one world government.

Within this European parliament, seat number 666 is vacant … a man sits in seat 665 and 667, but no man in 666.
In curiosity, I scrolled down the list and stopped at seat 66.  This seat is held by the Vatican, and represents the pope.

The word “curse” is used 66 times in the OT.  Using simple English gematria  A=1 … Z=26  curse sums at:
CURSE = 66
SODOM = 66

The word  “Charles” means “man” …  Charlemagne.  We are told that the beast-man will appear “like a lamb.

CHARLES = 66                      John Paul II's Polish name is the English equivalent of … Charles.
LIKE A LAMB = 66

According to a Messianic Jewish website (Worldwide Witness), John Paul II sums at 666 using Hebrew gematria.
YWhNn PWLWs SNY = 666

Another site states that John Paul II sums at 666 in Latin.
IOANES PAVLVS SECVNDO = 666

Is it a coincidence that  “ROMAN” numbers sum at … IVXLCD = 666

VATIC = 55
JUDAS = 55
SATAN = 55
WICKED = 55                

I believe God has given us a specific sign in His Word, and that it is “two, twin, twice or double”.
Babylon is fallen, is fallen.  Rev 14:8
Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen.  Rev 18:2

Alas, alas that great city Babylon … Rev 18:10
Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet … Rev 18:16

ALAS ALAS = 66

Reward her even as she rewarded you, and DOUBLE unto her DOUBLE, according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her DOUBLE.  Rev 18:6

What has this two or twice got to do with Rome?  Rome is the world center for the study of “twins”.
This is because of the myth of the “twins” Romulus and Remus, suckled by a she-wolf.  Rome was named after Romulus.
The Church of Rome is a WOLF in sheep's clothing … yet she appears “like a lamb”.
The Vatican is one of the smallest sovereign nations in the world, yet her “religious” POWER and wealth is immense.

TWIN = 66        
MYTH = 66
POWER = 77       If you believe what has been presented so far, to be a “coincidence” I suggest you read no further.

The first pope in the history of the Church Of Peter to take a “double” name was John Paul … he reigned  33 days and mysteriously died, some say murdered.  But wonders of wonders, John Paul came back to “life” in the form of John Paul II

JOHN PAUL II = 99

The narrow path leads to Jesus, but all wide roads lead to Rome.
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee … Rev 18:23

That great religious empire of the beast is the “woman”  the great harlot church.

WOMAN = 66
EMPIRE = 66

Is there something “bad” about a double or twin number?  No, God merely has used it as a sign or “marker” for us to decipher.

MARKER = 66

The word Roman “Catholic” means “universal”.  I believe it signifies the Church of Rome as being  the one (uni) church of the world.

UNI = 44   VERSAL = 77
ANTI = 44   CHRIST = 77      

Thomas was “a dioscuri” … a twin.       A DIOSCURI= 99

Some Hebrew sources believe Cain was a twin.  They note that the intent of the Hebrew word  is “she continued to bear”, no mention of Adam “knowing” Eve again.   I believe this is the “mark” God placed upon Cain … an identical twin and “appeared” like Abel.

APPEARED = 66
IDENTICAL = 77
TWIN = 66

CAIN AND ABLE = 66
MARK ON CAIN = 99
FUGITIVE = 99                     Cain became a fugitive.

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers nor “the desire of women” or regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all, but in his estate (Vatican State) shall he honour ALA MAHOZIM … god of forces.  

ALA MAHOZIM = 99
THE FORCES = 99

Each pope is considered to be the “IMAGE” and successor of Peter.  He sits in the chair of Peter reigning over the Church of Peter.  He is their “second Peter”, their “papal Peter”.   As I noted previously, the word  “vatic or Vatican” means “prophet”.

II PETER = 66
A FALSE VATIC = 99
THE SECOND PETER = 99      In our Bible,  II Peter is about false prophets.  God will send them strong delusion to believe a lie … pseudos.

PSEUDOS = 99
DELUSION = 99

Other than Satan himself, who was the only person that Jesus ever called “Satan”?  Check out John 21
“Petrus” is the Greek name for Peter.  Jesus knew that (eventually) “Peter” would represent the false Church of Rome.  This I believe is the meaning behind verse 18 of John 21.   This is also the chapter where Jesus questions Peter three times … do you love me?

Verily, verily (another double) I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst theyself and walkest whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.  This spake he (Jesus) signifying by what death he  (Peter) should glorify God.  When God destroys the Church of Rome, God will be glorified!  Even some Roman Catholic theologians believe this has reference to their church when it shall be “old”.  This is why some Roman Catholic theologians believe their church will become apostate in the last days.

Rev 13:18 speaks about the “counting” of the number of the beast.  Note that in this strange chapter of John 21 regarding the counting of the 153 fish, it was Peter that did the “counting” even though Jesus did not specify anyone to do this.  The Book of John has been called the book of signs … this is definitely one of those signs.  Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter.  Why?

There is a connection between the word “peter” (small rock or pebble) and “to count or calculate”.  Rev 13:18 here is wisdom … 666.
Small pebbles were used to “count”.  This is the connection between “Peter” and the counting of the beast, and the “counting” of the 153 fish by Peter.   Petrus = Peter.  Peter was “naked”.  John 21:7

PETRUS = 99
NAKED PETER = 99
SMALL PEBBLE = 99

Even though I said earlier that “double numbers” are not necessarily bad, but more as a sign from God for us to decipher, I must admit that most of what I have presented does appear to be “bad”, so here are some other “twin” examples:

Genesis 25:24 records the birth of the twins Jacob-Esau for Isaac son of Abraham.

JACOB ESAU = 77
ABRAHAM = 44
ISAAC = 33

Genesis 38:27 records the twins through … Judah

JUDAH = 44

Aram means twin or two in Hebrew

Aram = 33

Words with a “twin” meaning:

SET = 44
TWA = 44         (old English)
PAIR = 44
DUBLE = 44     (old English)      

TWIN = 66
OCTAVE = 66

PARLEY = 77
EMULATE = 77
PARALLEL = 77
IDENTICAL = 77

The special letter (used only once in the Bible) to signify 666 is called … “vau”.

VAU = 44

If you have read my previous posts regarding “simple English gematria”, you will recall the following examples:
SIMPLE = 74
ENGLISH = 74
GEMATRIA = 74

JESUS = 74
JEWISH = 74
MESSIAH = 74

CROSS = 74
Y'SHUA = 74
GOSPEL = 74
THE KEY = 74

MENE MENE = 74         Daniel's writing on the wall … mene mene means “number number” … another “double”

What is the purpose of this evidence?  To demonstrate that the UNSTATED language in Rev 13:18 about the numbering of the beast, is to be English in its most simple numeric form … for it is our world common language of these last days of prophetic fulfillment.

ccc

Thank you for your time brothers and sisters.
I planted a few seeds and presented some evidence.
My job here is now complete.  May you all continue to seek His Truth.

[selah]

Hi T,

Re read my post.  This particular “bow” in the Greek text is in regard to “cloth”.

It is definitely NOT a weapon, so what you suggest is not applicable here.

Karmarie,

Regarding Rev 6:2, were you saying that the white horse is the Holy Spirit? … or were you saying it is the rider that is the Holy Spirit?

Either way, what would “cloth” have to do with the Holy Spirit?
And the crown?  Scripture speaks about crowns, but never associated with the Holy Spirit that I am aware of.

“IF” the white horse represents the purity of Christianity and the pure gospel, could not the rider be the religion of Roman Catholicism and its perverted gospel that rides upon the true gospel before heresies crept into the church?

Ie. this rider is spreading a counterfeit gospel, and there is no doubt that Romanism went forth conquering.  Is not Roman Catholicism the largest “Christian” church in the world?

Have you heard the phrase “riding upon another”?
Later in Revelation, it speaks about the “woman”, which definitely represents the false church … riding on another does it not?

Some things to think upon.

PS

Regarding “white”, Jesus Himself said unto the religious Jews of His day because of their corrupted teachings:

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees!  You hypocrites!  You are like WHITE washed graves that look beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.  Matt 23:27

Through their “traditions”, several of Romes “beautiful” churches place the bones of their “saints” beneath the altar.

[selah]

Scripture indicates that as the day of the Lord draweth neigh, there will emerge upon the world scene, a final and specific person who will be the one opposed to, or in place of Christ whose name or titile will sum at 666.

One can not prove which language God designed to accomplish this “numbering of the beast”, for HE DID NOT TELL US..  However, if one considers the number-letter values of Hebrew and Greek, those languages can hardly be considered as adequate systems for a conclusive numeric identification.

The exceptionally high letter values of Hebrew and Greek (1-400 and 1-800) results in a simple name such as “John Doe” to sum at close to 2000!
Using Greek, James = 833  Peter = 755  Simon = 1100.

The high Hebrew values for only three letters … M R T … (the television character “Mr T”) sum at 640.
When short names such as Tom Dick or Harry can sum in the range of 600  700 or higher, it hardly makes for a useful or reliable confirmation or identification.
Scripture reveals the identity of the beast to observing students of prophecy (watchmen on the wall).  The number 666 confirms that identification to those so inclined to calculate the number of the beast.

A negative feature of Hebrew and Greek (because of their high numeric values) cause these languages to be a hindrance rather than a help as a meaningful confirmation.

Critics frequently remark that it is easy to juggle names and titles to sum at 666.  I challenge those critics to take the names of past or present religious or world leaders that indicate a BIBLICAL CONNECTION.  Let them juggle names and authentic titles to their hearts content to produce one that sums at 666 … using simple English gematria  A=1 … Z=26.

As a student of prophecy, in over 30 years of examining legitimate biblically identified possible suspects, only one summed at that figure … it is that difficult using simple English.

A Messianic website (Wordwide Witness) stated that John Paul II's name in Hebrew summed at 666 … YWhNn PWLWs SNY = 666
Another website stated that John Paul II's name in Latin summed at 666

There have been many names (Hitler, Gorbachev, Kissinger, and a host of others, including the present governor of California!!)  that prophecy speculators “make” their suspect sum at 666 by using some ingenious letter number combinations. One is A=6  B=12  C=18 and another was A=101  B= 102  C = 103.  

Not that this is conclusive, but I am not aware of any legitimate suspect summing at 666 in TWO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.
I now add a third language to this evidence, using the most difficult language/number system of all to arrive at that sum.
Simple English gematria wherein   A=1 … Z=26.

This simple numbering feature of our last days world common English language/alphabet greatly increases the factor of difficulty (statistics of probability) thus eliminating the ease of attaining that sum through short or chance names.  

WHY DIDN'T GOD STATE THE LANGUAGE TO BE USED?   BECAUSE IT WAS NOT IN EXISTENCE IN THE DAY OF JOHN OF PATMOS.

You will recall my earlier examples of using this system with the following: … Jesus, Jewish, Messiah, Parables, Gospel,  Y'shua etc..

JESUS = 74
JEWISH = 74
MESSIAH = 74

PARABLES = 74
GOSPEL = 74
Y'SHUA = 74                 Do you think it mere coincidence that “simple English gematria” would also sum at 74?

SIMPLE = 74
ENGLISH = 74
GEMATRIA = 74

Where were our watchmen on the wall when the numbered beast and his followers with the mark on their right hand and forehead arrived?
Were they looking only to the past such as Nero … or to the never ending claims of the futurists?  As Isaac Newton stated, the religious Jews did not recognize when the Messiah arrived … nor did our religious leaders recognize the anti messiah when he arrived.

THE IMAGE THAT SPEAKS AND HAS LIFE

A puff of white smoke rose from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel and the world of Roman Catholicism rejoiced.  The Church of Peter was no longer without its “rock”.

The Vatican had successfully caused an image to be made of the previous “head that died”.  The previous head of Romanism (Albino Luciani) had reigned for 33 days and died as  Pope John Paul.

The wisp of white smoke indicated that by the required 66.6 % of the 111 Cardinals present had voted to select its “image of Peter”, its Papal Peter.  Shortly after, Cardinal Pericle Felici announced:

“Habemus Papen” … We have a pope … “Qui sibi nomen imposuit JOANNES PAULUS SECUNDUS.”

He has chosen the name JOHN PAUL SECOND.

On October 16, 1978 history was made and prophecy fulfilled. At 6:44 pm

KAROL CARDINAL WOJTYLA ARCHBISHOP OF KRAKOW
became
POPE JOHN PAUL THE SECOND

          KAROL  =   57
   CARDINAL   =   62
     WOJTYLA  =  106
ARCHBISHOP =   99
               OF  =   21
      KRAKOW  =  79

            POPE  =   52
           JOHN   =   47
           PAUL   =   50
             THE    =  33
     SECOND    =  60

                        666

The first John Paul died by a mortal wound (some say murdered).
The second John Paul came to “life” and the whole world wondered after the beast … the PRIMATE of Rome.

When John Paul II toured the USA, former President Carter greeted him with “God blessed America by sending you to us.”
Billy Graham stated  “He's the most respected religious leader in the world today.”

In 1970 (eight years prior to JP II)  Robert Gromacki's comments on the expected anti-messiah reflected the views held by many students and scholars of Bible prophecy:

“This coming world leader will doubtless have a dynamic, magnetic personality.  He will have that rare ability to move television and radio audiences plus live crowds with his appearance, decorum and eloquent pulpit oratory … There will be something different about him … he will follow an international policy of peace overtures … The word peace will be a weapon in his hands.”

Daniel told us that this little horn would not stay at home.  John Paul II was the most travelled pope in the history of the Roman Church.
Daniel also told us that he would “have arms at his side”.  Dan 11:31.

I originally thought this meant arms as in weapons, but on closer examination of this Hebrew word, it means arms “outstretched”.  That was his trademark sign.
He would raise his arms in the shape of a horizontal bow encouraging the adulation for his followers and the world.

When this great charismatic personage burst upon the world scene he did not appear as an antichrist, but as a man whom the world adored.  Religious and political leaders extoled his virtues.  Those who recognized him were not believed, for “Christianity” would shun those who would call such a “saintly” person an antichrist or the beast of Revelation.

He drew monstrous crowds wherever he went, and not only Roman Catholics.  He also spearheaded the fall of Communism in Poland and elsewhere.

Again, where were our watchmen on the wall?  Were they asleep or looking in the wrong direction … were they only looking to the “future”?
How true the words … if possible even the very elect would be deceived.

ccc

[selah]

THE RIDER, HIS BOW AND HIS CROWN            

Georg … regarding the rider on the first white horse with bow and crown that went forth conquering, and to conquer.  Rev 6:2.

I agree with your assessment that the rider on the first white horse had (and has) a direct association with promoting a false gospel.  Romanism definitely does not teach unmerited grace. And yes, the papacy had (and has) power over kings that possess military strength, and the papacy did sponsor the crusades, and you are right about him crowning himself..
There is no doubt that Romanism (particularly during the “Dark Ages”) went forth conquering and to conquer.

As I had indicated in an earlier post, during the last days, “peace” is one of the papal weapons of deception according to Daniel.

Even though all these things you have said about the papacy are correct, every author that I have read (including yourself) are in error to associate the “bow” in this particular passage with violence or a “weapon”.  The following comments are from my unpublished booklet:

Those who look for a military type person as being “the” antichrist err in reasoning that this “bow” is a weapon.

The New Testament never uses this word to mean a weapon. Of it's five New Testament occurrences, four of them mean to bend or to “bow down”.  That was pope John Paul II's distinguishing trademark.  Upon his arrival at the host country, he would “bow” to the ground and kiss it.

The fifth and final occurrence of this word is found in the verse under discussion Rev 6:2  the rider with bow and crown.  Oddly enough, its use in this particular verse means neither “weapon” … nor to “bow down”.

This particular “bow” is from the Greek form meaning “cloth”.  The word “crown” is from the Greek “stepho” meaning … to twine or wreathe.  This rider is in some way associated with “cloth that is wreathed”.

That is the perfect description for the pope's “Triple Tiara” crown.  It is unlike any of the solid gold or silver crowns of Europe, as it is weaved of “cloth of gold.”
New Educator Encyclopaedia Vol 9  pg 3575.

According to Vatican dogma, the pope's three tiered crown signifies his authority in three realms:

on earth
in heaven
in hell

I believe the following passage is the connection to Vatican City's  three tiered crown.

And the great city was divided into THREE PARTS and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.  Rev 16:19.  I believe that some reading this may literally witness God's total destruction of that great city … Vatican City … Mystery Babylon

Regarding the rider on the first “white horse”.
Consider the vision that John of Patmos was given.  If he was shown a vision of the huge crowds and pomp and ceremony of pope John Paul's arrival in the United States, bowing to the ground and kissing it, how might he describe the converted (always white) Ford Bronco that carried the pope on his tour of the US … called the “popemobile”?
Might John describe it as  … seeing a rider on a “white horse”?

John Paul II was one of the most charismatic and influential leaders of this century.  The man who spearheaded the downfall of Communism … and all the world followed after the beast.   Beast = primate =  Primate of Rome.

Where were our prophecy experts … our “watchmen on the wall” when this event came to pass?  
Preterists look to the past … futurists look to the future … who was looking to the present?  
Only historicists saw and understood prophecy being fulfilled.

ccc

[selah]

Hi Karmarie,

It seems that there are many divergent opinions as to the nature of the rider on the first white horse.  I have a list of a dozen or more scholars that differ, yet they both offer some convincing evidence.

But you are right, most believe this rider to be opposed to Christ.

Regarding the link you provided.  I would not totally agree that white always indicates purity.

That writer may have overlooked the point that the beast personage appears “like a lamb” … ie a counterfeit.

I think most would agree that 99% of lambs are white.
I will post my evidence that this specific rider is opposed to Christ … and I agree with most of what Georg said about the subject.

[selah]

Hi Karmarie,

No one doubts that the rider on the second white horse is Jesus, that is why my question only involved the first one.

In that you believe the first one is the Holy Spirit, what leads you to that conclusion?  Is it something you have read in a commentary, or, do you think that white always indicates purity, or is it more of a gut feeling of yours?

PS  Have you read any of Guinness' book at Historicism Last Days yet?

[selah]

Karmarie … I was not going to post because I thought if I couldn't convince you of the identification of the false church through the pope being God on earth and the considerable amount of other evidence I had presented, I figured I was wasting our time.

I am very glad that you warned your parents several times.  Not much more you can do other then pray for them to receive His truth.

Baptised in a Pentecostal church … so was I.
I am not Pentecostal or charismatic, but that was my first association with Christianity.

Georg … you mentioned the Jews and Hitler.

I read an interesting article recently.  
It was about a salesman that worked for a German company that supplied the gas (Zyklon B) used to exterminate the Jews..

The company was IG Farben Chemical Company.
The salesman was Karol Wojtyla … who later became pope John Paul II

Georg … you asked my positon on the 70 weeks and I responded.

My question to you is in regard to the Rider on the first white horse with crown and bow.  Rev 6:2.
Do you believe this rider has an association with peace, or the gospel, or a military connection?

[selah]

” ….. The most consistent and frequent promoter of peace and human rights for the last two decades has been Pope John Paul II …. “

Karmarie,

I was not going to do any further posting, but I found it most interesting that the very person you are defending because of his constant plea for peace, is the very person my research shows to be the beast described in Daniel and Revelation … John Paul II.

As a student of prophecy, I am surprised that you did not know that peace is one of the primary identifying features of the 666 False Prophet and his followers with the mark on their right hand and forehead.

Daniel tells us that by peace, he destroys many.  Along with his lying wonders and “miracles”, peace is one of his most effective weapons of deception.

If you are wrong, and the Church of Rome is Mystery Babylon as we believe, how would you feel if you are saved but your parents go to hell without any warning?

You say that you love your parents, but there is such a thing as tough love.  Do you not think it wise to at least warn them that half of Christianity believes the Church of Rome is the great harlot church, and the pope is the one described in II Thessalonians 2?

… the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  (you will recall my evidence about the pope being “God on earth”)

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan and with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie …….

Rome claims untold thousands of “miracles” and lying wonders such as “weeping statues of Mary”, and claims the power to turn wine into the literal blood of Jesus, and the transporting of Mary's house in Nazareth to Italy … surely you dont believe these things, or do you?

Being that your parents are Roman Catholic, I would assume that at your baptism, the priest, with his right hand, placed the mark (charagma) upon your forehead, so perhaps you have the inclination to believe these miraculous claims of the Church of Rome … but I hope not.

[selah]

Yes T … you are right, many, many Protestant churches have prostituted themselves and many have aligned themselves with the Church Of Rome through the (apostate) World Council Of Churches.

But when I read Revelation's description, it seems clear that it is speaking about a specific one, at a specific location (7 hills) with a specific mark on its right hand and forehead.  I am not aware of any Protestant ones that fit this detailed description.

Perhaps High Anglican churches may have some of the things you mentioned, but I have been to many many Bible believing Protestant churches and have not seen any of them dressed in purple and scarlet, glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls.

Regarding the title you mentioned on her forehead, “Mystery” … I believe that was a particular sign on the papal mitre at one time, and I have come across other writings associating the Church of Rome with “mystery”.  I will see if I can find my old notes.

I am glad you mentioned the gold, precious stones, and pearls the harlot was wearing.  The Pope's Tiara is composed of:

gold
3 crowns
252 pearls
229 diamonds
32 rubies
19 emeralds
11 sapphires

[selah]

Hi Karmarie,

I am glad you did not ask about “antichrist” or “the antichrist”, but you were specific … as there is a first beast, a second beast, and it is the second one that becomes the false prophet.  

We are talking about the False Prophet being the Vatican and it's hierarchy, and this same organization being the harlot church.  As you may recall, the meaning of “vatic or vatican” is prophet or prophecy, and this in itself should raise a red flag for students of the book of Revelation.

You said that “anyone claiming to be “God on earth” would be an impostor, and that “those are some pretty serious claims for the Pope of His Church to be making!  I will have to look into that first though …. ”

If the head of the Church of Rome is an impostor (as the evidence indicates) that should answer your question as to what church is the harlot church described in Rev 18.  That church is described as being MYSTERY, Babylon … not literal Babylon.

You said you would “look into” those claims.  I was wondering how you propose to do that?

The purpose of the Jesuit Society is to protect the pope against all accusations.  If you have access to the historical statements provided, you will see that they are true, but if you go to Jesuit or Roman Catholic sources, they will likely put their spin on it and say something like … well, yes they did say that, but what they really meant was ……….

I suggest you take your time (perhaps a couple of weeks) looking into these things.

You may wish to take advantage of the free reading at http://www.Historicism Last days.  Click on “bookshelf” and check out “The Approaching End Of The Age” by Grattan Guinness.  Scroll to “Foretold And Fulfilled” chapters 1 and 2, “Babylon and the Beast” and “The Man of Sin”.

Two other Protestant websites of interest would be http://www.dr-fnlee.org (an Australian website).  Also key in “The Pope And The Papacy” by John MacArthur.  A contemporary teacher.

I believe “Fifty Years In The Church Of Rome” by Charles Chiniquy is available on the internet for free reading. Chiniquy is a former Roman Catholic priest.  He has quite a story to tell, particularly about the intrigue and workings of the Jesuits.

If after a couple of weeks searching out these things, if you conclude to disbelieve those papal statements, then we are simply wasting our time.

However, if you are convinced of the claims and that the head of the Church of Rome is an impostor, and therefore the head of the harlot church, then we could continue into examining the dead image that speaks.  Take your time.

PS  Perhaps other readers here, where aware of those papal claims, but so far, you may be the only one that was surprised.

[selah]

Karmarie,

We agreed that if a pope died and an image was made of that dead one, and it could speak, and men followed it that would convince you that The Church of Rome is the great harlot church described in Revelation.

I also asked if one claimed to be “God on Earth”, that would also convince you.  I appreciated your no nonsense reply.  You said: “One thing I know, of someone claimed to be Jesus or God on earth I wouldn't believe it for a second, no man on earth will be Jesus or God, it will be an impostor.”

Yes, I am sure that would be convincing for you.  
I hope to prove that both of those situation exist now. I would like to stay on topic and not get side tracked by questions like, the evil in the world today, the sex scandals in the Roman Church, the restrainer in Thessalonians or what might happen next in prophecy. Hope that is ok with you.

I have my work cut out for me searching through my old notes, but here is a sampling of the evidence.

If or when you are convinced, I hope you will make every effort to get your parents out of that religious worldwide money machine and to stop making it's identifying sign with the right hand.

Being in Ireland, you said that they are afraid of Protestants.  Very understandable in that situation.  There are usually small “house churches” in most communities, and it is likely that there are house churches of “former RC's” that would welcome your parents into the safety of their believers group

                  The Popes (literally) claim to be “GOD ON EARTH”

All powers, titles, glory and honour bestowed upon any one pope belongs to all popes.  All these claims have been incessantly and universally urged all down the centuries by the popes of Rome, and are still advanced, as boldly as ever, in official decretals, bulls, extravagants, decisions of canonists, sentences of judges, books, catechisms, sermons, and treatises of all kings.  There is no mistaking what they amount to.

The pope claims Divine inspiration, his words are to be received as the words of God; no laws can bind him, he is supreme over all, the very Scriptures derived their authority from him.

“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty” Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.”  Catholic National July 1895

“The Pope is the Supreme Judge of the law of the land … He is the viceregent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords”.  La Civilta Cattolica, March 18  1871.

“The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one.  We declare, assert, define and pronounce: To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation … That which was spoken of Christ 'thou hast subdued all things under His feet', may well seem verified in me … I have the authority of the King of kings.

I am all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do, what therefore, can you make of me but God.”  Pope Boniface VIII,  Unam Sanctam

By using this tittle Vicar of God, that is to say he is in place of God, for that is the meaning of vicar or vicarious.

“We define that the Holy Apostolic See (Vatican) and the Roman Pontiff hold the primacy over the whole world.”  A decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, “The Most Holy Councils.”  col. 1167.

“Indeed, it is not to much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are man gods.”  The dignity Of The Priesthood by Liquori pg 36.

There are many more damning statements that could be provided, but these should be sufficient to convince anyone, in particular, born again believers, that they are claiming that their Pope is God on earth.  I will close for now, with one more example:

Pope Nicholas I declared:  “The appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man.”  Labb IX dist.5 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer.

I don't have my old notes with me, but another famous documented one is … “Our Lord God The Pope”.

Karmarie … I hope you are true to your word.

I may search out some of the statements, and then move on to prove that every pope except one is the image of the one that dies by a mortal wound, and yet it can speak.  I hope you are not a hyper-literalist like the following futurist professor of Dallas Theological Seminary, who said:

“Now I don't profess to be able to explain to you how this false prophet can make this image of the beast speak, whether he does it electronically, or by ventriloquism or by some Satanic marvel, but I know that here is something so awesome that when the world sees this dead and lifeless image begin to give commands, they fall down before it as though it had come from Almighty God Himself.”  Prof J. Dwight Pentecost.

So much for the hyper-literal sensationalism of some “prophecy teachers” of today.

ccc

[selah]

Hi Karmarie,

Thanks for clearing up that part about two thirds following a speaking image of a dead pope etc..  “Saint” Cyril had me going for awhile, as I couldn't find anything in the Bible like what he claimed.

THE CHURCH OF ROME CLAIMS THAT IT NEVER CHANGES

The true Christianity of Jesus and His early chruches was fomulated and complete during the year shortly after His death and resurrection … 33-70 AD.  The main true Christian church was established in Jerusalem … not Rome.

If there ever was a head of the church other than Jesus himself, it was James … not Peter.  There is no positive evidence to authenticate the claim that Peter was even in Rome, let alone being the Bishop of Rome!

The religion called “Roman Catholicism” is a mixture of Christian beliefs and pagan practices.  It was Contantine's way of pleasing all the people of Rome when he made Roman Catholicism the state religion.

NB.  The following so called “Christian” practices were introduced several hundred years AFTER the true church and teachings of Jesus had been established.  There were no “Protestants” or “Catholics” in the early church. Although Jesus could have been considered a “protestant' for He protested against the establish church of His day, just as Martin Luther protested against the established church of his day.

Jesus' criticism of the ruling hierarchy of His day was that they were teaching the “traditions” and rulings of men (priests and rabbis) and that is exactly what the Church Of Rome practices … the traditions and rulings of men, not scripture.

Has the Church Of Rome changed the teachings of the early church which was formulated in 33-70 AD?

300 AD   Making the “sign of the cross”.
375 AD   Veneration of angels, dead saints and use of images.
431 AD   Beginning of the exaltation of Mary.
593 AD   The doctrine of “purgatory”.
600 AD   Latin used in prayer and worship.
709 AD   Kissing the popes foot.
850 AD   “Holy water”. and baptism of bells in 965AD.
998 AD   Fasting on Fridays and during Lent.
1079 AD   Celibacy of the priesthood decreed.
1090 AD   The “Rosary” invented by “Peter the Hermit”.
1184 AD   The INQUISITION instituted by the Council of Verona.
1190 AD   The sale of “indulgences”.
1215 AD   “Transubstantiation” proclaimed by pope Innocent III.
1215AD    Auricular confession o a priest instead of to God instituted.
1220 AD   Adoration of the wafer decreed.
1229 AD   Bible forbidden to laymen and placed on the “Index of Forbidden Books”.
1414 AD   The cup (wine) for priest and forbidden for laymen though instituted by Jesus Himself.
1439 AD   Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma.
1545 AD   “Tradition” declared as equal authority with the Bible.
1546 AD   Eleven Apocryphal books added to the 66 books of the Bible.
1854 AD   “Immaculate Conception of Mary proclaimed.  Jesus's conception was immaculate, not Mary's.
1870 AD   INFALLIBILITY of popes proclaimed by Vatican Council.
1950 AD   The “Assumption” of Mary proclaimed … her bodily ascension into heaven at her death.
1965 AD   Mary proclaimed “Mother Of The Church”.

Each of the above doctrines or practices can be pin-pointed to the exact or approximate date at which it became a part of the system of Rome's version of 'Christianity” … and no single one of them became a part of the system until centuries AFTER Jesus!

I think this explains why we were told that heresies would creep into the church after the preaching of the true gospel.

AND THE CHURCH OF ROME NEVER CHANGES? …  IT IS A LIAR.

[selah]

The video that Ed J presented is by the Adventists, so that would jib with what you remember.

[selah]

Yes Ed … very good presentation by Steve Wohlberg.  I have his book.

I would consider it a “mini miracle” if all three, Ed J, George and Selah all agreed on this one interpretation!

[selah]

Hi karmarie,

“Wow Selah, two thirds of mankind = 66.6, could it mean anything?”

No, I do not believe there is any significance in two thirds = 66.6

except when pope John Paul II was elected by the required vote of 66.6% of the 111 cardinals present that day.

two thirds of 111 = 74
Jesus was “numbered” with the transgressors.

Jesus = 74
Lucifer = 74

[selah]

What is my understanding of the 70 weeks?

It is finished.  There is no “gap” and Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ … not some antichrist.

I believe what Christians have always believed about it, “prior” to John Darby's “spin”, and his futuristic scenario.

As I noted to Karmarie, you can read Mauro's book free at http://www.historicism last days.  “The Seventy Weeks of Daniel”.  It is not the easiest reading, but it is thorough.

I prefer to stay on one subject at a time in each thread.  I hope to resolve what Karmarie and I are discussing, but if there is still interest in the thread that already exists about Daniel 9:27, I may post a few comments there after she and I try to come to a conclusion here.

[selah]

Hi Karmarie… it is said that you are what you read.

It appears that a lot of your reading is based upon your interest in what Roman Catholic writers from the past had to say.

Do you think they would be critical of their own church if heresies had crept into it?

I would suggest that you try to balance your reading and examine what Protestant writers from the past (and present) have to say also.

I am going to recommend two Protestant sites, one that provides free reading of some of the great writers of the Reformation.  I guess you could call them “early church fathers” of Protestantism, but I don't think they would appreciate that designation.

The first one is http://www.historicism last days.  You will find such writers as Gratton Guinness, E.B. Elliott, Isaac Newton, Joseph Mede, likely John Calvin and a host of other respected writers and theologians.  A little heavy reading, but one of my favourites is “The Seventy Weeks of Daniel” by Philip Mauro.

The other site is more contemporary.  It is “The Pope And The Papacy” by John McArthur.  www.biblebb.com/files/mac/90-291.htm

What about that question about a pope (not claiming to be Jesus) but claiming to be God on earth?  Might that be convincing?

[selah]

That is true T, that is true.

[selah]

Hi Karmarie,

If that is an example of early church writings, I would be hesitant about other of their claims.

There are scripture passages that talk about “one third”  Rev 8,9 Satan and his one third angels and another passage in Rev 12:4, but none that connects one third or two thirds to an image.

I think some of those “saints” may have had vivid imaginations.

And, nope, never heard of a pope claiming to be Jesus … …yet.
How about if one claimed to be God on earth, would that be convincing?

[selah]

Hi Karmarie … two thirds … like 66.6

Could you give me your scripture passage that connects two thirds of mankind with worshiping the image?  Just spent half and hour going through all 22 chapters but must have missed it.

[Author]

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