For what it is worth, the 2nd century Fathers as they are known believed that Jesus existed as the son of God before coming to this world, (as far as I know).They seem to acknowledge that he pre-existed as the son, but are also careful to point out that God is the greatest and Most High.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 18 2010,18:03)Hi Oxy,Don't confuse the Son in the flesh with the firstborn Son that created the world.  One was the root of David, the other the offspring of David.In my experience, some here deny that there is any difference between root and offspring and even some Trinitarians do too, (which is weird). The Trinity…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 14 2010,02:09)Quote (t8 @ July 13 2010,05:38)Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,14:57)Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,14:41)Hi MB,Being in the form of God is not being God is it?Not THE God Nick.But God is spirit, man is not.  I take it to mean, “being in a spirit form, he emptied himself and became in a man's…[Read more]

Jesus is coming back to a Church without spot and blemish.But many are still deceived by things like the Trinity Doctrine.KJ, if you can preach the false Trinity Doctrine, then you can also preach other false messages and you need to move toward being without spot and blemish.You don't give us confidence in your words considering the array of…[Read more]

Nobody posted after you, or replied to the post, so I don't have a problem with it.In the end, it is better to get Mike's honest opinion than a statement of convenience. Remember the truth or lie is on trial, not people.

It is against the rules to delete or change posts substantially if people have posted after you, because it ruins the time that others spend replying to them and makes conversations hard to follow. It is better to post later why you don't like one of your own posts.At this stage, I can't tell if it was deleted or not though. So I can't make a…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,03:00)T8………No one is saying we do not have a WILL (IN) Us we are saying that Will Is (NOT) a “FREE” Will, again you are confusing God allowing us Liberty to a point to exercise our Wills as Us having a “FREE” Will in us. that is the only point where are taking about here brother.If we are not free to…[Read more]

Maybe, but atheists also have a lot at stake. Future punishment is something atheists might fear if they think there is any possibility that YHWH is God. Some wicked people even believe in God, but think judgement is so far off, it doesn't matter right now.Believers have salvation to lose and atheists have judgement waiting for them as unbelievers…[Read more]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2010,06:51)Need More?, now it you turn to Show me One scriptural that say we all Have a “FREE” WILL (IN) us.Why don't you show me one scripture that says that we have a big toe?Jesus said, “not my will but your will”.At least you understand that Jesus was like us. So it is not hard to see that we have a will and God…[Read more]

I see that people are still posting in this topic of their own free will.

I agree that truth is truth no matter how pretty or ugly it maybe and it is us who must accept it.But belief in Evolution means that you have no eternal value and that has consequences which are not intended if indeed it is not a true doctrine.Belief in God makes people more responsible, but the abuse here is that you can teach people that God…[Read more]

Stu, what was first, something/someone, or nothing?

“Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt”?i.e.,”Better not to make clueless judgements and statements (like there is no God) and be thought a fool than to make them and remove all doubt”.

Stu. You are officially clueless. Your rants are also clueless. It is official. Until you can provide your clues, you remain clueless.http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clueless

Quote (Stu @ July 14 2010,23:07)t8!  Long time no see!I've answered most of this bollocks already t8.I have never read a reasonable response to what you consider to be the cause of everything. Are you in the someone, nothing, or something camp?Secondly, if you do not hold to any because you do not know, then you are unqualified to say that anyone…[Read more]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 10 2010,12:15)I used to own a car that was a (moderately) complex machine and there was little that was predictable about when it would decide to break down, and which of its failings would be exposed on that occasion. We are discussing the most complex machine we know of, the human brain, and like weather forecasting there are…[Read more]

Quote (Stu @ July 14 2010,11:28)Ed I don't base anything on faithStuartYet to believe in anything being the cause of the universe requires some kind of faith. So that means that if you do not believe in the possible causes (something, someone, nothing) then you don't have a foundation on which to base your atheism on.No foundation to any structure…[Read more]

Try this link:http://www.boston.com/news….derComm

I think in order to read other characters, each persons browser has to be set to read Hebrew characters. You could try inserting Special Characters which are codes for symbols and macrons etc, that should work without any special setup in the browser. Otherwise you might need to make the Hebrew text an image and insert the image into your…[Read more]

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 13 2010,04:49)Begotten is the start of a process, birth, is the end of it.My opinionThanks for that ST.