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[music4two]

Making the monkeys jump is refering to the mimickry of that species. I see lots of mimiciking Christianity, but I am very dissapointed it the lack of reality I see in many on this board.
THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE ALL.
Phoenix? You put down Jeff Benner from the very start out of ignornce or unwillingness to hear the truth. Instead you relied on the definitions of a man stuck in a dead religion that killed their own saviour. I will take a nuclear engineer who is Spirit filled and walking with Jesus anytime over that. Only a fool would chose otherwise.
To teach, I you are honestly seeking truth, then I would suggest you look elsewhere. those on this board that take it seriously are not the type that can give you truth. They are head knowledge Christians that know little about the heart relationship needed to walk with God.
Tim – I appreciate your comment, but I would say the same to you as Toteach. Look for real life outside of the internet.
Isa? I could really care less about your comments. I don't even remember any dialog between us.
Nick, You are so busy trying to keep this silly thing alive you don't even read the post you reply to. Give it up man. If it dies then good ridence.

Come on nick. Kick me off. End my temptatioon to tell you all any more truth/

[music4two]

Wooooo Hooooo! Made the monkey jump!!! Ha Ha

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2007,18:50)

Hi m42, What can you expect from monkeys? I am sure you have more to offer than just supercilious contempt. If you only come to teach and not to share in learning then have you not deemed yourself superior and unteachable? Loving your neighbour does not include such attitudes does it?

1. Did not come to teach nor have I claimed to be a teacher.
2. After months on here I have yet to see anyone honest enough with scripture or willing to go deeper then a kindergarten level Christianity. What am I supposed to learn from that? I am teachable but someone has to have something I have not dissproven 30 times over already.
3. Came here for entertainment as I have said many many times. It is becoming less and less entertaining and therefore is losing it's draw.

I am not interested in illusional Christianity which is what is most often offered on here.

Now I am done discussing it with you too. I am outta here for a season and will see if some better quality people come in another time.

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2007,23:03)

Hi m42, We are all learning-painfully perhaps-but learning and building faith.

I am sure that at least some are growing and learning, but I doubt very very much it has anything to do with this site.

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2007,21:27)

Hi m42, Who are the monkeys? All others? That is not very graceful.

With all the ungracefull things said on here and all the nonsdense, I guess I am not too concerned about it. If these sites had any purpose other then entertainment, perhaps I would take it more seriously.

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2007,00:39)

Hi m42, Where does scripture say our spirit is our personality and must be formed?

I would tell you to check out the ancient Hebrew, but you are not that serious about study, so I will just ignor the question. this site has just about worn itself out for me. especially when those like kendrch and cult buster show up. It used to be fun to make the monkeys jump but it is getting old.

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Quote (Cult Buster @ Mar. 14 2007,12:43)

JESUS IS JEHOVAH AND EQUAL WITH GOD Compare MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. With ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you. Compare JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation. With MATTHEW 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, Compare JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. With ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<< JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”} PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. TITUS 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; {RSV,NIV: “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”} Compare Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre With Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: {RSV, NIV: “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”} Compare Psa 102:24  I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Psa 102:25  Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. With HEBREWS 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: {God the Father calls the Son “Lord.” REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Arche (“Beginning”) The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 “arche” is applied to the Father, so it can't possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah's Witnesses and other heretics maintain. Compare Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen. With MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting. JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. REVELATION 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Compare REVELATION 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. With Gen 17:1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Compare 1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: With MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . . REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the rei ns and hearts: . . . Compare JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. With MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Compare DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? With LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Mat 26:63  But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Mat 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mat 26:65  Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; (The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.) Blasphemy can only be committed against God. Compare Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. With Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mar 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; Mar 1:2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Mar 1:3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch(Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Compare Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. With Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: 1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Deu 32:3  Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. 1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Exo 20:2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not; Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Joh 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Joh 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God) Jehovah said: “…and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zec. 12:10). The preceding verses (1, 4, 7, 8) identify Jehovah as the one speaking. Christ is the one who was pierced, and John 19:37 clearly tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled in His crucifixion. *EZEKIEL 34:11-12,15,22,31 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, {even} I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. (12) As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep {that are} scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day . . . (15) I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God . . . (22) Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle . . . (31) And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, {are} men, {and} I {am} your God, saith the Lord God. {cf. Ps 23:1, 80:1, 100:3, Is 40:11, Jer 23:1, 31:10} +JOHN 10:7,11,14-16,26-29 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep . . . (11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep . . . (14) I am the good shepherd, and know my {sheep}, and am known of mine. (15) As the Father knoweth me, even so I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, {and} one shepherd . . . (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave {them} me, is greater than all; and no {man} is able to pluck {them} out of my Father's hand. {cf. Ezek 34:23, Mic 5:4, Zech 13:7 w/Mt 26:31, Heb 13:20, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 7:17} *ISAIAH 40:8 . . . the word of our God shall stand for ever. +MATTHEW 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. *PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts. +HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. *ISAIAH 62:5 For {as} a young man marrieth a virgin, {so} shall thy sons marry thee: and {as} the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, {so} shall thy God rejoice over thee. {cf. Is 54:5-6, Hos 2:16-20} +REVELATION 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {cf. Mt 24:44, 25:1,6,13, Jn 3:29, Rev 21:9} *DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15} +REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16} *ISAIAH 48:17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; . . . {cf. 10:20, 43:3, 1 Sam 2:2, Ps 89:18} +ACTS 3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; . . . (14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, . . . {cf. Acts 2:27 w/ Ps 16:10, Is 49:7} *REVELATION 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: . . . {cf. Is 60:19} +REVELATION 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb {is} the light thereof. *DEUTERONOMY 32:39 . . . neither {is there any} that can deliver out of my hand. {cf. Jn 10:29} +JOHN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand. *PROVERBS 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son {in whom} he delighteth. +REVELATION 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. *PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10} +MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works. +REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. *EZEKIEL 34:17 . . . Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. +MATTHEW 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth {his} sheep from the goats: *GALATIANS 1:4-5 . . . according to the will of God and our Father: (5) To whom {be} glory for ever and ever. Amen. +2 PETER 3:18 . . . our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him {be} glory both now and for ever. Amen. {cf. Heb 13:21} *JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and {of} the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. {cf. Mt 21;31, Lk 7:28, Acts 1:3, Rom 14:17, 1 Cor 4:20, 15:50, Col 4:11, Rev 12:10} +COLOSSIANS 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated {us} into the kingdom of his dear Son: {cf. Jn 18:36, Eph 5:5, 2 Tim 4:1, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:1} *ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7} +GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ. *ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God . . . +ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. . *PSALM 71:5 For thou {art} my hope, O Lord God: . . . +1 TIMOTHY 1:1 . . . Lord Jesus Christ, {which is} our hope; *TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, +ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. *REVELATION 22:6 . . . the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel . . . +REVELATION 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches . . . *ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called {to be} an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, {cf. Mk 1:14, Rom 15:16, 1 Thess 2:2,8-9, 1 Pet 4:17} +ROMANS 15:19 . . . I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. {cf. Rom 1:16, 1 Cor 9:12, 2 Cor 2:12, 1 Thess 3:2} *1 CORINTHIANS 15:9 . . . I persecuted the church of God. {cf. 1 Cor 11:22, Gal 1:13} +MATTHEW 16:18 . . . thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; . . . +ROMANS 16:16 . . . The churches of Christ salute you. *TITUS 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, . . . {cf. Rom 12:11, Lk 4:8- “. . . him only shalt thou serve”} +ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, . . . {cf. Eph 6:6, Col 3:24; servants of both: Jas 1:1, Rev 7:3, 11:18, 19:5} *ISAIAH 43:3 For I {am} the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: . . . 2) *ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord; and beside me {there is} no saviour. 3) *ISAIAH 49:26 . . . I the Lord {am} thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 4) *HOSEA 13:4 Yet I {am} the Lord thy God . . . {there is} no saviour beside me. {cf. Ps 106:21, Is 45:21-22, 60:16, 63:8} 5) *LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 6) *1 TIMOTHY 4:10 . . . the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. {cf. 1 Tim 1:1, 2:3, 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:4, Jude 1:25} 1) #ISAIAH 49:5-6 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb {to be} his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, . . . (6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 1)+LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 2)4) +ACTS 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand {to be} a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 5) +TITUS 2:13 . . . great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 6) +2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 7) +1 JOHN 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son {to be} the Saviour of the world. 1)*ISAIAH 45:23 . . . unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {cf. 66:23} 2)2) +PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of {things} in heaven, and {things} in earth, and {things} under the earth; (11) And {that} every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ {is} Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 1)*ISAIAH 35:4 . . . behold, your God will come {with} vengeance, {even} God {with} a recompence; he will come and save you. 2) *ISAIAH 40:5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see {it} together: . . . 3) *ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him. 2)7) *JOEL 2:10-11 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: (11) And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp {is} very great: for {he is} strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord {is} great and very terrible; and who can abide it? 3)5) +2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 6) +REVELATION 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they {also} which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. {cf. Zech 12:10} 4)8) +REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 1)*PSALM 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is {judge} himself. Selah. 2) 3)*PSALM 96:13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. 3) *ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil. 4)1) +JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 2) +JOHN 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 3) +ACTS 10:42 . . . it is he which was ordained of God {to be} the Judge of quick and dead. 4) +2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge {thee} therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 5)5) +REVELATION 6:16-17 And said to the moun tains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 6)) +REVELATION 19:11,15 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him {was} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war . . . (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 1)*PSALM 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he {is} the King of glory. Selah 2)8) +REVELATION 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . . Compare Psa 102:24  I said, O my God, do not take me up in the half of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Psa 102:25  Before time You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Psa 102:26  They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall wear out like a garment; You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. Psa 102:27  But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended. With Heb 1:8  but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom; Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows.” Psa. 45:6, 7 Heb 1:10  And, “You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands. Heb 1:11  They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment, Heb 1:12  and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail. Compare Isa 6:1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Isa 6:2  Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. Isa 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. With Joh 12:36  While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Joh 12:37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: Joh 12:38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Joh 12:39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, Joh 12:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Joh 12:41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Compare Psa 7:8  The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me. Psa 7:9  Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. 1Ki 8:39  Then hear thou (Jehovah)  in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;) With Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I (Jesus) am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Thanks for the entertainment. Not much truth to it but it was funny.

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,19:54)

Hi m42, You say “His spirit (personality) had not been formed”. then you say “The wod spirit is literally breath or wind in both Old and New Testaments. The idea of the spirit being breath or wind does not detract from it being the presence of God.” So if you are to specific in the meaning of words why call spirit personality?

I was quoting. those were not my words.

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Quote (942767 @ Mar. 08 2007,23:07)

Quote (music4two @ Mar. 07 2007,15:58) Quote (942767 @ Mar. 07 2007,02:05) Hi M42: I'm having difficulty understanding “being filled with the Holy breath” in light of the following scriptures: “As the living Father hath sent me, and I LIVE BY THE FATHER (I understand by obedience to His Word): so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me”.  (John 6:57) And, “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE”. It seems to be that the Holy Spirit is more that just God's Holy breath.  Maybe I'm wrong? God Bless Hi Tim, Perhaps a better translation would herlp. The greek says Jesus lives “because” of the Father. to the hebrews breath is not just a moving of air. It represents life itself. In Genesis we see God breath life into Adam. In the story of Noah. God says he will destroy all creatures which have the breath of life in them. Job speaks of the breath of Life that is in him. the breath of God is that which gave animation and life to Adam. That life continues to us, though not directly from God as in Adam. BUT  the promary reason for my understanding is that the Hebrew word “rauch” and the greek word “pneuma” both wrongly translated Spirit over and over again literally mean breath or wind.  that is the correct translation of the word regardless what our modern English translations say. Hi M42: “The the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being”.  (Genesis 2:7) My understanding that at this point Adam was like God in that he was living being, but Adam was in innocence like a new born baby.  His spirit (personality) had not been formed. And so, what I am saying is that Holy Spirit is more than just breath of life but God's personal presence dwelling in us by his Spirit or personality, and our spirit or personality is formed by the Word of God as we learn to apply it to our daily lives.  Jesus states: “It is the Spirit that who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life”. (John 6:63) “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God”.  (Rom. 8:16) “So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit”.  (1 Co. 15:45) The spirit of obedience to God's word animates our soul even as disobedience will cause death.  “Know ye not to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom you obey, whether of sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness”.  (Rom. 6:16)  “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”. (Rom. 6:23) God Bless

“The the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being”.  (Genesis 2:7)
My understanding that at this point Adam was like God in that he was living being, but Adam was in innocence like a new born baby.  His spirit (personality) had not been formed.
And so, what I am saying is that Holy Spirit is more than just breath of life but God's personal presence dwelling in us by his Spirit or personality, and our spirit or personality is formed by the Word of God as we learn to apply it to our daily lives.  

Response —
Perhaps a better understanding would be gained by a proper translation of the terms. Understand that for the most part those who translate our English versions were caught up in the false practice of giving a personality and animation to a third person of the trinity, where one does not exist. Because of this the words “Spirit” and “Holy” have been mistranslated in all most all cases.

In Hebrew the word Holy does not have a strong mystical or even spiritual application. It simply means to be set asside for a special purpose. this concept is also carried through into the Greek use of the word.
The wod spirit is literally breath or wind in both Old and New Testaments. The idea of the spirit being breath or wind does not detract from it being the presence of God. It is the moving of God in our midst. The ancient Hebrews lived by virtue of the trade winds and planed their nomadic survival based on the winds. It was a guide to them. The wind of a man carries the idea of being the man’s character.

Let me translate these verses with the proper rendering.

Jesus states: “It is the breath who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are breath and they are life”. (John 6:63)
“The breath itself beareth witness with our character that we are the children of God”.  (Rom. 8:16)
“So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.  The last Adam became a life-giving breath”.  (1 Co. 15:45)

[music4two]

Hi toteach,

You asked —

on this journey in the first place!   ) i see a precious little girl who has a mind and will of her own already, but is not yet able – at least to my knowledge – to have “faith.”  as Jesus was made like us, i do not understand how His faith could have begun so young so as to keep Him from sin.

Response —
Let me make a few points on this matter.
First – Nick is quite right that children are covered by their parents when young.

Perhaps part of the confussion comes from a missunderstanding of “transgression of the law/torah.”

Basically the Torah/law is a set of teachings resulting in wisdom from God. These teachings were passed on from father to children and in the same way from God to his children.

“Listen, my son, to your father's instruction and do not forsake your mother's teaching [Torah].” (Proverbs 1:8)

“My son, do not forget my teaching [Torah], but keep my commands in your heart”. (Proverbs 3:1)

The purpose of a parents Torah is to teach and bring the children to maturity. If the Torah is violated out of disrespect or defiant disobedience, the child is punished. If the child desires to follow the instructions out of a loving obedience but falls short of the expectations, the child is commended for the effort and counseled on how to perform the instructions better the next time.

The actuall problem arrises not on the basis of a strick adhearance to the law but about the attitude of the person commiting the transgression.
Unlike Torah, law is a set of rules from a government and binding on a community. Violation of the rules require punishment. With this type of law, there is no room for teaching, either the law was broken with the penalty of punishment or it was not broken.

The biblical deffinition of sin is “missing the mark”. This is exactly in keeping with God’s desire to teach us through the torah. There are those who teach God as a strict disciplinarian and then add as an after thought that He is a loving Father. It should be taught in the opposite way. God does discipline but not for a guilt punishment, but to teach.
“Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD, the man you teach from your Torah”
This punishment is not based purely on the trangression of the law but rather is based on attitude. God judges by the heart. A child/child of God can, with a good heart, fail to fullfill all the torah, but is not punished but rather taught how to do it better next time. Another child/child of God defies and rebels against the parent’s/God’s torah and is punished for their attitude.

While the word keep, as in “keep the commands of God” does not mean obedience but guarding and protecting, the meaning of “break the commands of God” does not mean disobedience. The Hebrew word parar, translated as break, is the treading of grain on the threshing floor by oxen to open up the hulls to remove the seeds. To the Ancient Hebrews, breaking the commands of God was equated with throwing it on the ground and trampling on it. In both cases, keeping and breaking are related to ones attitude toward the commands. A child who disobeys his parents and is genuinely apologetic shows honor and respect to his parents. But a child who willfully disobeys with no sign of remorse has trampled on his parents teachings and deserves punishment.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_break.html

This word “break” clearly shows the importance of attitude in God’s judgements.

To bring this into perspective —
First transgression
You tell your daughter to clean her room. she tries with a good, willing heart but because of imaturity, does not do it right.

Second trangression –
You tell your daughter to clean her room and she reacts by throwing a tantrum, stomping into her room and screaming. Then instead of cleaning it up, she messes it up more.

Neither scenerio resulted in a proper cleaning of the room. By the letter of the law, both were trangressions of your directions.
As a good parent would you punish these two trangressions in the same way? Of course not! Neither does God.

Jesus never rebeled against His Father’s Torah. Scripture says he grew in wisdom and stature before man of God. Where did he learn this wisdom? He learned by being taught from His heavenly father from birth. He knew who he was and who his father was from (at least) 12 years old. He had great wisdom as depicted by teaching in the temple at 12 y/o. It seems He was being prepared personally by God for the task set before Him. It is a parent’s awesome responsibility to teach wisdom to their children. Some parents are better at it then others. Jesus did not sin, because he always operated in God’s wisdom. Children ae protected by their parents faith prior to the age of accountability. After the age of accountability, when confronted with a choice on any matter, he always relied on what His father told him to do. He always relied on the wisdom taught by God. He never chose for himself what was right or wrong. He never partook of the knowledge of Good and Evil as Adam did. It does seem impossible to us, but we were raised by imperfect parents who inadvertently taught us their own brand of wisdom. (or lack there of) For thise purpose we are to become like little children again when saved to relearn what we should have been taught in the first place. Were we still in the garden we would be learning personally from God and perfect Godly parents.

If I might offer some advice. Learn God’s wisdom and pass it unto your children. I am sure you posses much of that wisdom now. Teach it at every opportunity. As your children grow teach them to seek God’s wisdom on their own. Teach them to see God as a loving father who only desires to protect and teach his children, not as a monster with a hammer ready to smash them at their first mistake. As they can understand it, teach the proverbs to them. Teach the parables Jesus taught. Be a God unto them. They will know, trust, understand, learn and desire God in the same way you reveal these things in yourself.

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Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 09 2007,01:15)

Well M42 is the clever one with the answers. Why dont you define it M42. Or is this another one of those “trick” questions where you already have a full A4 page of the answer that were wanting.

So many people spout off opinions without proof. I am demanding proof. You don't want to accept my definitions then show me the right ones.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,21:11)

Hi M42, First we must define SIN according to scripture as I have done. All have sinned but Paul told us sin lived in him. God only judges SIN committed.

still not the question I asked. I ask to define the word “sin”. Not how you do it. Not the results of it. Not how you inherit it.
What does the word mean.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,20:18)

Hi m42, There are two. Sin that lives in us conceived of obedience to our lusts and Sin actions. We inherit the first and serving the god of this world commit the second.

Not the question I asked.

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Quote (Faith First @ Mar. 08 2007,04:36)

1Jo 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And what is the biblical definition of the word “sin”?
Does sin automatically result in punishment?

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,02:02)

Hi m42, We are meant to follow Jesus. If he is different then we cannot do so. What functionality does that have?

Very good point!

[music4two]

Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 08 2007,04:49)

Im talking about where you get your translations from.

I know you are talking about the source of the translations. As I said you got yours from a Rabbi. Rabbis of the Jewish faith or in darkness. They have been for 2000 years. Without Christ they are in darkness and yes a Christian has a much better chance to be right in his translation then any praticing Jew without Christ.
Notice what happened to those of the Jewish faith after they rejected their messiah.

Romans 11
 7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

 8just as it is written,
         “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
         EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
         DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

 9And David says,
         “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
         AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
    10″LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
         AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

Romans 11;25

 25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

2 Corinthians 3 (speaking of Israel)

 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Without Christ, they are still behind a veil and in darkness concerning the things of God.

As to the rest of your judgements, I cannot prove my innocence to you so I will not even try. You would not accept anything that denies your right to judgements of my motives. How very unfortunate for you.

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Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 08 2007,00:51)

Woah M42 You asked for the Hebrew meaning so I thought I would ask a Rabbi if he could answer it. So I let that be known to you. Now why did you ask for in your post? Quote Still want to know if anyone on here can tell me what “Keep” means, as in keep the commandments. While you are at it perhaps you can tell me what “break” the commandments means too. A reasonable person would not assume the English words portray the exact menaing of the authors wanted to show. Edited by music4two on Mar. 06 2007,23:37 ahhh i see you have edited because I know you asked for the Hebrew meaning. Well hows that for ya. Yes I did say that “let the bible interpret the bible”. But I went elsewhere because I thought you were asking a question with honesty… I never clicked that youd be a dork and only asked with sarcasm and wanted to act like a “know it all” and not give credit to the true authors!! Fine… but I would rather believe a Rabbi who is a Hebrew and was raised as a Jew and is in Judaism… more than someone who works at a nuclear plant, doesnt even go to Jewish school and isnt even a Rabbi. You rejected Strongs concordance yourself, so what are you on about? You speak of Attitude? Look at your own. Someone who re-edits their old posts to twist things around. hmm??

I did not edit about the Hebre meanings and at least I have the character to not call names. I simply added this
A reasonable person would not assume the English words portray the exact menaing of the authors wanted to show.

I would not have removed the word “Hebrew”. In fact I wish I HAD written it with that understanding, because I believe all of scripture should be understood from a Hebrew perspective. Both Old and New Testament.

It was not a trick question, but thanks for proving my point about judgementalism without knowing the heart of a person.

Give credit to the true authors? Excuse me! they are all in heraven. I am giving credit to them by understanding their culture and perspective in which they wrote. How about you?
You asked a practising Rabbi who is of the modern Jewish faith. A faith and a people that have been in darkness since rejecting their messiah. A people that have no leading of the spirit because they are not even saved and I am supposed to acknowledge them over a man that walks with Jesus christ?

ther oint of my whole post was to point out that everyone on here if fighting over Keeping or breaking the Sabbath/commandments and no one has even bothers to ascertain what those words mean. It is pointless debate for no purpose except to have phylosophical debate. Is anyone really interested in knowing the truth of what God meant?

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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,02:06)

Hi m42, Hi m42, You say “One developes Godly character by having relationship with Jesus. This is why Jesus said “If you love me (develope character through relationship) then you will keep the commandments. “   Did Jesus become like his father by associating with Him? Do we become like Jesus by just associating with him? Jn 6 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Association did not change them.

I did not say associate did I? Is relationship with your wife one of mere association? I said elationship not associate. do not missquote me.

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That is very interesting. I must admit that you make a good case. Honestly, other then for debate purposes, I really see little diference (functionally) whether Christ was filled from birth or at His baptism. I do however want to be accurate with the word and will give this further study.

[music4two]

Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 07 2007,03:42)

Hi Seeking He didnt violate it.. he made it spiritual. Do good on the Sabbath for I am Lord of the Sabbath. Is that how the scripture went? I dont know Im guessing off the top of my head. M42 Qal is to Keep… like .. to observe Hiphil is to break or violate it. Thats all the Rabbi told me Hugs Phoenix

I find it curious that you went to a Hebrew scholar outside of the bible to get the meanings of these hebrew words.
Was it not you that said and I quote
“Im sorry Youre not listening to me. I said Let the Bible interpret itself. Why would I waste my time reading what other people write. We are in the End Times NOW why am I going to waste time reading something outside the Bible. All the Answers are in the Bible. Not in some history book. I cant understand why people bring in all these other people whose names are NOT even in the bible and claim… that we should acknowledge them. NO! “

This was in response to me quoting a different Hebrew scholar. Am I supposed to acknoledge your Rabbi friend? If I operate under the same criteria as you I would have to reject him outright. I am interested in seeing you and others on this board have a clear understanding of God’s heart in His commandments.

I’m sorry to say your Rabbi friend is wrong. Rather then reject Him I will simply point out that he is wrong based on scholarship and not on preference.

The Greek word for Break is bebelos and means to permit to be trodden upon. It can be found in Matthew 12:5  “Or have you not read in the law, that on the Sabbath, the priest in the Temple break the Sabbath, and are innocent.
(This interpretation is by Strong and is in complete agreement with Jeff Benner whom I suggested as an expert)

The Greek word for Keep is tereo which means to guard and protect. It can be found in Matthew 19:17  ”And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (This interpretation is by Strong and is in complete agreement with Jeff Benner whom you rejected)

The Ancient hebrew word for Keep is shamar. The word shamar means to guard and protect and can be seen in the Aaronic blessing, May Yahweh bless you and keep (guard and protect) you.
One keeps the commands of God by guarding and protecting them.
(This interpretation is by Strong and is in complete agreement with Jeff Benner whom you rejected)
The word for break is parar. While the word keep, as in “keep the commands of God” does not mean obedience but guarding and protecting, the meaning of “break the commands of God” does not mean disobedience. The Hebrew word parar, translated as break, is the treading of grain on the threshing floor by oxen to open up the hulls to remove the seeds. To the Ancient Hebrews, breaking the commands of God was equated with throwing it on the ground and trampling on it. In both cases, keeping and breaking are related to ones attitude toward the commands.
(This interpretation is by Strong and is in complete agreement with Jeff Benner whom you rejected)
A child who disobeys his parents and is genuinely apologetic shows honor and respect to his parents. But a child who willfully disobeys with no sign of remorse has trampled on his parents teachings and deserves punishment. So it is with the teachings of God for man.

The entire concept of keeping and breaking the commandments is one of attitude. Attitude is, of course, a matter of character development. One developes Godly character by having relationship with Jesus. This is why Jesus said “If you love me (develope character through relationship) then you will keep the commandments. “Keeping” the commandments is a product of relationship not will.  No one can fully “keep” the commandments through their will. One can, however, have an attitude within yourself that honors God and His teachings.

Many of those who insist on obediance do not understand God’s desire to teach and develope His people. They do not understand His desire to build character liken His in His people. They have little vulnerability to God or their brethren and simply do not understand God’s heart. A strick adhearance based on legality and punishment leaves no room to teach or to develope. These legalist are not interested in seeing people grow in character, but are only interested in voicing their superior judgements.

For too many it is easier, of course, to just judge people on the basis of obediance. Judgement via obediance requires no personal involvement. It does not require knowing the person or being involved in his life to know his heart. It requires no discernment from God that reveals a person’s heart. This is not the way a loving father teaches and nurtures His children.

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